India can help Taiwan - while Taiwan Is Running Out Of Time

Discussion in 'Indo Pacific & East Asia' started by amoy, Mar 14, 2011.

  1. amoy

    amoy Senior Member Senior Member

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    Taiwan Is Running Out Of TimeMarch 12, 2011: Taiwan is running out of time to find replacements for its aging submarine force. Taiwan currently has four boats. Two are 70 year old American Guppy class subs. These are used only for training, and are increasingly difficult and expensive to maintain. The two Hailung class subs were built in Holland and entered service in 1986. These 2,500 ton boats are armed with twenty torpedoes and Harpoon missiles (launched from the torpedo tubes.) But there's a new problem as well, because of plummeting morale among the 200 sailors who run these boats. Years of delays in obtaining new subs, and dim prospects of ever getting them, discourages qualified young sailors from volunteering for the submarine service, and many old hands are retiring as soon as they are eligible.
    Nevertheless, the search for a shipyard willing to build, for Taiwan, eight diesel-electric submarines, continues. None of the European shipyards that specialize in this sort of thing will do it, as they fear economic retaliation from China. The United States had not built a diesel electric sub since the 1950s. Getting an American shipyard up to speed on building diesel electric subs would be expensive, and no one is sure exactly how expensive. Moreover, the uncertainty of how much it might cost is scaring many Taiwan supporters in the U.S. government. So alternative solutions are still being sought. Publicly, Taiwan says it wants the subs for anti-submarine work. But it's been pointed out that there are cheaper and more effective anti-sub capabilities available via helicopters, aircraft and UAVs. What is left unsaid is that the subs could also be used to shut down China's ports, crippling the economy and causing lots of political problems for China's leaders. It's also possible to shut the ports without using subs (air dropped naval mines, or just threatening to attack any merchant ship entering Chinese waters), but nothing does this sort of thing as effectively as a submarine, especially a very quiet diesel-electric sub.

    Ideally, Taiwan wants eight new diesel-electric boats, preferably with AIP (air independent propulsion). This would drive the price up to nearly a billion dollars a boat. There are two potential sources.

    One prospect is India, which has become quite alarmed at China's growing naval strength. India is building its own subs. Currently, six French Scorpene class diesel-electric submarines are being built in India. The Scorpene is a very modern design (and the result of cooperation between a French and a Spanish firm) that displace 1,700 tons, and with a crew of 32. It has six 533mm (21 inch) torpedo tubes, and carries 18 torpedoes and/or missiles. It is equipped with an AIP.

    With well trained crews, Scorpenes can get close to just about any surface ship, no matter how good the defender's anti-submarine defenses are. But it's the AIP boats that makes these boats real killers. Without AIP, subs spend most of their time just below surface, using their diesel engines (via a snorkel device that breaks the surface to take in air, and get rid of the engine exhaust.) Snorkels can be spotted by modern maritime patrol aircraft, and both nations are getting more of these.

    India is getting its first Scorpene in 2015, with one a year after that. Only the last three will have AIP. The price of the contract is quoted as $300 million for each boat. That could include AIP, because the boats are being built in Indian yards, which have much lower costs. European built AIP boats go for about half a billion dollars each. Typically, AIP adds about $100 million to the cost of a sub.

    Since the Scorpenes are being built with Spanish and French technology, China could still pressure those nations to forbid India to build any of these boats for Taiwan. But India is also building nuclear subs, using Indian technology. At the moment, India is building all these nukes for their own use. But a Taiwanese order for over $10 billion worth of nuclear boats could change that. There are no active discussions with India on this matter. But the Taiwanese have approached Russia on the matter of collaborating in submarine construction. These discussions are still underway, and might come to fruition before Indian options become real.
     
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  3. chex3009

    chex3009 Regular Member

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    ^^^ Russians won't let this kind of mouth-watering deal slipped to us. While we fear of the Chinese retaliation while taking up any such order, the Russians can handle the Chinese very well.
     
  4. amitkriit

    amitkriit Senior Member Senior Member

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    Forget it, India can do nothing as long as she herself is dependent over Russia and France for valuable inputs, consultancy and technology. INS Arihant is being built with Russian assistance.
     
  5. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

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    Even if we have technical know how to build a sub in our own country and can manufacture them easily now but we donot have balls to even think about selling them to Taiwan. China can do anything and get away with it on pretext of maintaining balance in Asia . Before we buy submarines and other weapons we need to buy some balls to use them as well.
     
  6. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    india should finish subs for its own Navy,befeore thinking how to build subs for others.
     
  7. JBH22

    JBH22 Senior Member Senior Member

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    x2 quoted for truth :)
     
  8. Patriot

    Patriot Senior Member Senior Member

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    We have already built Arihant & the same is under sea trial. Two more of this class to follow for the seal trial in a few years. We have bought ( not stolen) technology for AIP & are on the verge of developing our own.

    If your cousin is thinking of taking some help from us , it will be our pleasure to do so. Btw your cousin is very wise & ethical compare to it's big brother as they are looking for open transparent technological assistance from like minded countries rather than stealing or reverse engineering it.
     
  9. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    it is wiser to market your subs after your "nuke sub" has nuke reaction in and enters into service,

    BTW, the sub fleet of Indian navy is shrinking day by day.......
     
  10. Minghegy

    Minghegy Regular Member

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    Do you dare? The French they did it in early 1990s, then fierce revenges came, far more than they expected.
     
  11. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

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    Should we also start retaliating for providing arms to Pakistan? When CHina dare to sell enemy to our sworn enemy why should we hold back. We can also retaliate and whole world will be with us .
     
  12. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    "dare not dare not" is decided not by the willness,but by the power balance.

    China dared ass-kick France, but dare not do so with USA,just because france-CHina power balance benefitedHina while sino-USA power balance doesn't benefit China.
     
  13. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    India has to first fulfil her defence requirements before exporting.

    If the deal is big enough France would not bother about anything else.

    Russia can give them submarines too for cash as also for port facilities since Russian Pacific Fleet requires intermediate ports for their Vladivostok - Lenningrad (now St Petersburg) run.
     
  14. Minghegy

    Minghegy Regular Member

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    That's different, Taiwan is a province of China, your government admits as well.
     
  15. Minghegy

    Minghegy Regular Member

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    I miss ARPmend2p (probably misspelled)
     
  16. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

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    Its all about capability of creating a big issue ie making mountain out of mole. China is like a kid that keeps on crying for almost everything that it gets a chance to cry for while we are not like them. but the day we feel like enough is enough and we will not take anymore bullshit for our stupid neighbor that day you guys will also see our retaliations and then you will start caring for our sentiments as well.
     
  17. Minghegy

    Minghegy Regular Member

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    India sells weapon to Taiwan = China sells weapon to Maoist, this just is an equal revenge, I'm sure the real revenges will far more than it.
     
  18. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

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    You can do all Blah blah of yours. As if China donot provide arms to Maoists? This Maoists strategy of yours is going to end very soon.
     
  19. Patriot

    Patriot Senior Member Senior Member

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    We will make you happy with the news when Indian Battle group command the IOR to take better care of your cousins & burden off of the shoulders of the big brother. For your info we first do the trials than put systems into service & here we differ from the respected mimicking thief big brother. We empathize your concern for the shrinking fleet but the same is being taken care and the much more potent one will replace them. Mean time , we shall love to help your cousins if they desire so with authentic tested technology in an ethical manner in the respect of big brother.
     
  20. Tolaha

    Tolaha Senior Member Senior Member

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    If some reports are to be believed, then the Maoists are already using Chinese-made weapons. Now if thats true, then it should be fine for India to arm Taiwan... right?
     
  21. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

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    When you talk about this, its sort of funny you know. I mean think about it; right now even our domestic orders are not being fulfilled. How the heck do you think we are going to be taking foreign orders in first place when we ourselves have such a HUMUNGOUS demand for the same weapon systems that is keep thousands of domestic as well as foreign vendors busy 24/7?

    Both you and I know that nuclear subs cannot be sold. It is a strategic weapon and barring PRC, no one has ever sold any strategic weapons to any other country (I am referring to your sale of M-11 ballistic missiles to Pakistan which also falls in the category of strategic assets). And certainly with a joke of PM and a swindler for a ruling party, the chances of manufacturing Arihants at that speed for our own Navy (let alone foreign Navies) is as much as that of me becoming the absolute unquestionable ruler of India this instant.

    Technically, Taiwan is a friendly entity but politically it has worse claims than you over territories that are rightfully ours including 4 of our states (which includes mine for some bloody reason). So I would prefer if those lot stay on that tiny island and just keep conducting decent and normal trade with us rather than go all strategic and stab on our back.
     

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