India, China to hold discussions on doubling bilateral trade to $100 billion

[Tolaha]

What advantage does India IT company have? Low price, project management, language! As a computer programmer worked in China 10 years, I can tell you all these factors don't work in Chinese market.

Low price - Chinese IT programmer's salary was already lower than indians 10 years ago. Today, it would be even more lower because their income didn't increase much in this 10 years.

Project management - Well, that is where shocking indians, chinese generally think india companies have terrible project managment. Why? 1. Chinese customers change their demand quite offten (sometime it may be different from day 1 to day 2), so you have to keep flexibility in your plan; 2, even your clients change their damand, they still expect you to catch up with teh schedule, the indian companies have no experience how to handle it.

Language/culture-If an american could not understand the indian's english, do you think the chinese would love to hear that? Further, cultural difference is the biggiest problem for indians to win a contract. As one of my pre-colleagle said: "they are just too terrible" after he co-worked with an india IT company on his banking systems. In one work, you have to spend your time to study Chinese market.

Nice explanation but not much of facts really!

Infosys has worked in numerous non-English speaking countries and in a wide variety of cultures. And mind you, successfully as well.

Maybe you can follow this link to hear from someone closer to the action than you will ever be:
Narayana Murthy’s revelations in WikiLeaks | Murali

 

[agentperry]

What advantage does India IT company have? Low price, project management, language! As a computer programmer worked in China 10 years, I can tell you all these factors don't work in Chinese market.

Low price - Chinese IT programmer's salary was already lower than indians 10 years ago. Today, it would be even more lower because their income didn't increase much in this 10 years.

Project management - Well, that is where shocking indians, chinese generally think india companies have terrible project managment. Why? 1. Chinese customers change their demand quite offten (sometime it may be different from day 1 to day 2), so you have to keep flexibility in your plan; 2, even your clients change their damand, they still expect you to catch up with teh schedule, the indian companies have no experience how to handle it.

Language/culture-If an american could not understand the indian's english, do you think the chinese would love to hear that? Further, cultural difference is the biggiest problem for indians to win a contract. As one of my pre-colleagle said: "they are just too terrible" after he co-worked with an india IT company on his banking systems. In one work, you have to spend your time to study Chinese market.

if thats the case then why restricted entry. why barriers. you think IT industry of china is only dynamic, no, it industry allover world is dynamic. clients continue to change their demands and specs, even Indian companies outsourcing to Indian it companies vary their specs.
amercians dont understand Indian english and are comfortable with chinese english, give it a second thought.
iron exports banned to china, not only to china but to whole world just like china banned its rare earth metal export to the world. the explanation you have for that is the one i have for you.

IT industry is more than call center, just like manufacturing is much more than assembly line. got it. trade is growing, thats good. but we seek equal opportunity. infosys opened up its office in china is an example of greenfield operation, setting up something. Indian companies are not allowed for brownfield projects that is merger and acquisition and tieing up with chinese companies to deliver stuff to chinese companies. the biased preference given to chinese it companies should stop. India can reciprocate by downgrading or punishing chinese made products, will that settle down well with you.

chinese companies competency we have seen in international market. clients are lured by cheap chinese it products and come back within an year.

lets see what comes out of the talk.

 

[no smoking]

if thats the case then why restricted entry. why barriers. you think IT industry of china is only dynamic, no, it industry allover world is dynamic. clients continue to change their demands and specs, even Indian companies outsourcing to Indian it companies vary their specs.

Please indicate what barriers china has set up specifically for indian companies? Please give me some expamples.

amercians dont understand Indian english and are comfortable with chinese english, give it a second thought.

Did I mention about whether american would like to hear any chinese english? See, your reponse provides a good example how indian company reponse to chinese customer!

iron exports banned to china, not only to china but to whole world just like china banned its rare earth metal export to the world. the explanation you have for that is the one i have for you.

Then why china is the only country mentioned in every single news, blogs or even indian steel company's whining?

IT industry is more than call center, just like manufacturing is much more than assembly line. got it. trade is growing, thats good. but we seek equal opportunity. infosys opened up its office in china is an example of greenfield operation, setting up something. Indian companies are not allowed for brownfield projects that is merger and acquisition and tieing up with chinese companies to deliver stuff to chinese companies. the biased preference given to chinese it companies should stop. India can reciprocate by downgrading or punishing chinese made products, will that settle down well with you.

There is plenty of chinese companies were bought by US, Europe, Japan companies. Some of them are worth more than billions of dollars. I don't see anything specific for indian companies.

chinese companies competency we have seen in international market. clients are lured by cheap chinese it products and come back within an year. lets see what comes out of the talk.

Then did indian companies provide any attractive alternative? What is the value in indian products for international market? Are you suggesting the whole world is fooled by Chinese products in past 30 years? Or is that why indian companies failed to beat chinese products in past 30 years: know nothing about customers?

 

[SADAKHUSH]

One thing I would like to add to this discussion is a question to our China based forum friends. How many prisoners and Armed force personal are used as a source of cheap labour pool? The second question how many hours per day average factory worker is forced to work in order to meet delivery deadline by Chinese manufacturer's? It is all myth that you have a cheap labour. What you have is pool of slave labour. I know you will deny that. How many of the factory workers are not paid their wages on time?

All these shananigans add up to cheap labour.

 

[agentperry]

Please indicate what barriers china has set up specifically for indian companies? Please give me some expamples.



Did I mention about whether american would like to hear any chinese english? See, your reponse provides a good example how indian company reponse to chinese customer!




Then why china is the only country mentioned in every single news, blogs or even indian steel company's whining?




There is plenty of chinese companies were bought by US, Europe, Japan companies. Some of them are worth more than billions of dollars. I don't see anything specific for indian companies.



Then did indian companies provide any attractive alternative? What is the value in indian products for international market? Are you suggesting the whole world is fooled by Chinese products in past 30 years? Or is that why indian companies failed to beat chinese products in past 30 years: know nothing about customers?

the permit to establish office is the biggest hurdle to start with. all those companies who wish to sell their products in china are not been given any permit, they are asked to have a chinese partner to operate in china which will market the products in china. this has lead to a compulsive situation which requires Indian companies to have a chinese partner who are ready to go solo, but now they cant. even this is tolerable, the extortionist type of agreement they ask Indian cos to sign is actually hindering the mingling of Indian cos into chinese market. pharma companies are badly hit by such barriers.

Indian companies are not given a chance to interact with chinese customers at first place. even you living in china tell me how many Indian companies you been in contact with. on the contrary chinese companies are treated at par with any mnc. ( im talking about a chinese company like huawei and not nokia who makes product in china.)


if there are plenty of chinese companies bought up by the us, eu etc based companies then why Indians are blocked to have such brownfield projects. why mahindra given so much trouble in chinese agri business once they acquired chinese tractor company. why??

the alternatives comes in free market economy not a regulated economy like china. in international market we forayed into IT, pharma and gems and jewelry and got success, only in china they are facing trouble. why? all international customers of Indian IT, pharma cos are happy but in china we dont even have any good client base. care to explain?
no world was not fooled by chinese in past 30 years. i havent said that so at first place. when i go to an apple store or nike store i go there seeing nike brand and not made in china casted at the bottom of the shoe or printed on shoe box. with chinese products i want to highlight the products of chinese companies and not made by nokia or sony sold world wide. now dell make laptops in India and ship them to middle east so should i begin barking over Indian products in mid-east. no. dell got its own standards which will be followed by their factories at any cost be it situated in India, china or somalia.

we are talking about the access granted to Indian companies in china. read first paragraph written by me. you will get a clue of the situation.

 

[no smoking]

the permit to establish office is the biggest hurdle to start with. all those companies who wish to sell their products in china are not been given any permit, they are asked to have a chinese partner to operate in china which will market the products in china. this has lead to a compulsive situation which requires Indian companies to have a chinese partner who are ready to go solo, but now they cant. even this is tolerable, the extortionist type of agreement they ask Indian cos to sign is actually hindering the mingling of Indian cos into chinese market. pharma companies are badly hit by such barriers.

Obviously, you have to check the fact before making the conclusion. There is plenty of companies 100% owned by foreign companies in China unless you want to produce something sensitive, like high-tech, which chinese companies have no know-how. What is the problem there for indian companies? At least, you need to give me some detailed examples.

Indian companies are not given a chance to interact with chinese customers at first place. even you living in china tell me how many Indian companies you been in contact with. on the contrary chinese companies are treated at par with any mnc. ( im talking about a chinese company like huawei and not nokia who makes product in china.)

As I told you, I am living in Oz. The person who talked to indian programmer is my pre-colleague. Obviously, based on his words, Indian companies has no barrier in interacting with Chinese customers at first place.
Chinese companies were treated at par with any mnc in india? Come on, I can't remember how many times Chinese bid was cancelled or questioned based on security concerns.

if there are plenty of chinese companies bought up by the us, eu etc based companies then why Indians are blocked to have such brownfield projects. why mahindra given so much trouble in chinese agri business once they acquired chinese tractor company. why??

please send me your source.

the alternatives comes in free market economy not a regulated economy like china. in international market we forayed into IT, pharma and gems and jewelry and got success, only in china they are facing trouble. why? all international customers of Indian IT, pharma cos are happy but in china we dont even have any good client base. care to explain?

Well, if other foreign IT companies like IBM, Microsoft, HP, etc, are happy in Chinese market, don't you think that is the question should be asked india company itself?

no world was not fooled by chinese in past 30 years. i havent said that so at first place. when i go to an apple store or nike store i go there seeing nike brand and not made in china casted at the bottom of the shoe or printed on shoe box. with chinese products i want to highlight the products of chinese companies and not made by nokia or sony sold world wide. now dell make laptops in India and ship them to middle east so should i begin barking over Indian products in mid-east. no. dell got its own standards which will be followed by their factories at any cost be it situated in India, china or somalia.

There are 40% of china's annual exportation was made by chinese companies, so, how about them. Don't get me wrong, I never said chinese products were good. All I said is that Chinese companies are now focusing on low-income market.

we are talking about the access granted to Indian companies in china. read first paragraph written by me. you will get a clue of the situation.

Just as I said, give me an example with source.

 

[agentperry]

Obviously, you have to check the fact before making the conclusion. There is plenty of companies 100% owned by foreign companies in China unless you want to produce something sensitive, like high-tech, which chinese companies have no know-how. What is the problem there for indian companies? At least, you need to give me some detailed examples.



As I told you, I am living in Oz. The person who talked to indian programmer is my pre-colleague. Obviously, based on his words, Indian companies has no barrier in interacting with Chinese customers at first place.
Chinese companies were treated at par with any mnc in india? Come on, I can't remember how many times Chinese bid was cancelled or questioned based on security concerns.



please send me your source.



Well, if other foreign IT companies like IBM, Microsoft, HP, etc, are happy in Chinese market, don't you think that is the question should be asked india company itself?



There are 40% of china's annual exportation was made by chinese companies, so, how about them. Don't get me wrong, I never said chinese products were good. All I said is that Chinese companies are now focusing on low-income market.



Just as I said, give me an example with source.

google it man. the mahindra bought a tractor cos of china( no chest thumping by me) and has admitted in public that they are now facing restrictions from chinese law makers.
if there many foreign companies in china then why Indian cos are stopped from doing business or if not stopped then why so much restrictions and road blocks provided both sides have decided to open up respective markets fully.

again if you are talking about ibm and hp, they are having a greenfield project that is establish a factory and produce to export. Indian companies are facing difficulty in getting their shops established in china not factory and they want to establish shops.
infosys makes software and it solutions not keyboards and printers. its not all about hardware always.

even India got many companies who are exporting Indian stuff only and not us designed Indian made goods, for these things there is china. Indian bikes like pulsar and all are exported to more than 2 dozen nations.

but the issue is the road blocks Indian companies faces in establishing sales center in china. for R&D and factories china is showing no restrictions. this is what showed be looked upon. India is allowing chinese companies to setup their shops as well as factories in India like huawei but its reciprocation is still awaited.

 

[no smoking]

google it man. the mahindra bought a tractor cos of china( no chest thumping by me) and has admitted in public that they are now facing restrictions from chinese law makers.

I tryied. So far, the only thing I got is that they already acquire an chinese compay and setting up their production base in China.

http://www.mahindratractorworld.com/aboutus.aspx

"Another big leap took us past the Great Wall of China. We acquired Jiangling Motor Co. to form Mahindra China Tractor Company Ltd. (MCTCL). At present, MCTCL has an annual production capacity of 8000 tractors. The 18-35 HP tractors manufactured here cater to domestic as well as overseas markets."

So, please provide your source.

if there many foreign companies in china then why Indian cos are stopped from doing business or if not stopped then why so much restrictions and road blocks provided both sides have decided to open up respective markets fully.

The reasons I can come up with are: indian companies didn't prepare well for their business in the china, they didn't research chinese market and law, they didn't develop goog relationship with local chnese customers, they didn't realize what is the difference between china and west on the market strategy. The biggiest disadvantage for indian companies is that they cannot find many experience enough india-born chinese to creat the bridge between them and chinese while those western-born chineses played an active role in western companies.

again if you are talking about ibm and hp, they are having a greenfield project that is establish a factory and produce to export. Indian companies are facing difficulty in getting their shops established in china not factory and they want to establish shops.
infosys makes software and it solutions not keyboards and printers. its not all about hardware always.

It shows you have no idea what western companies are doing in chinese market. These western companies not only export their product from china, they also provide service including system designing for chinese. For myself, I personally participated some meeting with IBM regarding their aviation system for Beijing airport. They won that contract of 9 billions RMB in 1998. What surprised me was the representive and experts of IBM were american-chinese.

but the issue is the road blocks Indian companies faces in establishing sales center in china. for R&D and factories china is showing no restrictions. this is what showed be looked upon. India is allowing chinese companies to setup their shops as well as factories in India like huawei but its reciprocation is still awaited.

You still failed to identify these restrictions are aiming at india only or every country.

 

[agentperry]

I tryied. So far, the only thing I got is that they already acquire an chinese compay and setting up their production base in China.

Agricultural Tractors | Farm Equipment Manufacturers - Mahindra Tractors

"Another big leap took us past the Great Wall of China. We acquired Jiangling Motor Co. to form Mahindra China Tractor Company Ltd. (MCTCL). At present, MCTCL has an annual production capacity of 8000 tractors. The 18-35 HP tractors manufactured here cater to domestic as well as overseas markets."

So, please provide your source.



The reasons I can come up with are: indian companies didn't prepare well for their business in the china, they didn't research chinese market and law, they didn't develop goog relationship with local chnese customers, they didn't realize what is the difference between china and west on the market strategy. The biggiest disadvantage for indian companies is that they cannot find many experience enough india-born chinese to creat the bridge between them and chinese while those western-born chineses played an active role in western companies.



It shows you have no idea what western companies are doing in chinese market. These western companies not only export their product from china, they also provide service including system designing for chinese. For myself, I personally participated some meeting with IBM regarding their aviation system for Beijing airport. They won that contract of 9 billions RMB in 1998. What surprised me was the representive and experts of IBM were american-chinese.




You still failed to identify these restrictions are aiming at india only or every country.

the only contract that bank of china gave to any Indian company was way back in 2007. since then chinese domestic it industry grew many fold touching 147 billion dollar domestic revenue and 18 billion dollar foreign export.
hcl is an Indian company providing the similar solution like ibm worldwide and infosys is handling nasdaq, do shanghai stock exchange work on diff principle as compared to world markets.
you are asking of link, there is full blown debate going on between Indian and chinese officials. if you dont live in china then may be you are not aware of it. just like you were accusing us of many chinese firms not awarded contracts, its because of their sleazy performance, chinese generator trips in 7-8 months whereas Indian made generators like by L&T and bhel are going on for 12-13 months without problems. then i can say chinese dont have any knowledge of Indian working environment. chinese pumps malfunctioned in fukushima plant of japan( after the nuke disaster) so chinese dont know the jap's worling conditions.
it may go on till nowhere.

if Indian products are accepted in us, eu and other parts of world. if Indian companies get adapted to american european working style then getting chinese feel isnt a big trouble for them.

my point is that your govt is not allowing Indian companies to do business related activities like selling the goods of Indian origin( IT, pharma and agro based). its baseless allegation that Indian companies who adapted us, eu working style are facing trouble in accommodating chinese way of doing business.
they(ccp) are not giving what they promised to but want the generous treatment from Indian govt.
your claim that Indian it industry cant function in china is like saying china cant make good cellphones for India. just like china proved world of its semiconductor prowess India too proved its prowess in world it stage.

 

[no smoking]

[

the only contract that bank of china gave to any Indian company was way back in 2007. since then chinese domestic it industry grew many fold touching 147 billion dollar domestic revenue and 18 billion dollar foreign export.
hcl is an Indian company providing the similar solution like ibm worldwide and infosys is handling nasdaq, do shanghai stock exchange work on diff principle as compared to world markets.
you are asking of link, there is full blown debate going on between Indian and chinese officials. if you dont live in china then may be you are not aware of it.

You are accusing Indian companies received unfair treatment in China while failing to provide any evidence or link. In the meantime, the link I give to you prove that your example is wrong.

just like you were accusing us of many chinese firms not awarded contracts, its because of their sleazy performance, chinese generator trips in 7-8 months whereas Indian made generators like by L&T and bhel are going on for 12-13 months without problems. then i can say chinese dont have any knowledge of Indian working environment. chinese pumps malfunctioned in fukushima plant of japan( after the nuke disaster) so chinese dont know the jap's worling conditions.
it may go on till nowhere.

That is quit cheap claim, isn't it? I goolged it but find nothing to support about your words. On the contrast, I find a source saying chinese generator is performing better than at least one of indian suppliers.

China power gear better than Bhel's - Times Of India

if Indian products are accepted in us, eu and other parts of world. if Indian companies get adapted to american european working style then getting chinese feel isnt a big trouble for them.

Your business works well in one place doesn't mean it could be good in another place. As I pointed out you competence advantages are useless in Chinese market. Just I said, Indian companies have long way to go in Chinese market. It takes most of western companies almost 10 years to figure out, do you really believe Indian companies can get it right in 3-5 years?

my point is that your govt is not allowing Indian companies to do business related activities like selling the goods of Indian origin( IT, pharma and agro based). its baseless allegation that Indian companies who adapted us, eu working style are facing trouble in accommodating chinese way of doing business.
they(ccp) are not giving what they promised to but want the generous treatment from Indian govt.

My point is you have no evidence to prove it. The following is a quote may prove you are wrong:
Indian companies in China to ramp up operations after Sanya meeting - Economic Times
"Over 100 Indian companies run their operations in China. "Some of our clients have acknowledged the provincial Chinese governments' support for their businesses and are planning further expansion based on these positives," Singapore-based lawyer with Dacheng Central Chambers LLP Rahul Singh Talwar said."

your claim that Indian it industry cant function in china is like saying china cant make good cellphones for India. just like china proved world of its semiconductor prowess India too proved its prowess in world it stage.

No, I claim that india IT industry has not get enough experience/knowledge regarding Chinese market yet.