India-China: The real military equation

[mikhail]

in a word, India has no chance to win a long term war against china,because its military indsutry can not arm its troops in a long term war.

and who told you so!our OFB is manufacturing around 90K INSAS at present,so in case of a war its quite safe to assume that it can manufacture at least over a million assault rifles a year and regarding bullets well nowadays our OFB s manufacturing bullets of literally all calibres like 5.56mm,7.62mm,12.7mm etc!so in the event of a long drawn war with China our forces won't be exhausted as the OFB will continue to supply them with bullets and guns!and although INSAS may not be a world class AR but still at the end of the day its a decent AR and can be used to a deadly effect by our soldiers.
now lets come to the human resource available to us.India has got a reserve force of around a million men at any given time because of the NCC.each year NCC(National Cadet Corp) trains at least 2,00,000 men and women.so they'll be our reserve force at the time of the war.
now lets talk about missiles and SAM.we are manufacturing our own SAM Akash for the last couple of years,so in case of a war we won't be depending on foreign help in this matter.same goes with the missiles as India is indigenously manufacturing both the BRAHMOS cruise missile and the BARAK SAM.
next comes the Tanks.well OFB is quite capable to produce at least 50 Arjun MK-1 each year which can be increased to a couple of hundreds in the case of a full fledged war.
the last thing is that OFB has 39 factories under it and all of them are scattered throughout our territories and most of them are in the Southern part of India.so in case of a war even if the PLAAF manages to bomb a few of them whch are situated in N.India it won't be a major problem for us!
now comes the most important question,in case of a full fledged war is PLAN capable enough to defend the sea trading route of china in the IOR which incidentally passes very near to our Andaman & Nicobar islands because afaik currently nobody has the capability to challenge the superiority of the Indian Navy in the IOR(other than U.S.N. of course)?

 

[Decklander]

In India, Gun making is a cottage industry. Pls check how many illigal arms are made in India every year. And that too copies of AK-47s. We can, in case of war, shift all our weapon making to our villages.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

In India, Gun making is a cottage industry. Pls check how many illigal arms are made in India every year. And that too copies of AK-47s. We can, in case of war, shift all our weapon making to our villages.

I always have heard that Pakistan was known for that. If there is some one in India who can make a Browning Automatic Rifle M-1918 for me I would like to know about it.

M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Decklander]

I always have heard that Pakistan was known for that. If there is some one in India who can make a Browning Automatic Rifle M-1918 for me I would like to know about it.

M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Come to India and go to either Ludhiana or Bihar or UP or MP or any place in India. Pls bring a model of the gun that you want to be made. It shud be a working model or its complete designs. The local blacksmiths will make it for you. Last time I heard that an englishman came to India to get a part made for his really old RR car. The old sikh in Ludhiana agreed to make it and asked him to come back after seven days. When this guy went to collect the part, to his horror he found that the part was broken exactly like the one he had brought with him. So he told this old sikh that he can't take the part as it is broken exactly like his part.
You know what the sikh replied? he said," I created the complete part within 24 hrs but it took me additional six days to break it exactly the way your part is broken". That is our ability to copy within villages, far beyond chinese.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

in a word, India has no chance to win a long term war against china,because its military indsutry can not arm its troops in a long term war.

With the world's largest arms suppliers already supplying arms things can ramp up overnight.
(Russia,France,Israel,USA)

 

[t_co]

Come to India and go to either Ludhiana or Bihar or UP or MP or any place in India. Pls bring a model of the gun that you want to be made. It shud be a working model or its complete designs. The local blacksmiths will make it for you. Last time I heard that an englishman came to India to get a part made for his really old RR car. The old sikh in Ludhiana agreed to make it and asked him to come back after seven days. When this guy went to collect the part, to his horror he found that the part was broken exactly like the one he had brought with him. So he told this old sikh that he can't take the part as it is broken exactly like his part.
You know what the sikh replied? he said," I created the complete part within 24 hrs but it took me additional six days to break it exactly the way your part is broken". That is our ability to copy within villages, far beyond chinese.

Except the DRDO still can't make a decent fighter jet, after nearly 25 years of trying. Copying a car part and copying high-performance military equipment are two different things.

Although the simple nature of most small arms does mean that India faces severe internal security challenges if what @Decklander says is true.

 

[Known_Unknown]

in a sino-india war, Chinese force would stand lots of perhaps defeats and restore its troops at once,because its capable military industry can produce enough weapons and its huge population can provide enough soilders.

However, indian troops would hardly recover from one defeat or long-term wearing war,because its weapons stock wears out soon and its defence industry can hardly rearm the restore troops..

You're right. India has historically maintained two weeks' worth of supplies in terms of weapons, ammo etc. In the past two decades, this may have gone up to 5 or 6 weeks' worth. However, India is no superpower-if the war stretches beyond a couple of months, the weapon and ammo stores will run out, logistics will become a nightmare and the war will quickly be lost.

If this were to be a border skirmish like in 1962, then IA could hold up against a Chinese attack and surely be able to retaliate. However, if China decided on a large scale invasion of NE India, then the only way India would be able to effectively counter such an invasion would be through the threat of nuclear weapons.

If there's one thing I'm sure of, it is that the Chinese would never sacrifice Beijing or Shanghai in order to acquire NE India.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Our basic are made in India which include all kind of small arms to logistics so does cruise /balletic missiles in tactical affair,

But our strength does not lie in numbers nor Weapons but mainly strategic emplacement in both land, sea and Air we have edge over Chinese..

However, indian troops would hardly recover from one defeat or long-term wearing war,because its weapons stock wears out soon and its defence industry can hardly rearm the restore troops..

 

[Known_Unknown]

Our basic are made in India which include all kind of small arms to logistics so does cruise /balletic missiles in tactical affair,

But our strength does not lie in numbers nor Weapons but mainly strategic emplacement in both land, sea and Air we have edge over Chinese..

The production and assembly lines for indigenously manufactured equipment are so outdated, they are still stuck in the 1950's. The assembly line at HAL makes what, 20 Tejas LCA per year? In a war we need massive industries churning out hundreds of jets, thousands of trucks, APC's and tanks and millions of rounds of ammo per year. In a mixed economy like India, this kind of effort is only possible through outsourcing of this manufacturing to the private sector.

However corruption coupled with strategic blindness ensures that this will never happen.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Agreed..

But my point was towards basic tools, that means trucks = Logistics, Small arms ( Rifles, LMG, Marksman Rifle, Rocket launchers, ATGM, Pistol ), Arty ( Tube, Rocket, Cruise Missiles ) ..

Remember with China its all about high altitude, Means lesser tanks / APC, Gunships have issues so does fighter deploying PGM from such altitudes, We had SU-30/MIG-29 and other but only Mirage-2000 worked in those altitudes..

The production and assembly lines for indigenously manufactured equipment are so outdated, they are still stuck in the 1950's. .

 

[badguy2000]

and who told you so!our OFB is manufacturing around 90K INSAS at present,so in case of a war its quite safe to assume that it can manufacture at least over a million assault rifles a year and regarding bullets well nowadays our OFB s manufacturing bullets of literally all calibres like 5.56mm,7.62mm,12.7mm etc!so in the event of a long drawn war with China our forces won't be exhausted as the OFB will continue to supply them with bullets and guns!and although INSAS may not be a world class AR but still at the end of the day its a decent AR and can be used to a deadly effect by our soldiers.
now lets come to the human resource available to us.India has got a reserve force of around a million men at any given time because of the NCC.each year NCC(National Cadet Corp) trains at least 2,00,000 men and women.so they'll be our reserve force at the time of the war.
now lets talk about missiles and SAM.we are manufacturing our own SAM Akash for the last couple of years,so in case of a war we won't be depending on foreign help in this matter.same goes with the missiles as India is indigenously manufacturing both the BRAHMOS cruise missile and the BARAK SAM.
next comes the Tanks.well OFB is quite capable to produce at least 50 Arjun MK-1 each year which can be increased to a couple of hundreds in the case of a full fledged war.
the last thing is that OFB has 39 factories under it and all of them are scattered throughout our territories and most of them are in the Southern part of India.so in case of a war even if the PLAAF manages to bomb a few of them whch are situated in N.India it won't be a major problem for us!
now comes the most important question,in case of a full fledged war is PLAN capable enough to defend the sea trading route of china in the IOR which incidentally passes very near to our Andaman & Nicobar islands because afaik currently nobody has the capability to challenge the superiority of the Indian Navy in the IOR(other than U.S.N. of course)?

as I know, during Kagil conflict, India's 152 MM cannon shell stock soon wore out and had to import such cannon shells urgently ........

If India arm industry even can not deal with such a small conflict,how can it deal with the massive war against CHina??????

 

[Kunal Biswas]

India use 155mm not 152mm, During those days there were no manufaturing of 155mm rounds in India, After war home grown 155mm rounds are produced..

Most of your comment shows your insight knowledge about Indian armed forces, You dont and cannot play massive over 8500 meters above sea level..

as I know, during Kagil conflict, India's 152 MM cannon shell stock soon wore out and had to import such cannon shells urgently ........

If India arm industry even can not deal with such a small conflict,how can it deal with the massive war against CHina??????

 

[DivineHeretic]

as I know, during Kagil conflict, India's 152 MM cannon shell stock soon wore out and had to import such cannon shells urgently ........

If India arm industry even can not deal with such a small conflict,how can it deal with the massive war against CHina??????

Point 1: India does not operate 152mm Howitzers.

Point 2: Never after the WW2 had such massive and sustained artillery barrage been conducted by any army until Kargil. Even in WW2, such freakish levels of concentrated battery fire were a rarity. The IA expended over 250,000 shells in Kargil. Tell me if it is a small number.

Point 3: The artillery crews were not accustomed to the rare atmosphere at the heights of Kargil in the initial stages. The guns often oveshot the designated target, resulting in horrendous accuracy rates. The accuracy improved by late campaign when gunners went into direct fire mode.

 

[badguy2000]

Point 1: India does not operate 152mm Howitzers.

Point 2: Never after the WW2 had such massive and sustained artillery barrage been conducted by any army until Kargil. Even in WW2, such freakish levels of concentrated battery fire were a rarity. The IA expended over 250,000 shells in Kargil. Tell me if it is a small number.

Point 3: The artillery crews were not accustomed to the rare atmosphere at the heights of Kargil in the initial stages. The guns often oveshot the designated target, resulting in horrendous accuracy rates. The accuracy improved by late campaign when gunners went into direct fire mode.

1. you know little about postwar wars......the artilery barrage during korea war was much more massive than Kagil so called.....

the artillary barrage during Kingmen event(1959,between PRC and Taiwan) and Sino-vietnam war(1979) were both much more massive than Kargil....the artilery barrage duirng MD war and Iran-Iraq war were also quite massive..

BTW, over 470,000 shells were expended by PRC and 125,000 shells were expended by Taiwan during Kingmen conflict (1959).
Of them,40,000 shellls were expended by PRC in the frist 2 hours.

2. the low accuragcy of artillery just shows that Indian army lacked of decent C4SIR system and could not provide enough information of targets for its artillery...

 

[badguy2000]

BTW,during the Shangganling battle of Korea war(Operation Showdown called by USA),2.3 million shells were expended at a 3.4 square-KM large area during 43 days....

 

[Kunal Biswas]

If you dont have clue, Sit and read then comment..

Rarity of air with trajectory of round in relation to temperature so does wind, all natural causes, same effect is also with small arms rounds in those heights..

2. the low accuragcy of artillery just shows that Indian army lacked of decent C4SIR system and could not provide enough information of targets for its artillery...

 

[badguy2000]

If you dont have clue, Sit and read then comment..

Rarity of air with trajectory of round in relation to temperature so does wind, all natural causes, same effect is also with small arms rounds in those heights..

well, UAV and radar can detect the location of enemy,and send the information to artillery by data link or satellites......then artillery reacts and destroy the enemy according to the target information.....


if the automation tech is decent enough, the data_transmission-lock-fire-destroy can be finished in minutes, if not in seconds...


however, Kagil conflicts shows that India army had no UAV detecting the location of enemy....and its artillery also could not receive the data of enenmy by datalinks....

the mode of India artillery still stayed in pre-information era....its reaction speed has been left far behind.

obviously, India lag behinds as for informationizing its artillery.....


BTW,such a promopt " data_transmission-lock-fire-destroy" in minutes is just what PLA has been carries out in the past decade...


PLA has advanced a lots....its old artillery almost all has been upgaded with last datalinks and aumotion tech....

 

[Virendra]

well, UAV and radar can detect the location of enemy,and send the information to artillery by data link or satellites......then artillery reacts and destroy the enemy according to the target information.....


if the automation tech is decent enough, the data_transmission-lock-fire-destroy can be finished in minutes, if not in seconds...


however, Kagil conflicts shows that India army had no UAV detecting the location of enemy....and its artillery also could not receive the data of enenmy by datalinks....

the mode of India artillery still stayed in pre-information era....its reaction speed has been left far behind.

obviously, India lag behinds as for informationizing its artillery.....

Kargil was 14 years back in 1999.
China hasn't seen a decent battle since 1979, so they don't need to lecture us.

 

[badguy2000]

Kargil was 14 years back in 1999.
China hasn't seen a decent battle since 1979, so they don't need to lecture us.

well, here is just an attention:

the informationization of PLA is advancing much faster than most people think,including most people here.

with the finish of BDS(beidou satellite navigationsystem)+ soaring UAV tech+datalinks tech, the scale and speed of PLA"s weapon informazation progress ourperforms anyone else,except USA.the mode of PLA;s artilllery has experience revolution upgrade....

however,whether India or Russia have been left far behind in the military information tech revolution ..
the fight mode of India artillery is not different that 20 years ago

the reaction speed of Indian artillery is not quite different from that 20 years ago too.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

BTW,during the Shangganling battle of Korea war(Operation Showdown called by USA),2.3 million shells were expended at a 3.4 square-KM large area during 43 days....

Battle of Triangle Hill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Battle of Triangle Hill, also known as Operation Showdown or the Shangganling Campaign (Chinese: 上甘岭战役; pinyin: Shàng Gān Lǐng Zhàn Yì),[nb 3] was a protracted military engagement during the Korean War. The main combatants were two United Nations infantry divisions, with additional support from the United States Air Force, against elements of the 15th and 12th Corps[nb 2] of the People's Republic of China. The battle was part of American attempts to gain control of "The Iron Triangle", and took place from October 14 – November 25, 1952....

At noon on October 30, the 15th Corps bombarded the Koreans with 133 large-caliber guns, 22 rocket launchers and 30 120 mm heavy mortars in the largest Chinese artillery operation of the Korean War...

The Battle of Triangle Hill was the biggest and bloodiest contest of 1952.[11] After 42 days of heavy fighting, the Eighth Army had failed to gain the two hill masses that were its original goal.[82] For the Chinese, on the other hand, not only did the 15th Corps stop the UN attacks at Triangle Hill, the assaults conducted by the 44th Division on the Pyongyang front also resulted in Jackson Heights' capture on November 30.[83] Although the Chinese had suffered 11,500 casualties with many units decimated during the battle, its ability to sustain such losses had slowly exhausted the US Eighth Army over two months of attrition.[58] The PVA High Command viewed the victory as vindication that attrition was an effective strategy against the UN forces,[84] while the Chinese became more aggressive on the armistice negotiation and the battlefield.

Attrition must be the Chinese strategy today as well, I would guess. in an all out war.