India-China relations worse than in 1962!

Discussion in 'Politics & Society' started by Oracle, Dec 27, 2010.

  1. Oracle

    Oracle New Member

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    'Those who know China would not be complacent enough to think that the Chinese threat is an illusion,' says T P Sreenivasan.

    The bewildering questions that haunt mankind, like 'who?' and 'when?', may have nothing to do with the names of Chinese leaders Hu and Wen, but they bewilder us as much today as the eternal questions always did.

    Even the best India [ Images ]n minds are unable to fathom the intentions and inclinations of the duo, which is poised to take over the leadership of the world. After the latest Wen visit, it is no more a question whether there will be a confrontation between India and China, but 'when' it will take place and 'who' the dramatis personae will be when it occurs.

    We have assurances from those who know China well that 1962 will not happen again. They contend that China is no more an isolated dragon, learning the art of breathing fire into the neighbourhood. As it has grown huge and powerful, it has become domesticated and responsible and would like to tango with the elephant. The elephant can relax in the thought that the dragon will not step on its toes or its fiery breath will not incinerate it.

    But there is one condition: The elephant has to tango to the tune of the dragon. The dragon, in the meantime, grows big enough to swallow the elephant at short notice. But we are also assured that the dragon is not as strong as it appears and it has bad entrails, which may afflict it at any time.

    The year 2010 is certainly not 1962. At that time, there was only a border dispute and the presence of the Dalai Lama [ Images ] to provoke a war. Today, those two still remain and China misses no opportunity to remind us that there was 'a certain unpleasantness' in the relationship some time in the past.

    According to our calculations, China still occupies 38,000 square kilometres of Indian territory in Ladakh and another 5,000 square kilometres, ceded to it by Pakistan in Kashmir. Nothing has changed in that situation since the devastating defeat of 1962.

    On the other hand, there is much at the close of 2010 which should cause us concern. In 2010, 1,600 km of the border between India and China suddenly disappeared from Chinese maps, which amounts to nothing but handing over Kashmir to Pakistan. It is not even a disputed territory anymore. One has to see whether China has extended its border with Pakistan by the same extent.

    In 1962, China had not gifted Pakistan with nuclear weapons. In 2010, China has added two more nuclear reactors to a country which has the fastest growing nuclear arsenal in the world.

    In 1962, the people of Jammu and Kashmir [ Images ] and those who worked there could get Chinese visa on their Indian passports. Today, they have to use Chinese staples to attach themselves to their motherland.

    In 1962, China did not characterise India-China relations as fragile, but in 2010, China warns us that it is so fragile that India should take on the responsibility to not let it break.

    India and China were not incommunicado in the years preceding 1962. Prime ministers met and talked, but China gave no inkling of its intention to take the law into its own hands. The dozen meetings our prime minister had with Prime Minister Wen, including the one at the end of 2010, should give us no cause for comfort.

    Stung by India's attendance at the Oslo ceremony, Prime Minister Wen made it a point not to concede an inch on the core issues of concern to India. Is there any precedent for such a result in previous meetings?

    The trend of 2010 was for the most powerful States in the world to come to India to sign contracts, which could have been signed at other levels. In fact, many of those contracts were finalised years ago at the level of experts. President Barack Obama [ Images ] got %$15 billion, President Nicolas Sarkozy [ Images ] got $16 billion and Prime Minister Wen Jiabao got even more. President Dmitri Medvedev must be having his own package to carry home.

    The friendliest among them all was the one who got the least, Prime Minister David Cameron [ Images ] of the UK, who put Pakistan on notice for terrorism against India in so many words. President Obama at least reprimanded Pakistan for giving safe havens to terrorists and expressed his hope that one day India would be a permanent member of the Security Council. President Sarkozy expressed dismay that India was not on the Security Council as yet.

    All of them sang for their supper, but Prime Minister Wen took the contracts and gave nothing in return. No opposition to Pakistani terrorism, no talk of permanent membership of the Security Council. He cannot even do without staples! The increase in trade envisaged ($100 billion by 2015) will benefit China more than India. Unlike the others, he did not think it was necessary to make political concessions for economic benefits.

    Indian assertiveness in response too is a far cry from 1962. At that time, India had just completed its mission to get the People's Republic of China its rightful place in the world, having even declined the permanent seat in the Security Council offered to it instead of China. We had not challenged Chinese suzerainty over Tibet [ Images ].

    India had never provoked China even to the extent of taking the position we have taken in 2010 that if Tibet is important for China, Jammu and Kashmir is equally important for India.

    Prime Minister Wen offered the panacea of trade for all the ills in the relationship. To think that the situation today is better than that of 1962, one has to be an optimist with a vengeance. Perhaps, war clouds are not gathering over the Himalayas because of the nuclear status of the two countries. Perhaps, the future war will be in cyberspace and there will be no clouds to detect.

    We could take comfort in the fact that China's rise is peaceful and the dragon is more than willing to tango with the elephant. We may also take comfort in the fact that we are cooperating with China in Doha, Copenhagen and Cancun. Otherwise, those who know China would not be complacent enough to think that the Chinese threat is an illusion.

    'Grandpa Wen' played with the children and spread sunshine and cheer. But his visit was a clear signal that, if anything, India-China relations are worse in 2010 than it was in 1962.

    T P Sreenivasan is a former ambassador of India to the United Nations, Vienna, and a former governor for India at the International Atomic Energy Agency, Vienna. He is currently the director general, Kerala International Centre, Thiruvananthapuram.

    Source : Rediff.com
     
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  3. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

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    Because of bungling fools in Delhi, we already had to face hell once 48 years back. When will these idiots understand that Chinese are not as short-sighted, weak and individualistic as our politicians? Sikkim had almost had it had it not been for the troops and villagers in adjoining areas who tried their best to fight with what they had. I don't know when GOI will come out of their China appeasement policy and seriously start building armed forces up to face a potential PLA threat. We are going the pace of a snail compared to the Chinese.
     
  4. Oracle

    Oracle New Member

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    /\/\/\ We have everything, it's just the lack of future vision.
     
  5. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

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    WW2 weapons of Indian Army compared to fully automatic Soviet-armed PLA. Sickles and scythes in the hands of locals who took some initiative to ward off the bordering invasion thanks to the not-so-popular Chogyal we had even then. You call that everything? Yes I agree in terms of courageous people and dedicated patriots we have no shortage but today's wars are not fought alone on valour; men need machines that IA and IAF lacked. Heck! that idiot Nehru didn't even allow IAF to participate in for the "fears" of PLAAF retaliation. We had the finest soldiers who were beaten back only because Nehru wanted to "create a Gandhian peaceful nation" and refused arms offers from both USSR and USA at that time.

    Many declassified files and articles have been written on the issue and many of our previous generations know this. The airy fairy dreamy romanticism of Nehru cost us 19,000 sq.Kms of east Ladakh. Today except for nukes and theatre of warfare, nothing has changed. We are still in the same ratio that we were with PLA at that time. What we should have been proficient in 15 years ago, we are beginning to learn those tactics, manufacturing capabilities and methods now.
     
  6. civfanatic

    civfanatic Retired Moderator

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    Nothing has changed? We are in the same ratio with the PLA that we were before? Can you provide some source for this?
     
  7. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

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    Okay let's see: minus the nuclear advantage what are the things that we are likely to face:

    1- The People's Liberation Army

    [​IMG]

    - Latest kevlar protection equipment-- lightweight, indigenous, effective
    - Latest multi-mode assault rifle-- modern, indigenous and produced en masse
    - Latest lightweight headgear -- effective, protects against bullets

    PLAN Marines

    [​IMG]

    The picture says it all---- all indigenous, cheap, effective, and capacity to produce to any level

    PLAN commandos

    [​IMG]

    Should I explain here?

    PLAAF J-11B
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    We have 270 MKIs for TWO nations especially in current scenario of 2-front war. They have more than 500 of these and capable to produce as many more when needed and that too against ONE India. Where have we reached in the "MRCA mother-of-all-deals" again? And Tejas (final piece as desired by IAF not MK1 or mk2)?

    PLAN

    [​IMG]

    PLAN has 62 of these. Even if we estimate 50% of these to be obsolete, they still have 31 newer ones. and 10 of which are nuclear missile armed. How many SSKs we have NOW? 16 of which 6 are obsolete and Arihant has not even been painted in IN's color.

    Tibet railways--infrastructure

    [​IMG]

    Fastest ways to transport troops to forward areas.

    Ballistic and cruise missiles with long range

    [​IMG]

    Might not be advanced enough if you want to undercut it, but thousands of these. Well?
    ___________________________

    In short, whatever we have to BUY from outside, they can make as many as they want during wartime.


    So tell me.... if we remove the nuclear factor and the courage and will of our soldiers from this equation, where according to you do we stand if we were to fight a war RIGHT NOW?
     
  8. civfanatic

    civfanatic Retired Moderator

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    ^^Dude, stop fear-mongering and going off on a tangent. You said that the ratio between our forces and the PLA was the same as it was in 1962. I don't believe that, so I asked for a source. I'm assuming you can't provide one.

    If you want India to match China on every single piece of military equipment, it's not going to happen. Historically, the Chinese have focued on quantity (though that is changing fast) and we on quality. With that being said, we are far, far more prepared now than we were in 1962. That is undeniable. Even China knows it. Proof? There hasn't been a single major skirmish on the Sino-Indian border since 1987.

    We have two fronts to worry about, yes. How many fronts does China have? You think that their entire army, navy, air force are focused on India? Be realistic. The PLA's priorities are, in rough order of importance: Taiwan, Vietnam/South China Sea, North Korea, Japan/East China Sea, and Russia. India is a distant concern for them. This is a fact.

    This is irrevelant. Any future Sino-Indian war will last only weeks, if not days.

    Where do we stand right now? We are more than capable of defending the entire Northeast from a PLA invasion. Even in case of a breach in our defensive lines, the PLA lacks the logistics capacity to advance too far into our territory; the deeper they go, the more vulnerable they will become. If need be, the IN is also capable of choking Chinese supplies in the Malacca Straits to hasten a ceasefire, though I doubt it would come to that. All of this is not my opinion alone, but that of dedicated China watchers, including ones that were once on this forum.

    Quite frankly, I am tired of repeating myself on every China fear-mongering thread.
     
  9. kickok1975

    kickok1975 Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Dragon and Elephant are currently not in their best relationship, no doubt about it. But it doesn’t mean our relationship are worse than 1962.

    First, unlike 1962, no war is going to break in foreseeable future. Skirmish might happen but both countries know the consequence of a full scale war and will restrain themselves on it. India and China are on fast track of development and economy is top priority.

    Second, no matter how dumb you think GOI or Chinese government is, they are definitely smarter than 1962 government in both countries. At that time China was busy exporting revolutionary ideologies while her own people starving and India’s first prime minister was struggling in dilemma of national policy. Today’s GOI and CCP are pragmatist. They will shake hands and smiling as long as there is interest to exchange. And they do have more interest to share. You may claim GOI is a coward, but what courage do you expect them to show: Spend 100 billion on military which could have been used on more important project or give weapons to Japan, Vietnam while they can buy better one from US anyway? Or openly join US comp to contain China, which even US are always denying?

    Third, India is not in worse situation than 1962. In fact, India has upper hand to some extent today. Unlike 1962, today’s India is biggest democracy in the world and all world powers are eager to court India. While China is portrait as a threat by western media, India is often quoted as a rising peaceful power. India has relatively weaker neighbors while China has to keep updating her military because most of her neighbors are either weaponization to teeth or unfriendly. We have Bear, Sumo, Uncle Sam and his little brothers by our doorsteps, weaving knife and Ax. It would be foolish for dragon to provoke elephant.

    1962 is a tragic year for Indo-China relationship. Since then we no longer have brotherhood and live in mistrust with each other. But today’s India and China will surely not repeat that mistake again. GOI is pretty smart now and know how many cards he has on hand. China just learned a big lession of getting overconfidence and retreat to her wariness. The bottom line is: India and China are not enjoy playing the losers game anymore.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2010
  10. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

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    You fancy calling it fear mongering but I choose to call it reality check and not attempting to brush a threat under the carpet for the sake of national jingoism. You're not the only one who has contacts in the military dude and while if you have asked any military officers an official answers, they are bound to tell you what the government has kept as policy to tell entire nation--- Aal izz well. When both you and I know that NOTHING is well in this scenario.

    We might not lose a war but what victory we can achieve risking about a 100 men, we might have to lose 5 times more to attain the same.

    I don't want to match with them in every level okay? Let's see; infrastructure is weak here in NE, what we manage to make in 5 years (5 roads) they make 27 roads in the same time. We make 1 tunnel, they make 6 or 7. We open one route, they open multiple railway links for not just soldiers but also rail mobile missiles. I don't want to match their quantity. But now they have quality as well. Show me the picture of an average IA soldier compared to the pictures that I showed you above and compare their gear. You will know what I am talking about.

    So according to you we focused on quality right? Does a common IA soldier have all that the PLA soldiers above are shown to have? Does a common brigade of IA have that many missiles, artillery ammo etc that a common PLA unit have? There is not a single skirmish or is it that GOI is trying to HIDE it from the country? You think that our government is so honest? What classified issues were there 40 years ago, now they are coming to light. Do you not rule out the possibilities of such happenings again?

    Now China has quantity AND quality and we have neither. This is the reality. Barring the courage and initiative of our soldiers, nothing has changed.

    In a border conflict with us, Taiwan, Vietnam, Japan and USA will be set aside. Russia and China have signed a border treaty. North Korea is their pet if you don't know. Other nations you said aren't even a drop in the pond compared to PLA to take an attack initiative without US nod. You really take Chinese propaganda too seriously that we are not their priority. We ARE the priority. We are the only Asian country that can cause some serious threat to China other than Japanese. So we ARE the priority always. Don't buy their words for it. US is nowhere going to attack China anytime soon. The next immediate threat are we and Japan. And they know that we and Japanese don't have a military alliance and won't bleed for each other ever. So the entire PLA, PLAAF and PLAN will be focused on us.

    You be realistic man. Take a look at the entire neighbourhood of China. Who do you think is a credible competitor to them other than the passive Japanese? Who has multiple border dispute with China alone? Who has China fought close to marginally winning? Won't take an Einstein to guess. The fact that you mentioned is what PLA WANTS us to think; so that we remain carefree. Heard about the concept of deception?

    Why do you think supply lines are being built in Tibet so fast? Till now nothing of that sort was done.




    On the contrary it is VERY relevant. A war no matter how long needs supplies in constant flow and that too without any constraints of foreign-ordered supplies' bureaucracy and scandals. Whatever you say about quantity (now PLA is having quality as well), Chinese factories can manufacture it en masse and as much as they want while we might be delayed with waiting and stuff like what happened in Kargil. Remember the artillery shells order? Our soldiers nearly got screwed because of that delay. Goodness knows how much more blunder is hidden from our eyes.

    In the end, the constant supplies of material, ordinance and packages to support soldiers' courage is what wins modern wars.

    I am confident of our soldiers' capabilities but not so confident at the way in which government is taking supplies. You know that this area except 2-3 states out of 7 is ridden with insurgents as well and as latest reports have it, they've been collaborating with CCP including NSCM and ULFA leaders who've all got weapons of Chinese origin. Do you know how much of a nuisance they can be to our troops in a full blown war? Think again by keeping latest reports in mind my friend. We will be fighting a 2-front war without even Pakistan having to step in.

    Speaking of Pakistan, while Chinese will not bleed for Pakistan in case of an Indo-Pak war since they are pragmatic and use brains instead of heart in politics, Pakistan will definitely stir up problems in Kashmir. It is almost a certainty since more than a single military chief has said this over the last 3 years. Gen. Kapoor, Gen Singh, Marshal Naik, Admiral Mehta and now Admiral Verma; all of them state the same thing and very tactfully if you listen to how they choose words to answer questions.


    Listen. I am being realistic because me and my people will be the first on the line to face PLA's fury in the region like we did 48 years back, unlike Mumbai, Chennai, Bangalore and Pune and other cities that are more than 1,000 miles away okay? I am the last person who would be fear mongering here and you could ask the same stuff to Oracle who's from Nagaland and a NE himself. Talk to him about what situation is here. Even though his state is not in the proximity we Sikkimese are in, he will say something similar. We almost had it last time and only because Chogyal agreed to Nehru's protection (which was itself a disaster had the Indian Army soldiers not been brave and initiative taking; credit goes only to soldiers).

    So naturally, I will be as realistic and careful in my analysis of Chinese capabilities. It is not wrong to overestimate them and prepare against; but it would be a disaster of elephantine proportions to underestimate them and not be prepared against.
     
  11. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    While one could get alarmed by China's arsenal and its continual growth with state of art weaponry. I daresay we are not equipped to take on the challenge.

    What, however, has to be taken into consideration is China's strategic interest and the threat that they perceive. I am not privy to the same, so what I state are mere conjectures.

    China has many more frontiers to guard than India. Their frontiers are currently calm, but one cannot foresee the state of affairs in the future and so has to be prepared to face the challenge. China also has the reported aim of wanting to be a challenge to the USA. Therefore, it is not surprising to observe their continual quest at improving their arsenal.

    Compared to China, we have two frontiers to guard and the coastline. The main and major threat currently is from land. India, as I can fathom, is adequately equipped to contest this and more. Yet, at the same time, it must ensure that its arsenal is real time to face the future threat.

    This is an ongoing exercise.

    While we should be ready, I wonder if there is any serious indicators that should have us alarmed that we are not ready to face the challenges.

    Indeed, there are voids, but then one can only hope that they are filled by our Govt, not too far in the future.

    People who reside on our frontiers are the brave ones who face the brunt of any invasion and war. They have good reasons to be worried about their future and the safety of their home and hearth.

    The plight of the Assamese in 1962 can only be an example and Nehru's "My heart bleed for Assam" or words to that effect was hardly any salve to their plight!

    The cardinal principle is that never underestimate your possible adversary.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2010
  12. civfanatic

    civfanatic Retired Moderator

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    I think neither of us are willing to change our opinions, and I think both of us also lack the in-depth professional knowledge needed to make more relevant arguments, so let us end this debate here.

    I just want to say, that I have always advocated a Chanakyan approach to all of India's foreign affairs problems, and I have never encouraged a lax apporach to India's defence, nor have I ever encouraged underestimating India's potential enemies. However, I also strongly dissaprove of paranoia and living in constant fear of being unable to defend ourselves.

    There is an anecdote from our country's own history that illustrates what I am talking about. During the 1971 war, Indira Gandhi was recieving one of her regular briefings, when one of her advisors suddenly burst in and exclaimed "Madam, the U.S. Seventh Fleet has been spotted near Calcutta." Indira did not flinch, and continued to listen to her briefing. The advisor repeated the line, to which Indira responded, "I heard you the first time. Thank you".

    We should stop living in this state of fear, which is the only reason why our neighbors continue to press claims against us. We must show some resolve of our own.
     
  13. Bangalorean

    Bangalorean Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Tshering is right. I agree with him. In my opinion, the first area of focus must be infrastructure development - at a blistering pace. Logistics is what wins/loses wars these days, as tshering rightly said. If our logistics are not in place, we will have a tough time. The first and foremost requirement is to build up roads, multiple bridges, tunnels, storage godowns, etc. in the entire NE. This will not only serve the purpose of helping in case of war, but will provide much needed employment and provide a boost to the economy of the region.
     
  14. pankaj nema

    pankaj nema Senior Member Senior Member

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    It just does nt matter HOW are the relations between India and China
    Because China has made up its mind that it wants to keep India under pressure

    What MATTERS is that the Indian Armed forces are in Much much better shape than in 1962.

    And the Indian economy and Indian industry too are in Much better shape than in 1962

    We must forget about friendship with China We must just build our economic and military strength for any future conflict
     
  15. neo29

    neo29 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Its totally wrong fact that relations are worst than 1962. We have important trade relations with China which either party dont want to loose. Though we stuck with border dispute, China used to openly threaten military action since it knew that our army was not strong enough. Its not the case today as China knows India army is strong enough. Though PLA are formidable force the Indian Army too is strong enough. PLA has seen Indian military achivements in 1971 and Kargil and is surely wary of us.

    China will try to muscle flex and use pressure coz it knows Indian politicians are bothered more about economic growth and will bend down. But militarily it will make sure it does not confront India. Nevertheless China cant be trusted.
     
  16. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

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    Dude, it is not about your or my opinion; it is about what the GROUND reality is in this part of India. And that is what I am telling. Professional knowledge to 100% accuracy is impossible even if you and I have relatives in the military because it is classified from civilians. But if a little keenness on analyzing is shown, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how and why Beijing is so firm on its political stand while GOI stutters everytime and hesitates for every single step against Chinese.

    Mongolia air base, China observer's recommendation to ban BSF from patrolling in "sensitive areas" just because "China will be upset", silencing of Tibetan protestors in a democracy that too when they protests are peaceful, blundering foreign policy in the neighbourhood with Nepal and somewhat Bhutan and Burma vis a vis China.... isn't all this evident enough for you about our actual position against PLA, in comparison to what the GOI spreads propaganda about?

    "The antidote of poison is poison, not nectar,

    The vicious are deaf to entreaties gentle,

    Meet the enemy on his own terms

    And batter his pretentions to dust
    ."

    This was the quote of Chanakya regarding strategy and warfare that holds most water in the current scenario. What part of Chanakyan philosophy do you see GOI following at the present moment? Not this quote but if you say the present GOI is following anything that Chanakya prescribed, you'd be simply insulting the strategic wizard of our history. :emot15:

    And because we have not built any proper foundation on our foreign policy in our neighbourhood NOR have we taken any concrete steps to strengthen domestic military/infrastructural/industrial capabilities, we CANNOT use this quote's approach. This is the reality. Thanks to our government, not just this quote but entire Arthashastra cannot be applied in our neighbourhood due to the disastrous policies of our Nehruvian government's psychological foundations and current governments not ready to adopt a Chanakyan policy while Chinese have fully applied Sun Tzu's for their own advantage smartly.

    If we were indeed following Chanakya's strategy, entire South Asia would be on feet and neighbours cringing and crooning for us to favour them like puppies leaping up and down for a treat. The only country that follows anything close to Chanakyaniti in this region is Israel.. and it not just survives in such a hostile environment but thrives and dominates its region.

    Dude! I am not scared and neither is any Indian. Nor do I have any intention of scaring any Indian. But giving air to ground realities is not called scare mongering. I am telling you, this is the reality and it is visible in our borders. PLA takes regular patrols into our borders; how many times does Indian Army or BSF patrols do that? Heard about it anytime? Take a guess why.

    I am only telling our ground reality and it is not because of our inability but because of our political ill-will. India produces some of the most intelligent, hard-working and dedicated work force on this planet that when dispersed around the world as expatriates, create marvels for those countries and make them stronger; we still are making such all-round perfectionists in our country. BUT they are not given a chance to make the country strong because of....? Yes you guessed it right.. political slavery of foreign powers and spinelessness.
     
  17. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    India might be a considerable trade partner of CHina,but not a decisive trade partner of CHina.

    India as well as Russia, Brazil and Austrailia are just tier 3 trade partner(with their trade volume of 50-100 billion USD)
     
  18. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

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    You are one of the most sensible Chinese persons I have interacted with on international forums and I really appreciate your desire to make our friendship become solid and strong like how we were before 1950s. I also would like that. If only the 3 points that threaten our territorial integrity were respected by your government, we would welcome Chinese friendship with open arms. But unfortunately, your government risks a 2,000 year old friendship for a failed state that is nothing but a residue of foreign medieval Islamic rule.

    Full scale wars are costly and I agree with you on this. However, the possibility of multiple low-cost small skirmishes that convey a strategic threat cannot be ruled out. Full scale wars got extinct when USA and Pakistan created Jihad in 80s to fight Russians in Afghanistan. In fact even we and Pakistanis have not fought a full blown war after that. Economy is top priority but your government's obsession to get a land transport corridor to Arabian Sea and Middle East though ambitious, is hampered by our territories which coincidentally happen to be the ones that CCP calls "disputed" (Arunachal Pradesh, Sikkim, Jammu & Kashmir).

    S
    We have no qualms on trade ties dude. In fact, the more we trade, the more we become dependent on each other and the lesser there is a chance of conflict between us. If only Chinese government can take that extra step to our territorial concerns, it will see that China has A LOT to gain with a 100% friendship (political as well as economic) with India than it has with Pakistan. We genuinely accepted Tibet and Sinkiang as parts of China then so should you accept J&K, Arunachal and Sikkim as Indian; that would bury our enmity forever and lead to even military cooperation in the future. Yet CCP is losing all this just for the sake of a failed state.

    Is that too much to ask?

    All this support is only lip service that both you and I know. No country on this planet is willing to bleed for us and can only maximum extent arms cooperation, that's all. Any war whether east or west, we have to fight on our own. So this cooperation will win us nothing more than a few pats on our back.

    Peaceful neighbours? Ours?:emot15: We have a lunatic, fundamentalist, terrorist state in our west that is armed with nuclear weapons, is a failed economy, has more than 36 terrorist organizations wanted in 2 dozen countries as safe haven and that doesn't hesitate to use religion as an excuse to launch terror strikes in our country. Another junior sidekick of this country is in the opposition party of our eastern neighbour, that keeps seeping in radical, fundamentalist illegal immigrants into our country, then a confused Himalayan state that doesn't know whom to choose (us or you) and perhaps the only 100% peaceful neighbour Bhutan who is a quiet and simple nation.

    You call that a favourable neighbourhood? :emot4:
     
  19. kickok1975

    kickok1975 Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    50~100 billion is big enough. How many such trade partners we have besides US, Japan, Germany and South Korea?
     
  20. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    One should not judge China from the western perspective of what is victory and what is defeat.

    Or see China's actions as aggressive or otherwise through western perspective.

    One has to see it from the Chinese perspective to be equipped to deal with the Chinese.

    Sun Tsu is a great help.

    Some sayings of Sun Tsu would be enlightening:

    • Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.

    • If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him.

    • To a surrounded enemy, you must leave a way of escape.

    • Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance.

    • For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.

    • The best victory is when the opponent surrenders of its own accord before there are any actual hostilities... It is best to win without fighting

    • All men can see these tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved.

    • And therefore those skilled in war bring the enemy to the field of battle and are not brought there by him.

    • Subtle and insubstantial, the expert leaves no trace; divinely mysterious, he is inaudible. Thus he is master of his enemy's fate
     
  21. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    as posted before,

    tier 1: USA,EU ,Hongkong and Japan. yearly trade between either of them and China is over 300 billion USD;
    tier2: ASEAN,Taiwan and Korea. yearly trade between either of them and China is over 100-300 billion USD;

    tier3: Australia,Russia ,India and Brazil. yearly trade between either of them and China is over 500-100 billion USD;
     

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