India Held Captive By Russia's Incompetence

[Armand2REP]

India Frustrated by Delay in Delivery of Carrier and PAK FA

Oct. 14, 2012 - 01:44PM | By VIVEK RAGHUVANSH

NEW DELHI — Despite paying more than $1.7 billion more than the contract amount for a used Russian aircraft carrier, India is in a bind: It cannot enforce a penalty for the delay of the much-needed former Admiral Gorshkov, nor can it get out of the deal.

The carrier — renamed Vikramaditya and first scheduled to arrive in 2008, then postponed until this year — will not arrive until the end of 2013, as it is having problems with its boilers and engine.

The admissions came during an Oct. 10 meeting between Indian Defence Minister A.K. Antony and his Russian counterpart, Anatoly Serdyukov. According to Indian Ministry of Defence sources, Antony was unable to convince Serdyukov to enforce a penalty on the carrier delay.

India will be dependent on the Russian carrier until its home-built carriers come online in the 2019-2020 timeframe, said Rahul Gangal, director of Aviotech Defence and Aerospace Advisory.

"There have been other alternatives proposed; however, the Ministry of Defence has chosen to steer clear of those offers [for carriers]," Gangal said. "It would also be interesting to note whether there is an official offer made for the two [British] Royal Navy carriers being built, which are facing budgetary contractions.

"Also interesting to note will be if Navantia or the Spanish government can come up with some options, because they have a well-established and proven build program, which is time-competitive, too."

The Russians rejected India's demand for a penalty, claiming the delay was due to parts bought by the Indian Navy that failed during sea trials, an Indian MoD source said.

However, no other officials would comment on what this source said.

The Indian Navy has one 50-year-old aircraft carrier — Viraat — whose service has been extended to 2017.

"The delay of the Russian aircraft carrier will impact on the plans to field two independent carrier battle groups by the second decade of the 21st century," an Indian Navy official said.

Also at the meeting, Antony formally conveyed India's concern over the carrier delay, later telling reporters that the aircraft carrier is important for India.

"India's concern is legitimate, as China last month put its first-ever aircraft carrier, the Liaoning, into service," said defense analyst Nitin Mehta.

India's autonomous auditing agency, the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG), has severely criticized the delay in the delivery of the Russian carrier.

In a report submitted to the Indian Parliament on July 24, 2009, the CAG said, "The objective of induction of [Gorshkov] as an aircraft carrier in time to bridge the gap in Indian Navy capabilities has been defeated. The decision to go in for repair and refit of a second-hand ship has become questionable, as a new aircraft carrier would have cost much less and would have had twice the lifespan."

The Indian Navy had to pay the Russians nearly $1.7 billion over and above the contracted 2005 price of refit at around $700 million.

In addition, the date of certification of a fifth-generation stealth fighter jet has been put off from 2017 to 2020, the official said. India plans to buy fifth-generation aircraft being jointly developed by India and Russia that would cost more than $25 billion.

Sources in the Indian MoD said the two defense ministers discussed the roadmap for work share between Indian and Russian scientists, and a formal agreement is likely to be inked next month.

Indians Frustrated by Delay in Delivery of Carrier | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[p2prada]

Gorky, agreed. But PAKFA???

PAKFA is only mentioned in the title, not in the article. Funny that! Especially when it was HAL which delayed the project.

Facts being twisted to demonize the Russians.

The blame lies with everybody in the Gorky saga though.

 

[Armand2REP]

PAK FA is mentioned in the article. It is pushed back from 2017 to 2020. India cannot wait any longer for Russia's incompetence!

 

[p2prada]

PAK FA is mentioned in the article. It is pushed back from 2017 to 2020. India cannot wait any longer for Russia's incompetence!

Huh! That's what I am saying. Russia had nothing to do with PAKFA delay. HAL did as IAF mentioned.

/RANT begins
See, I would actually like the facts specified straight instead of something being twisted to suit someone else's agenda.

The article was fine as long as PAKFA was not mentioned. The author is taking a cheap shot at the Russians and talking about stuff he does not understand. Now there will be people lapping it up thinking Russia delayed PAKFA when in fact their program is going as scheduled.

There is literally no criticism of Cochin delaying the Vikrant saga by 5 years either. That's what I hate about how things are being run in India and the civilian perception of defence projects in the country.

The same with your Scorpene. Mazagaon brought the delays but the media criticized the French for the delays. Do you get what I am saying?

It's like they found a scapegoat in Russia, especially when they are giving us stuff we can't even dream of developing on our own.

Simply because something shows up in print, there will be a hundred believers for it.

/RANT ends.

The PAKFA's schedule is a little ok as long as new delays are not brought in, especially considering the Russians will have inducted their version in the coming 3 years. Btw, the delay was 2 years, not 3 years. 2017 was the date given for the first flight of the final pre-production model before IOC production starts. Now it is 2019. IOC induction is expected to take place in the period 2020-22. That's where the 2020 figure came from.

 

[roma]

the real problem lies well within our own INTERNAL organizations - the whole spectrum from political through to inability to manufacture and project -manage ...... the russkies are only the tail end of the EXTERNAL part of the system but highly visible and convenient to blame .

are we taking ownership of the entrire process - we should be - we're paying

nah , were being held captive by our own incompetence , if at all .

the hub of the problem is were not manufacturing our own as presumably dragon is ?

 

[spikey360]

First and foremost, we are held captive by our own incompetence and indisciplined way of doing things.

 

[average american]

I did not think Russia would be paying for the repairs. As a matter of contract law if I request changes I am responsible for the extra cost and the delays incurred by the contractor. I would as a manger consider it only due dilligance to take into the account past completed constructions befor I engage a contractor as well as investigate its ability to completed a contract.. After seeing the complete and utter failures of Russian weapons agains the USA in Iraq and in the wars with Israel I would have already been highly skeptical. The fact that the latest missile, and subs have had major problems and even been refused by Russian Military would have been a red flag. A number of highly placed Russians as well as the ex Russian Defense minster has said that Russia is not capable of building advanced weapons. I hate to say this but I TOLD YOU SO. RUSSIAN MILITARY EQUIPMENT IS JUNK.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Russians always had the attitude that India is a permanent customer so they never
worried about delivering on time and finished orders from new markets first.

 

[Energon]

This is what happens when you don't develop an industrial base. Mind you, I said "develop" not "have". Russia "has" an industrial base but they're still paralyzed. This is because the communist junta of the Soviet Union controlled the entire industrialization process from its inception and diverted all resources to the handful of industries that suited their needs. But the Soviet Union as a whole was an entirely pre industrialized nation. This is why after the collapse of the communist junta Russia hasn't managed to do anything of significance. Point being that Russia has an industrial base but they didn't develop it.

India too replicated the Soviet model and has suffered immensely. The fundamental problem again is that the whole thing is left up to the government, a government that has legendary record of being inept, inefficient and corrupt. Good luck trusting these people with aircraft carriers and fifth generation fighters.

The experiment of centralizing progress in science and technology has failed miserably in India. Some people are under the impression that things are now changing and the system is moving toward privatization; it isn't. Handing out certificates to a handful of conglomerates who have been approved *wink wink* by bureaucrats and politicians is merely a glorified extension of the license raj.

I'm not saying that the government should completely step out, that is unrealistic. However unlike China India's strength does not lie in its government, the core strength comes from the people. Unless and until a country exploits its advantages and minimizes the effects of its disadvantages there will be no real progress.

 

[spikey360]

I did not think Russia would be paying for the repairs. As a matter of contract law if I request changes I am responsible for the extra cost and the delays incurred by the contractor. I would as a manger consider it only due dilligance to take into the account past completed constructions befor I engage a contractor as well as investigate its ability to completed a contract.. After seeing the complete and utter failures of Russian weapons agains the USA in Iraq and in the wars with Israel I would have already been highly skeptical. The fact that the latest missile, and subs have had major problems and even been refused by Russian Military would have been a red flag. A number of highly placed Russians as well as the ex Russian Defense minster has said that Russia is not capable of building advanced weapons. I hate to say this but I TOLD YOU SO. RUSSIAN MILITARY EQUIPMENT IS JUNK.

Well, good for you then, you have one less potential competitor.

I've never understood why Americans are so afraid of everything that they see contrary to their ideals. I mean, an Indian hates a Pakistani but won't be afraid of him, same goes for Chinese. However, America always raises a hue and cry about every enemy.

Oh! Iranians are developing one bomb while we have thousands. I'm so scared!
Hey, the Russians seem assertive nowadays, countering America everywhere. They have junk weapons, so what?! It scares the s**t out of me anyway!
Ooh! The Red Dragon has bought so much of our debts! They want to covertly take over our economy! Let's threaten them.
My God! Those Indians sure do seem progressively confident in their nuclear program! Let's aid Pakistan and form a counterbalance.

For a *superpower* you people are a bunch of cowards. And all the troubles you see at present, if you introspect closely, you'd find is a result of your Cowardice, Anger, Lust and Greed.

 

[average american]

Odd that some one from India would be calling americans cowards, especially after Mumbai.

 

[nrj]

India is held captive by its lack of self-reliance & not by Russia's incompetence.

 

[satish007]

Odd that some one from India would be calling americans cowards, especially after Mumbai.

You are not only coward but Also fool. Even Russian goods are junk,Indians always can go to france for good stuff or come to Chinese for ok and reasonable price stuff

 

[average american]

To me its just odd that some one from India would be calling americans cowards, especially after Mumbai. Hundreds of Indians killed and all they worth was a protest note to the UN and you call Americans Cowards. Even if India had the ability, what do you think the chances are that India would have the courage to go into the middle of Pakistan like Americans did to kill Osama bin Laden.

 

[average american]

Something you should remember about the French. Second Rule of French Warfare: "France only wins when America does most of the fighting".

I am not sure how good the military equipment of a country that never won a war unless some one else did the fighting is really going to work out. http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html

 

[satish007]

Something you should remember about the French. Second Rule of French Warfare: "France only wins when America does most of the fighting".

I am not sure how good the military equipment of a country that never won a war unless some one else did the fighting is really going to work out. Text / The Complete Military History of France

Yes,french suck,
looks Indian only option is Chinese goods

 

[ersakthivel]

the real problem lies well within our own INTERNAL organizations - the whole spectrum from political through to inability to manufacture and project -manage ...... the russkies are only the tail end of the EXTERNAL part of the system but highly visible and convenient to blame .

are we taking ownership of the entrire process - we should be - we're paying

nah , were being held captive by our own incompetence , if at all .

the hub of the problem is were not manufacturing our own as presumably dragon is ?

There is really no point in manufacturing junk like dragon does. If you have any doubt look at JF-17.It has no engine worth the while, no radar , no avionics and who will give source codes of their radar to pak for integerating chinese missiles.

The J-10 is engineered with one russian engine of a twin engined russian fighter, The russians designed the engine with acceleration rate comparable to western fighters which have single engines.

Now you get an airframe from some one else (possibily israleli lavi)and put a russian engine(which was designed for a twin engined fighter ,with matching acceleration specs of western single engined fighter) what happens to acceleration? dead slow, no one can remedy it.

A delegation of PAF visited the J-10 facilities it seems, They were impressed by all it's specs. But when the acceleration issue came up they were really disappointed.

Because if j-10 does duty on forward airfields of PAF ,the time it takes to take off and reach top speed is less than the time taken by any indian IAF plane to reach the airfield and bomb it. So technically it cannot even defend it's own airbase with full military thrust in time.

Then the PAF found the way around this problem by saying that the "J-10 IS OUR STRATEGIC ASSET, SO THAT WE WILL BASE IT IN AIRFIELDS DEEP INSIDE PAKISTAN"..

But the painful truth is that it needs more time to reach it's top speed because it is fitted with an engine that was meant for a twin engined bird of entirely different aerodynamics.

I read the above the above story some where in the net. I will try post the source latter.
Even the chinese have changed their J-10's nomenclature from fighter to bombers it seems.

The chinese can get away with anything ,because all the past wars fought by china have been started by it, whether it be korean war,vietnamese invasion, border skrimishes with russia,or the war on india.

Nobody is threatening to bomb the chines today. India doesnot have that luxury, you sholud note,India faces the prospect of two front war in a much real sense. For example the rafale reaches it's full military thrust in 4 seconds, as it is posted in this forum(citation needed).

How long it will take for russian and chinese fighters?

 

[ersakthivel]

Yes,french suck,
looks Indian only option is Chinese goods

not chinese goods.

 

[ersakthivel]

Something you should remember about the French. Second Rule of French Warfare: "France only wins when America does most of the fighting".

I am not sure how good the military equipment of a country that never won a war unless some one else did the fighting is really going to work out. Text / The Complete Military History of France

But if you ask any russian(one in four russians have lost some of their near and dear one in the world war -II) they would say americans ran to berlin only to steal the military tech of germany and occupy it!!!!!

It is we who sacrificed everything to defeat the HITLER.The americans and british steadfastedly declined to open a second front in the war with germany ,letting RUSSIANs face the brunt, what is your view on that?

The americans made away with the german jet engines, drawings, lab tech, and engineers, The key german rocket scientists were from the lot of abducted people from germany.

How come americans accuse others of copying their tech.

The german chief rocket scientist is responsible for the appollo moon mission rocket SATURN, and by the same logic american ICBMs.

Have they made more sacrifices than french,german,russians in the world war.

How many of their cities were incinerated by german bombers?

how many of their civilians killed?

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

Why are Russians so adamant about the project and why are they not completing it in time?

Why is India not putting more pressure on Russia to complete the project quickly?