IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions

[Thrishul]

The navy is said to be contemplating to order at least three more Scorpene submarines to meet the deficit in the force. MDL and DCNS have stated that possible construction of these additional submarines will incubate the construction line and facilities that were built under P-75 program. Further, the company has stated that the development period for these submarines will be less compared to the ones contracted under P-75 Program. The move is largely being viewed as a win-win situation for all stakeholders.

The P-75 program contract is for 6 submarines with a optional clause for 6 more submarines. The state of the submarine arm is so bad that the extra 3 submarines will not be enough. We need to go for 6 more submarines under the program.

 

[BON PLAN]

This is Epic!
I am carrying a cell phone without SIM card for a while, but I can at least access internet through wifi...

It's better than to have the same phone without internet rights !

 

[BON PLAN]

Extremely Difficult for Indian Navy’s Submarine Force to Counter Any Hostilities in Current State : Standing Committee on Defence.

In a recent report tabled before the parliament, the ‘standing committee on defence’ has raised serious concerns about the Indian Navy’s underwater force. The submarine force of the navy is at the epicentre of the navy’s operations in the contested Indian Ocean Region (IOR). Under the navy’s command are just 14 submarines which are tasked with the crucial task of guarding India’s coastal waters and also the far flung maritime interest of the country.

Besides, the submarine force is also in-charge of maintaining a privy eye over multiple chokepoints along Strait of Hormuz and Malacca Straits in the Indian Ocean. The submarines are critical for India to impose and to repel any naval blockades along these vantage maritime strategic chokepoints. The effective management of these naval blockades will prove decisive in war-time.

The high-powered standing committee in its report has strongly noted that “It is very unfortunate that Navy has landed into such a critical situation where MRLC (Medium Refit Life Certification) of six submarines is the only available option. Even MRLC will be completed only by 2019. In such a dismal scenario, it is very difficult for Navy to be adequately prepared for any eventuality.”

The navy’s under-water force is composed of 13 conventional and 1 nuclear powered submarines which are all on an average aged between 16-30 years. A classified report prepared by the navy had stated that at any given time, a very minimal amount of the force is available for operations as most of the submarines are either under minor or major refitting programs.

The navy, in an effort to address the short fallings, had in 1999 drafted the 30-year submarine construction plan, under which navy envisioned to constructs 12 conventional submarines by 2012 in Phase – I and another 12 by 2024 in Phase – II. But after almost two decades down the lane, the navy has failed to induct even a single submarine to its force.

The Maritime Capability Perspective Plan (MCPP) 2012-27, under which the navy’s modernisation programs are being floated, envisages a force level of at least 18 conventional submarines. The committee has raised concerns about the country’s efforts and capabilities to meet these ambitious targets.

The P-75 program under which six conventional ‘Scorpene’ submarines are being built by DCNS and MDL is at least four years behind schedule. INS Kalvari, the first submarine being constructed under the program, is expected to be commissioned only in mid-2017.

The Navy and MoD, in a written reply to the committee’s query in regard to answering the deficit in the force, have stated that there exists no solid procurement option. Further, they have observed that the lone viable option to pursue under current condition is to rely on Medium Refit Life Certification (MRLC) of submarines.

These demanding and costly MRLCs the navy says will increase the service life of every single submarine by at least 10 years. A single MRLC according to the navy will take at least 2-3 years and the program shall duly be certified by OEMs.
Way forward for re-energising submarine force of Indian Navy
The navy is currently modernising its submarine force under the ‘30 year submarine construction’ program and the Maritime Capability Perspective Plan 2012-2027. Accordingly, the navy will have to operate at least 30 submarines to counter balance the surging induction rate being followed by the hostile neighbours.

The navy is desperately waiting for the induction of the six ‘Scorpene’ diesel-electric submarines being built by state-run Defence PSU Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited (MDL) in collaboration with French based DCNS under the P-75 program. The submarines under the program are delayed over four years and this is largely attributed to the development of indigenous technology.

INS Kalvari, the first of the submarine being built under the program, is slated to be commissioned by mid-2017, as the submarine has successfully completed all sea trials. INS Khanderi, second of the six submarines, was launched by MDL in February, 2017 and is expected to be commissioned in December, 2017. The rest of the four submarines are expected to be rolled out with a time gap of nine months between each of them.

The navy is said to be contemplating to order at least three more Scorpene submarines to meet the deficit in the force. MDL and DCNS have stated that possible construction of these additional submarines will incubate the construction line and facilities that were built under P-75 program. Further, the company has stated that the development period for these submarines will be less compared to the ones contracted under P-75 Program. The move is largely being viewed as a win-win situation for all stakeholders.

Another program the navy is pinning its hope on is the P-75I program under which six more AIP equipped conventional submarines are to be constructed. The program has been delayed even before its inception as the MoD is yet to release a RFP and this is attributed to the delay in notification of the much awaited ‘Strategic Partnership’ model.

Several global submarine manufacturers have made elaborate offers to the MoD and it is believed that the manufacturers are offering unmatched ToT (Transfer of Technology). Following its tryst with the Indian market, DCNS is expected to make the most economically viable offer. Further, the company already has established prerequisite expertise and infrastructure at MDL. HDW is offering its Type-214 submarine and Sweden based Saab AB is making an aggressive, unmatched and ‘no-strings attached’ ToT offer for its A-26 NG submarine.

With the planned involvement of private shipyards, the tender is expected to offer high stakes for foreign manufacturers in India’s lucrative defence industry. Much of the selection process will demand up on the financial and ToT offer made by the companies.

In February, 2015, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) cleared the construction of six nuclear powered attack submarines (SSN) at an estimated cost of over INR 50,000 crore. The submarines will be designed by navy’s Directorate of Naval Design and are to be constructed at the state-run Hindustan Shipyard Limited (HSL), Vishakhapatnam. Sources have indicated that the submarine will be mainly based around the design of Russian origin Akula-class SSN. The design and development teams are expected to encounter no major hurdles as they have acquired prerequisite expertise following the successful construction of INS Arihant.

The navy will also be acquiring at least four Arihant-class nuclear powered ballistic missile (SSBN) submarines by 2022. These submarines are being constructed under the secretive Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) project. INS Arihant, the first of the four SSBN, is rumoured to have already entered service with the navy. The addition of Arihant, if true, will provide the country with credible second strike capability.

Arihant-class SSBNs are armed with the 750-KM ranged K-15 ‘Sagarika’ Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile (SLBM) and the 3500+ KM ranged K-4 SLBM. These missiles comprehensively allow India to drastically boost its deterrence capabilities by several folds.

A combined and comprehensive effort by all stakeholders can alone boost the operational capability of the Indian Navy’s submarine force. A synergy between stakeholders will effectively pave way for the navy to receive several of the under-construction and planned underwater combatants at least by the next decade.

it smells good for a next Scorpene batch.... 3 or 6.
Why? because Mazagon has reached the proper rate and quality of production, and Scorpene is the only one ready to be producing.

 

[captscooby81]

In our difficulties lies an opportunity for someone across the ocean ha ha ha ha :biggrin2::biggrin2: well if Scorpene is the only left out option and which can be produced sooner than why not ... 6 more .. but this time with Torpedo s please and also with possible AIP ..

it smells good for a next Scorpene batch.... 3 or 6.
Why? because Mazagon has reached the proper rate and quality of production, and Scorpene is the only one ready to be producing.

 

[lcafanboy]

How Indian Navy’s Kalvari Can Sink World’s Mightiest Carrier Battle Groups
By
Shivam Tiwari
-
April 7, 2017
0
130

Indian Navy is inducting it’s Kalvari class diesel-electric submarine’s fleet rapidly. Indian Navy’s Kalvari is a Scorpene class submarine. Indian Navy just signed the contract with a french company for six Scorpene Class submarines for Indian Navy.

Kalvari class was chosen over it’s Russian and German counterparts because of its combat capabilities. Kalvari Class is one of the most silent and technologically very sophisticated machines. Kalvari faced criticism when the sensitive data of the submarine was leaked about her capabilities. Indian Navy still inducted her with changes in her system. Recently, Indian Navy successfully test-fired Exocet Anti-Ship missile from INS Kalvari(The lead ship of the Kalvari Class fleet).

Exocet AsHM
Carrier Battle Groups are the large formation of battleships, which consist of anti-submarine vessels and aircraft, destroyers, frigates, submarine and an aircraft carrier. Carrier Battle Groups generally have huge security bubble supported by one or two nuclear submarines continuously. The important question to ponder is, how can the Kalvari class submarine, which is just a diesel electric submarine can sink the world’s mightiest carrier battle groups of the world.

Kalvari’s capabilities are over hyped but there are facts that back the lethal submarine, it is a very class relative of Sweden’s Gotland class diesel-electric attack submarine. Gotland class displaces 1600 tons of water and said to be one of the stealthiest submarines in the world. It is a masterpiece of Sweden naval advancement.

In 2005, there was a joint exercise between US Navy and Swedish Navy. Gotland class submarine of the Swedish Navy was tasked to attack the mighty US Carrier Battle Group. Gotland class dived and started hunting the US Ships. Despite having cutting edge anti-submarine capabilities. US flotilla didn’t able to trace or even find the small submarine. After sometime, US Ships targeted by torpedoes coming from nowhere. Gotland gone ghost underwater and started targeting USS Ronald Reagan(CVN-76). In the meantime, world’s most advance and highly sophisticated carrier battle group was sinking in front of a submarine which displaces 100 times less weight than the carrier.

HMS Gotland transits through San Diego Harbor with the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier USS Ronald Reagan (CVN 76).

Indian Navy’s Kalvari
INS Kalvari will enhance the future submarine capabilities of India in the sea. INS Kalvari could also target a massive fleet with efficiency, without compromising its position. It will be the game changer in such conflicts, the only threat to India currently is represented by China. China is increasing it’s aircraft fleet rapidly to dominate the Indian Ocean but Kalvari class submarine seems very capable of leveling the humongous Chinese naval fleet.
http://defencelover.in/indian-navy-kalvari-class-sink-world-carrier-battle-group/

 

[Prashant12]

India plans to buy three more Scorpenes

India’s first Scorpene submarine, Kalvari, in Mumbai. File | Photo Credit: PTI


Will push for several upgrades in the new vessels.

India and France will step up negotiations to expand the Scorpene submarine contract after the presidential elections in France in May. India will push for incorporating several upgrades in the proposed three new submarines that the two sides would be discussing, a senior defence official told The Hindu.

“We will look at the cost of the upgrades based on which we will take a call whether to go for the additional ones or carry on with the acquisition of the next line of submarines as planned,” the official said.

Mazgaon Docks Ltd. (MDL), Mumbai, is manufacturing six Scorpene conventional submarines with technology transfer from DCNS under a $3.75-billion deal signed in October 2005.

After a series of delays, the first submarine Kalvari is now in advanced stages of sea trials and expected to be commissioned in a few months. The second submarine Khanderi was launched in January and is undergoing sea trials.

Another official said that detailed discussions would be held at the India-France strategic dialogue, which is expected to take place around December.

As per plan, all submarines are expected to be launched from MDL by 2020 and both sides are on to firm up a deal before that to keep the production line running and preserve the expertise.

The upgrades will help address concerns of any compromise in the submarine’s capability following the leak of its technical specifications running into several thousands of pages in Australia last year.


http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/india-plans-to-buy-three-more-scorpenes/article17993433.ece

 

[Prashant12]

--------------------------------------------------------------

 

[BON PLAN]

India plans to buy three more Scorpenes

India’s first Scorpene submarine, Kalvari, in Mumbai. File | Photo Credit: PTI


Will push for several upgrades in the new vessels.

India and France will step up negotiations to expand the Scorpene submarine contract after the presidential elections in France in May. India will push for incorporating several upgrades in the proposed three new submarines that the two sides would be discussing, a senior defence official told The Hindu.

“We will look at the cost of the upgrades based on which we will take a call whether to go for the additional ones or carry on with the acquisition of the next line of submarines as planned,” the official said.

Mazgaon Docks Ltd. (MDL), Mumbai, is manufacturing six Scorpene conventional submarines with technology transfer from DCNS under a $3.75-billion deal signed in October 2005.

After a series of delays, the first submarine Kalvari is now in advanced stages of sea trials and expected to be commissioned in a few months. The second submarine Khanderi was launched in January and is undergoing sea trials.

Another official said that detailed discussions would be held at the India-France strategic dialogue, which is expected to take place around December.

As per plan, all submarines are expected to be launched from MDL by 2020 and both sides are on to firm up a deal before that to keep the production line running and preserve the expertise.

The upgrades will help address concerns of any compromise in the submarine’s capability following the leak of its technical specifications running into several thousands of pages in Australia last year.


http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/india-plans-to-buy-three-more-scorpenes/article17993433.ece

A very good news, for all side.

I'm sure we will see tighter links between India and France on fighters (Safranised Kaveri, more Rafale, maybe common studies on next gen fighter) and on submarines (this new batch of Scorpene, maybe a french help on Indian SSN ...)

 

[WolfPack86]

Navy working on Plan B to acquire conventional submarines in case the strategic partner model is delayed: big revelation by VAdm Deshpande
https://twitter.com/manupubby_ET?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

 

[WolfPack86]

Navy says all options open to acquire more submarines, including Govt to Govt deal or extension of Scorpene line at MDL.
https://twitter.com/manupubby_ET?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

 

[lcafanboy]

3-6 follow on SCORPENES with DRDO AIP are coming for sure. All these Subs will be made parallel to existing ones and will be delivered in next 5-6 years only ie by 2022/23. The follow on Scopenes will be significantly different than current ones and may have more fire power (read VLS). 3rd Scorpene will replace the oldest of type 209 and that sub will be used to test DRDO AIP once it successfully passes test on Land based prototype. So expect good news soon.

 

[lcafanboy]

Navy says all options open to acquire more submarines, including Govt to Govt deal or extension of Scorpene line at MDL.
https://twitter.com/manupubby_ET?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

The plan B stated here is G to G deal for Russian Kilo class which will be made in India under JV. Again DRDO AIP will be included.

 

[BON PLAN]

The plan B stated here is G to G deal for Russian Kilo class which will be made in India under JV. Again DRDO AIP will be included.

Why not.
Indian navy will have the opportunity soon to compare Kilo and Scorpene.... I doubt they will need Kilo after.

 

[abingdonboy]

The plan B stated here is G to G deal for Russian Kilo class which will be made in India under JV. Again DRDO AIP will be included.

Plan B is clearly (many) more Scorpenes, the production line(s) already exist in India along with the requisite expertise and supply chains and HUGE capital has been spent on them. It makes little sense to look elsewhere.

No one in India is foolish enough to consider a Russian JV as a swift alternative to deliver quick results. Look how long it has taken (still not over) to get a simple co-production agreement for 140 light helos from the Russians or look at the fate of the MTA and FGFA.

If the IN want a fast solution the Scorpene is the only option.

 

[lcafanboy]

Plan B is clearly (many) more Scorpenes, the production line(s) already exist in India along with the requisite expertise and supply chains and HUGE capital has been spent on them. It makes little sense to look elsewhere.

No one in India is foolish enough to consider a Russian JV as a swift alternative to deliver quick results. Look how long it has taken (still not over) to get a simple co-production agreement for 140 light helos from the Russians or look at the fate of the MTA and FGFA.

If the IN want a fast solution the Scorpene is the only option.

That's why it's plan B. And will only be implemented if talks with France for strategic partnership fails which most likely won't. Govt is waiting for Safran to deliver jet engine technology and ready to use Kaveri engine once it's done and French govt gives nod for SSN technology help with Barracuda the flood gates will open with 200+ Rafales, 3-6 Scorpenes, and many more things. Actually France will be able to ride on Indian economy for next 30+ years with order book worth a 100 billion dollars.

 

[sthf]

Good read about the Scorpene leak.

https://thewire.in/64410/the-scorpenes-sting/

 

[Adioz]

Good read about the Scorpene leak.

https://thewire.in/64410/the-scorpenes-sting/

The part I liked was at the end, where the article says that the leak itself should be used by the IN to create spoofing and countermeasures to confuse and frustrate enemy ASW efforts. Now that we know what the PLAN and PN will be looking for when they are trying to hunt our subs, we can use that very information against them and send them off hunting ghosts. Maybe the recent incident, where Pakistan claims that it detected Indian submarine in its waters and chased it away, was actually an exercise by the IN to test such a capability. If so, then we already have this capability now.

Maybe, just maybe, this entire debacle was actually a carefully planned misinformation campaign by the Navy?

 

[Thrishul]

Interesting thing is that the Project 75 contract has a optional clause of 6 more submarines.
Plan B is part of it with the IN going for 3 more.
Plan C could be to go for the Last 3 with a addition of a VLS cell and AIP tech.

 

[sthf]

@Adioz I seriously doubt that the leak was intentional but some possibility do exists.

 

[Kshatriya87]

How Indian Navy’s Kalvari Can Sink World’s Mightiest Carrier Battle Groups
By
Shivam Tiwari
-
April 7, 2017
0
130

Indian Navy is inducting it’s Kalvari class diesel-electric submarine’s fleet rapidly. Indian Navy’s Kalvari is a Scorpene class submarine. Indian Navy just signed the contract with a french company for six Scorpene Class submarines for Indian Navy.

Kalvari class was chosen over it’s Russian and German counterparts because of its combat capabilities. Kalvari Class is one of the most silent and technologically very sophisticated machines. Kalvari faced criticism when the sensitive data of the submarine was leaked about her capabilities. Indian Navy still inducted her with changes in her system. Recently, Indian Navy successfully test-fired Exocet Anti-Ship missile from INS Kalvari(The lead ship of the Kalvari Class fleet).

Exocet AsHM
Carrier Battle Groups are the large formation of battleships, which consist of anti-submarine vessels and aircraft, destroyers, frigates, submarine and an aircraft carrier. Carrier Battle Groups generally have huge security bubble supported by one or two nuclear submarines continuously. The important question to ponder is, how can the Kalvari class submarine, which is just a diesel electric submarine can sink the world’s mightiest carrier battle groups of the world.

Kalvari’s capabilities are over hyped but there are facts that back the lethal submarine, it is a very class relative of Sweden’s Gotland class diesel-electric attack submarine. Gotland class displaces 1600 tons of water and said to be one of the stealthiest submarines in the world. It is a masterpiece of Sweden naval advancement.

In 2005, there was a joint exercise between US Navy and Swedish Navy. Gotland class submarine of the Swedish Navy was tasked to attack the mighty US Carrier Battle Group. Gotland class dived and started hunting the US Ships. Despite having cutting edge anti-submarine capabilities. US flotilla didn’t able to trace or even find the small submarine. After sometime, US Ships targeted by torpedoes coming from nowhere. Gotland gone ghost underwater and started targeting USS Ronald Reagan(CVN-76). In the meantime, world’s most advance and highly sophisticated carrier battle group was sinking in front of a submarine which displaces 100 times less weight than the carrier.

HMS Gotland transits through San Diego Harbor with the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier USS Ronald Reagan (CVN 76).

Indian Navy’s Kalvari
INS Kalvari will enhance the future submarine capabilities of India in the sea. INS Kalvari could also target a massive fleet with efficiency, without compromising its position. It will be the game changer in such conflicts, the only threat to India currently is represented by China. China is increasing it’s aircraft fleet rapidly to dominate the Indian Ocean but Kalvari class submarine seems very capable of leveling the humongous Chinese naval fleet.
http://defencelover.in/indian-navy-kalvari-class-sink-world-carrier-battle-group/

Didn't understand the mention of Gotland class submarines. Are Kalvari / Scorpene class submarines similar to Gotland class?