India added 20% of Pakistan GDP in 2 days to her economy.

pmaitra

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Good opening post, but things went downhill afterwards.
If you point out my intensionaly than I am ready to discuss it except in few cases when I willfully trolled some Porkis, Chinks and sickular to make them fill uneasy in discussion. I have done that a lot of PDF also.
There are certain terms that are illegal to use according to India law.

Please refrain.

This is a cautionary note to you, and to others who might be encouraging you.
 

HariPrasad-1

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And the news is that Indian Rupee has appreciated 8 Paise against USD Today after going down 6 paise (What I show) It is at new high of Rs 65.28 against USD which is highest in almost an years to year and half.
 

HariPrasad-1

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Good opening post, but things went downhill afterwards.

There are certain terms that are illegal to use according to India law.

Please refrain.

This is a cautionary note to you, and to others who might be encouraging you.
All right. Noted. Thank you sir for drawing my attention.
 

no smoking

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This is BS. from where does the qualty come in economics? I am hearing this for the first time.

That is because you never looked into PPP calculation. Basically, PPP is calculated by PPP exchange rate while nominal GDP is multiplied by market exchange rate. The PPP exchange is based on one assumption: for the universal products and services, the price in developing countries should be the same in developed countries. For example: if you spend 900 RMB in China to buy a Nike sport shoes which will cost $200 in USA, then 900RMB should be equal to 200 US dollars since they can buy the same product, so the PPP exchange rate should be 4.5 RMB/USD while the market exchange rate is about 6.8 RMB/USD in the nominal GDP calculation (in the real, the PPP rate is calculated on a basket of goods & services). So, obviously, PPP will dramatically inflate the output of China. This example, however, ignores some costs:

The USA customers are not only buying sport shoes, but also paying for the transportation service of the shoes from overseas and also the tariff of the government, and a longer warranty term. Now, we can find the $200 dollars in USA actually can buy lot more than 900 RMB in China, so PPP exchange rate is kind of overvalue the local currency.


Another famous example is the hair cut service. Those PPP supporters arguing: if people in developing countries can get their hair cut at a lot cheaper rate than Americans, then the value of hair cut in USA is overstated. But once again, PPP overlooks the detailed context of this simple service. We all know, in developed countries, government generally has very strict regulations and laws regarding these kind of services, which are missing in most developing countries. For example, the barber shops in developed countries are required to buy insurance for the possible injury on their customers, meanwhile they have to pay lot money to qualify hygienic standard, safety standard, environmental regulation, on and on. So, the customers in developed countries not only receive a hair cutting service, but also various protections which are very rare in developing countries.


The examples in the above just show us how PPP overlooks the quality of goods and services.



As i said, our economy is highly undervalued and there is no question of thinking of pros or cons at this stage.

Well, there is no evidence to support what you said. If Indian economy is highly undervalued, then we should see a booming exportation. In the past 5 years, India rupee has been depreciating from 51.03317 to 65.31462.


http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=INR&view=5Y


During the same period, opposing to most people in this forum believe, the exportation hasn’t shown any sign of booming. Actually, the exportation declined since 2015 roughly from average 260,000m to 220,000m per month.


http://www.tradingeconomics.com/india/exports


If you are talking about underground market, well, it is almost the same for every developing countries like China, Thailand, Pakistan, etc. It is meaningless to government and financial institutions.


How do you know that it is not a result of any policy?

You tell me what policy declared by Modi in past few days pushing up the exchange rate so dramatically.


I say you once again that If USD is going down against all currencies than what you say is true. INR is up against BGP as well. So your argument fells flat and not true.

First, you mean GBP, right?

Second, if it is GBP, then have a look of GBP to Rupee for the last 5 years, GBP has been going down from 2013!


http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=INR&view=5Y
 
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HariPrasad-1

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That is because you never looked into PPP calculation. Basically, PPP is calculated by PPP exchange rate while nominal GDP is multiplied by market exchange rate. The PPP exchange is based on one assumption: for the universal products and services, the price in developing countries should be the same in developed countries. For example: if you spend 900 RMB in China to buy a Nike sport shoes which will cost $200 in USA, then 900RMB should be equal to 200 US dollars since they can buy the same product, so the PPP exchange rate should be 4.5 RMB/USD while the market exchange rate is about 6.8 RMB/USD in the nominal GDP calculation (in the real, the PPP rate is calculated on a basket of goods & services). So, obviously, PPP will dramatically inflate the output of China. This example, however, ignores some costs:

The USA customers are not only buying sport shoes, but also paying for the transportation service of the shoes from overseas and also the tariff of the government, and a longer warranty term. Now, we can find the $200 dollars in USA actually can buy lot more than 900 RMB in China, so PPP exchange rate is kind of overvalue the local currency.


Another famous example is the hair cut service. Those PPP supporters arguing: if people in developing countries can get their hair cut at a lot cheaper rate than Americans, then the value of hair cut in USA is overstated. But once again, PPP overlooks the detailed context of this simple service. We all know, in developed countries, government generally has very strict regulations and laws regarding these kind of services, which are missing in most developing countries. For example, the barber shops in developed countries are required to buy insurance for the possible injury on their customers, meanwhile they have to pay lot money to qualify hygienic standard, safety standard, environmental regulation, on and on. So, the customers in developed countries not only receive a hair cutting service, but also various protections which are very rare in developing countries.


The examples in the above just show us how PPP overlooks the quality of goods and services.
Do not teach me this bookish knowledge which every one on forum know. Do not invent your term to justify anything such as quality of currency or something similar. You are discussing economics her and uses economic terminology.
Well, there is no evidence to support what you said. If Indian economy is highly undervalued, then we should see a booming exportation. In the past 5 years, India rupee has been depreciating from 51.03317 to 65.31462.
What does nominal GDP 2.4 TR USD against 9.5 TR USD PPP GDP mean? can you please explain the difference (Logically and not reeducation camp economics way)
You tell me what policy declared by Modi in past few days pushing up the exchange rate so dramatically.
What policy mean what? It may be anything how you and me know? They do not fix the policy in consultation with me.
First, you mean GBP, right?

Second, if it is GBP, then have a look of GBP to Rupee for the last 5 years, GBP has been going down from 2013!
Yes GBP, I am talking about last 2 months. on Jnuary 31 2017 it was Rs 84.75 and now it is 90.87. So what you had argued that it is USD which is going down and it is not INR which is getting strong is abslote lie and false. It is INR which is appreciating. Now do not come up with your BS argument once agin if you do not have anything substential to prove. Do not give false references such as GBP is going down for last 5 years etc.
 

singhboy98

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We did not need Russian help to extend it. This is just a formal announcement of increase in range. It had 600 KM range right from the beginning. You must know that any missiles range can not be doubled in few days after announcement of intention of increase in range. Brahmos has 600 KM range was told by none other than DRDO ex chief Vijay kumar saraswat. It is a different matter that It was not pointed out by any media. Saraswat also told that Agni 5's range is much higher. If you want it to strike 6000 kM, it will strike 6000 KM, If you want 7000 KM , It will go 7000 KM and whatever range want. He said that. It was also gone unnoticed by media. So do not come here and teach me that with the Russian help, the rane was increased by 50% in couple of month and 100%+ range increase is planned in 6 month. Nobody can do that. If it is possible why do not you guys do that?
Spot on man. Brahmos is our baby and we know more about it than the Russians. I do not know the nationality of the aforesaid member but he ought to know that integrating a 3 ton missile to a fighter aircraft is no joke. But we did it. The last I heard, SDB was still begging HAL to send over a team and some data so that they could figure out how we did what we did.
 

no smoking

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Do not teach me this bookish knowledge which every one on forum know. Do not invent your term to justify anything such as quality of currency or something similar. You are discussing economics her and uses economic terminology.

Well, if you have anything to contribute, you should bring it up such as pointing where I am wrong. “Do not teach me this bookish knowledge which everyone on forum know” certainly is an argument.



What does nominal GDP 2.4 TR USD against 9.5 TR USD PPP GDP mean? can you please explain the difference (Logically and not reeducation camp economics way)

I already explain to you what makes the difference in the above, you said you know the knowledge. If you think my explanation is not logical, then you can point out. Otherwise, you can come up with a logical explanation for everyone.

Ok, let me try again. The PPP is calculated based on a theoretical PPP exchange rate instead of market exchange rate which is used in nominal GDP. The way of getting this PPP exchange rate is picking up a basket of goods and services which can be found in both countries. Then calculate the exchange rate based on the local currency prices by assuming these goods and services are the same in both sides. So, let's say, if in India, it costs you 10 rupee for a simple hair cut while you may be charge 10 dollars in USA get the job done. If we assume these are the same service, then PPP theory believes that the "real exchange rate" should be 1 rupee/ per dollar (10/10). Apply this rate to the whole country production, if India's total GDP in rupee is 32 trillion rupee, then the GDP converted to US dollar could be 32 trillion dollars. However, if you still use the market exchange rate, the GDP in US$ can only be 500 billions with the rate of 65.

What policy mean what? It may be anything how you and me know? They do not fix the policy in consultation with me.

You are the one insisting that the appreciation is the result of the Modi government’s policy. Now you tell me that you don’t what policy leads to this? Then, I have to ask if this is your opinion produced by your own analysis or you just simply read from a pro-Modi newspaper.



Yes GBP, I am talking about last 2 months. on Jnuary 31 2017 it was Rs 84.75 and now it is 90.87. So what you had argued that it is USD which is going down and it is not INR which is getting strong is abslote lie and false. It is INR which is appreciating. Now do not come up with your BS argument once agin if you do not have anything substential to prove. Do not give false references such as GBP is going down for last 5 years etc.

First, you should check your data, the GBP was on 81.70073 yesterday not 90.87;

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=INR&view=1Y


Second, if you go back to my previous post, you find I already told you:” Trump moved in the white house and American started to depreciate dollar, and followed by every major countries. “;


Third, the reason that I give you 5 years trend of GBP vs Rupee is we can find a general trend of depreciation of GBP in the past 4 years which means the depreciation in the past several week is more likely a continuance of last 4 years general trend instead of some particular policies of Modi government since middle of 2014. In other words, it reflects a relatively weaker British economy comparing to India. But certainly not some achievement of Modi government in the last several weeks.
 
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HariPrasad-1

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You are the one insisting that the appreciation is the result of the Modi government’s policy
Where did I say that? It is you who bring Modi government in. Have I write in my article anywhere that it is a not a result of Modi policy and asked how do you know.

You are such a naive and ignorant that I would not like to discuss with you any more. You are repeating your crap again and again which has no relations with discussion. I think you just writes what you know though it is not relevant to subject.
 

no smoking

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Where did I say that? It is you who bring Modi government in. Have I write in my article anywhere that it is a not a result of Modi policy and asked how do you know.
Didn't you said this in your first post in this thread:

"Conclusion:

Appreciation is INR VS USD and other currency is a great development in India economy. After the appreciation of Rupee against USD in Vajpayee era, the economy was completely let down by foolish policies of congress and Chidambaram in particular. As Modi rightly said that it is Harvard VS Hard work. BJP government has set policies right. Rupees is by and large stable in 2 and half year of BJP government. Now Rupee has started appreciating. This will be a great achievement and a great boost to Indian economy and Rupee will head toward its correct value which should be around RS 20 a USD.


-HariPrasad."


So, my question is what policy and how can you call it stable when rupee has been depreciating in last 2 and half years? Check this chart in the below and see how stable rupee was since May 2014.

upload_2017-3-22_17-27-30.png
 

Adioz

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Wow, this escalated a lot while I was gone.
What does nominal GDP 2.4 TR USD against 9.5 TR USD PPP GDP mean? can you please explain the difference (Logically and not reeducation camp economics way)
This means that IF PPP holds, our GDP stands at $9.5 trillion. But PPP DOES NOT hold in international trade, which is governed by nominal exchange rates (Real Effective Exchange Rate to be exact).

What do I mean by "if PPP holds"?

Well, if maize in India costs Rs 50/kg, while in USA maize costs $ 5/kg, we say that 10 Rupee should be equal to 1 $. This would be the market rate if PPP holds. But it does not. And $1 is worth 65 USD.

Another example would be cost of a Japanese comic (called manga) in India is, say Rs 150 while in Japan it is 1500 Yen. PPP dictates the exchange rate should be at 10 Yen for 1 Rupee. But the RER is roughly 2 Yen for 1 Rupee. Why? Beacuase the manga came from Japan, and its transportation costs were added. Also, manga sales are not common in India, so economies of scale do not work.

Now real PPP calculations look at a basket of goods (and not a single product, as I used in the oversimplified examples above). Still, PPP can not account for some of the reasons for difference in price of goods. For example, medicine produced in Europe would cost you a fortune, while the same medicine produced in India is comparatively very cheap. Why? Royalties on IPRs. They pay, but we do not always pay. Does PPP account for these factors? No.

Similarly, PPP does not account for the barriers to arbitrage, such as trade barriers, liquidity constraints, transportation costs, etc.
PPP also does not account for some other things like base effect, FII and FPI and other things like technological innovations and frugal constraints that can force a change in the price levels of certain services (like space launch and heart surgeries in India vis-a-vis the West).
Note that nominal exchange rates do not shed light on the Purchasing Power of a currency, and so the closest thing we have, to measure that, is the PPP.

So we are using PPP in the absence of a better alternative.

Therefore GDP at PPP (which is GDP calculated at PPP exchange rates) is a heavily distorted figure.

What @no smoking smoking said about PPP being a measure of only quantity and with no emphasis on quality is only half correct, but that is an academic debate that extends the uncertainty into the very marrow of economic thinking.

All this is part of the larger, ongoing debate of economics which questions the very reasoning that we use to label a country as developed, developing or underdeveloped. Until this debate reaches its logical consensual conclusion, we have no choice but to continue on with the current system. As far as current system is concerned, we compare countries based on GDP measured at nominal rates, and we compare quality of life using GDP PPP per capita.


Nobody said so either.

But the gap between Nominal & PPP GDP is damn high. Means there's an inflationary potential left between which can patched up for a bigger economy in MER.

Rest, get the example of East Asia.
By the term “inflationary potential”, do you mean to say that ideally, the nominal exchange rate should be equal to the PPP level exchange rate which is INR 17 to 1$?

About the East Asian crisis of 1997, AFAIK, it was due to a meltdown of banks due to heavy (over?) spending which did not translate into heavy returns as a result of which banks were saddled with Non-performing Assets. The Japanese bought a trillion dollars in FOREX and were barely able to arrest a Yen slide. I can't relate it to our current situation :confused1:

Every development in economy will have multiple effect and implication. If it is 100 inr vs 1 usd, our export will further increase. Can we afford it?

It is always be at a correct level which is your economic power or strength. Our economy is big and our nominal value is 4 time lower than our purchase power is unacceptable and it has a negative overall impact on our economy and so any appreciation up to 50 INR VS 1 USD is well come. We can think subsequently whether it is good or not good. At this level, there is no question of rethinking on INR appreciation.
Any under or overvaluation of a currency is supposed to be self-correcting. How? Arbitrage. But there are a lot of enemies that arbitrage has, and so arbitrage never really works at 100% efficiency.

You seem to be celebrating the fact that the Rupee is appreciating. So let us assume that you are made the supreme authority in this country with the absolute control over both fiscal and monetary policies, as well as absolute control over all of the state governments.

You choose to raise RER to INR 50 to 1 $. How would you go about doing this? The only ways I can think of are:-
  • Increasing the demand of the INR in international markets. But how?
  • Decreasing the supply of cash in the economy. Prudent?
Also, what would be a higher priority for you - Inflation control or Rupee appreciation or GDP growth?

  1. Currency appreciation needs more exports.
  2. While a healthy economy for "safe currency appreciation" needs high manufacturing growth rate.
Now,
  1. India has a high trade deficit but it has world's largest Greenfield FDI which patches the deficit up and saves our currency from falling dangerously.
  2. It's manufacturing growth rate is now close to double digit & exports are rising faster than imports.
So, the currency who is already backed up by FDI is obvious to go up with depleting trade deficit.
FDI temporarily raises demand for Rupee in international market, and when we start exporting goods produced as a direct result of this FDI, we will again see an increase in the demand for Rupee as they will have to convert their currency to Rupee before buying Made in India goods. All this is likely to raise the REER of Rupee. But the parameter the government seems most interested to control is inflation. No Indian government can disregard inflation. However, FPI and FII also play an increasingly important role in driving the demand for Rupee in the international market. Infact, the recent hike in Rupee is due to increased FII in India (due to Modi's win in UP and the subsequent market expectation for more big-ticket reforms.)
BTW, another thrust area of the RBI has been to control Rupee fluctuation. That seems to be bearing fruit. (Although there are indeed a number of factors at work here in RBI's favour)
Rupee vplatility.png


What should be interesting over the long term is if the government will indeed allow Rupee to appreciate. If we succeed in making ourselves an export-led economy, I do not see any incentive for the government to cause an increase in the REER of Rupee. They'll most likely try to keep it low.

Most projections place the Rupee between 75 to 80 to a Dollar in 2020.

Oh, wait. One reason for the RBI to allow this appreciation to continue in the short run could be to allow us to shore up our FOREX reserves. 2017-18 is likely to be turbulent. I know that the RBI is preparing ahead of times by shoring up its Forex. So this is why the Rupee is being allowed to rise. :hmm:

Anyhow, I think this is a temporary phenomenon.
 

Indx TechStyle

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By the term “inflationary potential”, do you mean to say that ideally, the nominal exchange rate should be equal to the PPP level exchange rate which is INR 17 to 1$?
Yep, I do.

If not equal to exchange rate, this massive gap can be patched to up some extent, to about 2-2.5 times from current 3.8 times.

Because MER speaks in International Trade.
 

no smoking

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Wow, this escalated a lot while I was gone.

This means that IF PPP holds, our GDP stands at $9.5 trillion. But PPP DOES NOT

.....

Anyhow, I think this is a temporary phenomenon.
Great explanation, my friend. Better than mine.
 

HariPrasad-1

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Appreciation is INR VS USD and other currency is a great development in India economy. After the appreciation of Rupee against USD in Vajpayee era, the economy was completely let down by foolish policies of congress and Chidambaram in particular. As Modi rightly said that it is Harvard VS Hard work. BJP government has set policies right. Rupees is by and large stable in 2 and half year of BJP government. Now Rupee has started appreciating. This will be a great achievement and a great boost to Indian economy and Rupee will head toward its correct value which should be around RS 20 a USD.
I said that BJP sets policies right but they did it 2 and half year ago. Where have I written that because of certain change in policy recently , this appreciation has taken place. In response to your question, I simply said that We do not know whether it is because of any policy change or not. I am repeating this for third time.

regarding your second question, I have already answered that with graph of USD vs INR for a year 2014. Please check it.
 
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HariPrasad-1

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Well, if maize in India costs Rs 50/kg, while in USA maize costs $ 5/kg, we say that 10 Rupee should be equal to 1 $. This would be the market rate if PPP holds. But it does not. And $1 is worth 65 USD.

Another example would be cost of a Japanese comic (called manga) in India is, say Rs 150 while in Japan it is 1500 Yen. PPP dictates the exchange rate should be at 10 Yen for 1 Rupee. But the RER is roughly 2 Yen for 1 Rupee. Why? Beacuase the manga came from Japan, and its transportation costs were added. Also, manga sales are not common in India, so economies of scale do not work.
I have given same example of buying a shirt in US and same in India pl check. I know what you say.
we compare countries based on GDP measured at nominal rates, and we compare quality of life using GDP PPP per capita.
True.
Any under or overvaluation of a currency is supposed to be self-correcting. How? Arbitrage. But there are a lot of enemies that arbitrage has, and so arbitrage never really works at 100% efficiency.

You seem to be celebrating the fact that the Rupee is appreciating. So let us assume that you are made the supreme authority in this country with the absolute control over both fiscal and monetary policies, as well as absolute control over all of the state governments.

You choose to raise RER to INR 50 to 1 $. How would you go about doing this? The only ways I can think of are:-
  • Increasing the demand of the INR in international markets. But how?
  • Decreasing the supply of cash in the economy. Prudent?
Also, what would be a higher priority for you - Inflation control or Rupee appreciation or GDP growth?

See your entitled to your inferences. What I have said is rupee appreciating and what it mean and where would it have effect. What you right here is your conclusion from my article and only you know how you have drawn these conclusions.
FDI temporarily raises demand for Rupee in international market, and when we start exporting goods produced as a direct result of this FDI, we will again see an increase in the demand for Rupee as they will have to convert their currency to Rupee before buying Made in India goods. All this is likely to raise the REER of Rupee.
What we need is to curtail import rather than focusing on export. In chidambaram's time, he allowed all the countries to import their goods freely. Because of this, our 10 bn USD capital goods import rose to 70 bn USD every year, Out of these huge Import, 85% of the capital goods was such that which we produced in India that time. This was higher than oil import. This broke the waist of economy and build huge pressure on INR which down to Rs 68 from 43.50 in vajpayee time. Other problem was coal scam. Because of SC verdict, coal production stopped and we were forced to Import coal which allow exporter countries charge the price at their will. Other main area of free import of steel from china without proper protection. Since Jetly imposed minimum import price, steel industries has seen a resurgence and 2 lakh crore loan which had become NAV is now considered to be good. We must not import the things which we make here with best quality. In chidambaram's time power plants and turbines were allowed to import freely from china though BHEL makes much better. All bought it because of liberal payment conditions. If focus properly in make in india and give a littele protection to desi Industries, We can not only rock but we can generate huge employment as well. Once Desi consumption increase, cost of production will go down and our goods will become more competitive. Other thing is that we need to focus on export. Forget about other things, we have a potential to export huge quantity of food grain and make our farmers wealthy. In vajpayee time, huge quantity of food grains were exported. This goes long and long but make in India holds the key.
 

no smoking

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I said that BJP sets policies right but they did it 2 and half year ago. Where have I written that because of certain change in policy recently , this appreciation has taken place. In response to your question, I simply said that We do not know whether it is because of any policy change or not. I am repeating this for third time.
Ok, let's try it again, what the policy BJP government has set right 2 and half years ago?
 

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