In Himalayan arms race, China one-ups India

Ray

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In 1985 China reorganized its 11 military regions into 7 and Eight military regions were merged into four—Chengdu, Jinan, Lanzhou, and Nanjing—and three key regions—Beijing, Guangzhou, and Shenyang—remained intact.

Therefore, it will be observed how the Chinese have coalesced their front against India.
 

no smoking

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The two military regions in and around Tibet constitute more than this number. If you add Xinjiang or East Turmenistan the numbers would be more.

If not with the intention of quelling rebellion then why should be they there. India is a peace loving country. China has no threat from India.
China has no threat from india? You must be kidding me!
How many india members have screamed about taking back "occupied india lands" in this forum alone?
How many times, indian politicans raised china as one of the top enemies?
How many times, indian medias have indicate how far the new india missile could reach into China's soil?

No, india is not a peace loving country. It is the same as anyone else who would not hesitate to go into war when suits its interest.
 

no smoking

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The Chinese Govt and the CCP have made great efforts wherein money has been poured into Tibet, Chinese Communist propaganda has been instilled in the education, favours given to those who learn Mandarin and forsake Tibetan, having any number of children unlike in China where they are allowed only one child, and so on.

Even so, the Tibetans are not happy, and what is more, the Tibetans of Greater Tibet are also not happy and there are many events that indicate so.

This is a fact and this cannot be brushed under the carpet. It shows that the Tibetans are not ready to give up the singularity whether through allurement or force.

Yet, it is a dangerous situation for China.
It is dangerous but managable.


China is already giving assistance to the Maoists and other insurgent groups, directly and through proxies. That is nothing new.
Whatever China did (assume you are telling the truth) looks pale when hundredes thousands tibetan lamas sitting in your side for 60 years.

However, should a rebellion of some strength happens in Tibet, it will be put down by force and of that there is no doubt. But then, force cannot always win.

It will encourage others to also use the opportunity like the Uighurs and the Mongolians.

And then the fireworks will start.

India has no role to play.

It is a self combustion situation.
The same words was repeated by many people for hundreds years. The result is: most of them didn't succeed and their descendants completely became Han Chinese.
 

Ray

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It is dangerous but managable.
Complacency kills.


Whatever China did (assume you are telling the truth) looks pale when hundredes thousands tibetan lamas sitting in your side for 60 years.
That is what worries me.

These Tibetan exiles are getting more and more aggressive and virulent towards the Chinese occupation of Tibet.

They will ruin the relationship between India and China.


The same words was repeated by many people for hundreds years. The result is: most of them didn't succeed and their descendants completely became Han Chinese.
True.

They could be suppressed and annihilated because there was no globalisation as it is today.
 

Ray

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China has no threat from india? You must be kidding me!
Then, get kidded.

India is a peace loving country.

We retaliate only when attacked.

How many india members have screamed about taking back "occupied india lands" in this forum alone?
Members on this forum or any other forum are not policy makers.

How many times, indian politicans raised china as one of the top enemies?
The word is 'adversary'.


How many times, indian medias have indicate how far the new india missile could reach into China's soil?
It can reach China and that is a fact.

India, being a democracy, has a free media.

It cannot be controlled.

The Indian media also says that the Chinese missiles can reach India.

That is also a fact.

No, india is not a peace loving country. It is the same as anyone else who would not hesitate to go into war when suits its interest.
India is a peace loving country.
 

Bhadra

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China has no threat from india? You must be kidding me!
How many india members have screamed about taking back "occupied india lands" in this forum alone?
How many times, indian politicans raised china as one of the top enemies?
How many times, indian medias have indicate how far the new india missile could reach into China's soil?

No, india is not a peace loving country. It is the same as anyone else who would not hesitate to go into war when suits its interest.
India is a peace loving country and history is witness to that. Hence China has no threat from India.
China historically is a militaristic state and aggressive at that. China invaded India in 1962.
Occupied land must be returned and no one should be allowed occupy land gained militarily.
Tibet is an autonomous zone and not China.
 

ice berg

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India is a peace loving country and history is witness to that. Hence China has no threat from India.
China historically is a militaristic state and aggressive at that. China invaded India in 1962.
Occupied land must be returned and no one should be allowed occupy land gained militarily.
Tibet is an autonomous zone and not China.
You are so ignorant that it is not even funny.:rofl:

Militaristic state? China has always been the opposite. :rolleyes:
Pakistan is a militaristic state. China is not.
Maybe read some books about China before you show your ignorance.

China didnt invade India in 62. India placed troops in disputed areas first. Now google "disputed area".

Tibet is not part of China? Someone is still living in lala land.
Even your holy lama is saying Tibet is part of China. :p

"Tibet is a part of the People's Republic of China."
Tibet part of China, Dalai Lama agrees - World - www.smh.com.au
 

agentperry

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You are so ignorant that it is not even funny.:rofl:

Militaristic state? China has always been the opposite. :rolleyes:
Pakistan is a militaristic state. China is not.
Maybe read some books about China before you show your ignorance.

China didnt invade India in 62. India placed troops in disputed areas first. Now google "disputed area".

Tibet is not part of China? Someone is still living in lala land.
Even your holy lama is saying Tibet is part of China. :p

"Tibet is a part of the People's Republic of China."
Tibet part of China, Dalai Lama agrees - World - www.smh.com.au
china violate panchsheel. it made roads in indian side of border. if india then made close border post to defend its territory then howcome its aggression rather its self defence.
 

Hari Sud

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Do not sweat too much on Chinese infrastructure in Tibet. It is mostly flat land, hence easier to build than peaks rising alternately to 20,000 feet and dropping to 7,000 feet valley. Chinese are in a hostile land, hence need the infrastructure to control it. In a border dispute in Arunachal Pradesh, they will back down as they did in 1986-87 after threatening to overrun an Indian post. Indian army airlifted a brigade for the winter and kept it their for the winter. Chinese just did not venture to test the Indian resolve. With two new mountain division and one strike force of two division on the card or in the making, they would be much afraid to loose face and loose the 1962 propaganda advantage.

Moreover Chinese wish to sell India 100 billion dollars worth of consumer goods. They are not about to loose that large market because a hot head Chinese general thinks that he can have a walkover of the type they had in 1962.

Remember that Tibet is a hostile land they need half the troops in Tibet to keep it in tight control. Also with new naval rivalry with US in South China sea, Chinese would be for next generation focus on the still peaceful Himalayan border.
 
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Do not sweat too much on Chinese infrastructure in Tibet. It is mostly flat land, hence easier to build than peaks rising alternately to 20,000 feet and dropping to 7,000 feet valley. Chinese are in a hostile land, hence need the infrastructure to control it. In a border dispute in Arunachal Pradesh, they will back down as they did in 1986-87 after threatening to overrun an Indian post. Indian army airlifted a brigade for the winter and kept it their for the winter. Chinese just did not venture to test the Indian resolve. With two new mountain division and one strike force of two division on the card or in the making, they would be much afraid to loose face and loose the 1962 propaganda advantage.


Moreover Chinese wish to sell India 100 billion dollars worth of consumer goods. They are not about to loose that large market because a hot head Chinese general thinks that he can have a walkover of the type they had in 1962.

Remember that Tibet is a hostile land they need half the troops in Tibet to keep it in tight control. Also with new naval rivalry with US in South China sea, Chinese would be for next generation focus on the still peaceful Himalayan border.
India has been also training for many years with US special forces along the
himalayan border and new airfields , AWACS and artillery,mountain regiments
pushed along the border will be a bloody nose for the chinese.

U.S Special Forces to Hold Joint Exercises with Indian Army in Ladakh | India Defence
 

Hari Sud

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Hello guys

Read my views together with views expressed by "Lethalforce".

I am from Himachal Pradesh. I know how hard is to build roads. Chinese have about two-third less problem while building roads in Tibet.

To add to Chinese infrastructure problem; the Tibet railway is partly built on permafrost. It will so easy to melt it away and and deny the Chinese any re-inforcements.
 

Ray

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Tibetan Railway on permafrost is still functional and they had no problems, though problems are now happening.

But still very marginal.

*****************

Mixed messages from Beijing on Tibet railroad - Permafrost may endanger its safety within a decade

Beijing has reported that the railroad linking the Tibetan plateau to central China has opened for freight, and will start unmanned test runs next month, following an unusual official admission that thawing permafrost on the Qinghai-Tibet plateau could threaten the safe operation of the railroad in as little as ten years. Despite these warnings of the possible limited timeline for the railway project, the Chinese press has reported major commemorations of the opening of the railway in July. The railway is described as the 'centerpiece' of China's Western development campaign.

New images of the railroad development obtained by ICT show the new station in Lhasa as well as depicting early indicators of the environmental impact of the 33 billion yuan ($4 billion) project, which has been prioritized by the Chinese authorities as a key element of the PRC's drive to develop the Western regions, including Tibetan areas.

Statements in the English-language Chinese media over the past three months have warned that rising temperatures on the Qinghai-Tibet plateau are likely to lead to melting permafrost and an increase in the instability of the ground, threatening the viability of the railway in just a decade's time. The impact of thawing permafrost on the plateau was first reported in the Chinese press last year, but it was estimated then that the railway would be threatened only after 45 years (see the Congressional Executive Commission on China report, Thawing permafrost may threaten Qinghai-Tibet railroad in 10 years). But on January 22, Professor Wu Ziwang, a senior expert at the Chinese Academy of Sciences' 'frozen soil laboratory', was quoted as saying: "Due to the melting permafrost, I am worried that after 10 years the railroad will be unsafe" (Chinese-language report, Beijing News). In a Xinhua article on February 5, Professor Wu said: "Fast thawing of frozen soil in the plateau might greatly increase the instability of the ground, causing more grave geological problems in the frozen soil areas where major projects such as highways or railways run through...The changes could threaten the railway in a decade."

Approximately 550 kilometers of the Qinghai-TAR railroad track (about 300 miles) runs on frozen earth. Deputy Director General La Youyu of the railroad project headquarters says: "Frozen earth is vulnerable to climate change, which will thaw in summer and distend the railway base in winter" (Xinhuanet, August 24, 2005). La Youyu was speaking following the laying of tracks at 5,072 meters above sea level in the Tibetan area of Amdo last year - 255 meters higher than the record of world railway altitude previously held by Peru at 4,817 meters above sea level in the Andes. The authorities have reported on various efforts to ward off the effect from frozen soil shrinkage, including ventilation conduits that have been built beneath the roadbed of one section of the railroad (Xinhua, February 6, 2006).

The Chinese press reported in December that the railroad would begin a full-route trial operation for commercial passenger transportation in July 2006, six months earlier than expected, and that cargo transportation was available from March onwards. It is not known whether the new awareness of the consequences of thawing permafrost was linked to the advance in construction of the railroad. Xinhua reported on April 15, 2006 that the Golmud-Lhasa section of the railway will start unmanned test runs from May 1.

The new Lhasa station, winter 2006. The slogans on each side of the fa?ade read (left to right): "A warm welcome to the high leaders arrived at the Lhasa Station construction site to inspect and direct the works" and "Scientific organization and united struggle for the achievements in the hard struggle aimed at the 'three classes'".

Further reports in the Chinese media this month refer to the consequences of warming of the Tibetan plateau. A senior engineer from the TAR was reported by Xinhua as saying that the phenomena of water springing from dry areas and the flooding of lakes in Nagchu (Chinese: Naqu) prefecture is caused by global warming (Xinhua, April 11). The same report says that the occurrences date back to 2000, which coincides with the first announcements of the construction of the railway.

A China Tibet Information Center report on April 12 announced that: "A large scale TV activity 'Tibet Travel' was launched by Shanghai Media Group to record the history of first train entering Tibet through Qinghai-Tibet Railway and cover the important event that China establishes a 'sky railway'." It is likely that foreign reporters will also be invited to cover the opening ceremonies.

The impact of Lhasa's new railroad station: village relocated, river course narrowed

The new railway station complex lies on the southern banks of the Lhasa Kyichu river on the site of the former rural village Ne'eu (Chinese: Liuwu), which was demolished to make way for the development, and all the villagers relocated in a brand new village one kilometer south of its original location. Ne'eu was previously a traditional village of mud and stone houses with large courtyards (see pictures here). In January, work units were setting down the rail tracks entering the station area, while building was still in progress inside the station area. The slogans on each side of the railway station fa?ade read "A warm welcome to the high leaders arrived at the Lhasa Station construction site to inspect and direct the works" and "Scientific organization and united struggle for the achievements in the hard struggle aimed at the 'three classes'".

The Golmud-Lhasa railway has been described by the Chinese press as the 'centerpiece of China's ongoing "develop the West" program' (China Daily, December 2004). Beijing's campaign to develop the PRC's western regions, including the Tibetan autonomous areas, is a high-profile political campaign, initiated by the then Party Secretary and President Jiang Zemin in 1999. The leadership has continued to be involved in promoting Western development at the highest level - in February last year China's Party Secretary and President Hu Jintao stressed the "necessity to persistently apply the scientific concept of development to direct work in order to unswervingly push forward the large-scale development of the Western region", also stating that the Party must "accelerate the building of infrastructure facilities" (Xinhua in Chinese, February 5 2005). At a dinner at the Chinese Embassy last night (April 20, 2006) in Washington, DC, visiting President Hu Jintao again referred to the importance of this campaign.

The Lhasa landscape is being restructured in preparation for the railroad. The Chingdrol Kyil Road (Chinese: Jinzhu xilu) has been enlarged, and two ring roads connecting the Ne'eu train station area with central Lhasa are now nearly complete. The image above depicts work in progress of a bridge for cars over the Kyichu river in January, which will connect the Chindrol Lam (Peaceful Liberation Road) with Lhasa station. This bridge is in addition to the railroad bridge connecting Toelung Dechen county (Duilongdeqing) with the Ne'eu area. Eyewitness reports indicate that in order to support the road bridge, construction workers had to alter and reinforce the banks of the river in certain areas, which has had the effect of narrowing the river channel and according to observers may exacerbate the risk of flooding later.

A slogan near the main construction site reads: 'The construction of the great Liuwu bridge will accelerate national unity'. Western development strategies in Tibetan areas are carried out according to the Party's political and economic priorities and in order to accelerate the further integration of these areas into the rest of the PRC.

Although Party officials previously rejected reports that the construction of the railroad would be likely to increase the influx of Chinese migrants into Tibetan areas, last year an official report acknowledged that the development would "attract tourists, traders and ethnic Chinese settlers" to the Tibet Autonomous Region (China Daily, October 15, 2005). The Congressional-Executive Commission on China points to the Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region as a precedent: 'Railroads there were built decades ago, and ethnic Han now outnumber ethnic Mongols by more than five to one". The extension of the railroad in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region (East Turkestan) from Urumqi to Kashgar has led to increasing numbers of Chinese migrants arriving in the oasis city and further marginalization of the Uyghur population.

http://www.savetibet.org/media-cent...frost-may-endanger-its-safety-within-a-decade
 
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Bhadra

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Sir whatever, It is a great achievement.... even if is open for two months in a years that is sufficient to dump a logistic load for three Armies...
 

Ray

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Indeed, it is a fantastic achievement.

The world thought it could not be done and China proved that they can!
 

Hari Sud

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I do not wish to agree with Either Ray or Bhadra above. They are impressed by the seven years old paper published as quoted above. An army at peace can get its supplies in three months for a year. An an army at war within four weeks consumers one year's supplies. Hence the point here is that the four billion dollars spent by the Chinese was not to fight with India but to control restive Tibet. This achievement was essential as well as show-off, otherwise loosing Tibet to Dalai Lama is a foregone conclusion.

If the permafrost melts every summer, imagine fixing the bridges, tunnels and the elevated ground to run a locomotive at 60 miles an hour and pulling 50 bogies is a worthless effort making no economic sense.

Imagine India targetting rail tunnel on permafrost with naplam bombs. There would be panick in PLA.

The point here is that China would even stop posturing at the Himalayas sooner than the later. They know their weaknesses. In the meantime India every year is readier than before, in case the Chinese do want to fight.
 
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I do not wish to agree with Either Ray or Bhadra above. They are impressed by the seven years old paper published as quoted above. An army at peace can get its supplies in three months for a year. An an army at war within four weeks consumers one year's supplies. Hence the point here is that the four billion dollars spent by the Chinese was not to fight with India but to control restive Tibet. This achievement was essential as well as show-off, otherwise loosing Tibet to Dalai Lama is a foregone conclusion.

If the permafrost melts every summer, imagine fixing the bridges, tunnels and the elevated ground to run a locomotive at 60 miles an hour and pulling 50 bogies is a worthless effort making no economic sense.

Imagine India targetting rail tunnel on permafrost with naplam bombs. There would be panick in PLA.

The point here is that China would even stop posturing at the Himalayas sooner than the later. They know their weaknesses. In the meantime India every year is readier than before, in case the Chinese do want to fight.
The weapons to use will be PINAKA with air dropped CBU-105's or maybe this:

http://articles.economictimes.india...os-aerospace-federal-state-unitary-enterprise
Army to order mountain-strike BrahMos regiment soon
 
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Bhadra

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The weapons to use will be PINAKA with air dropped CBU-105's or maybe this:

Army to order mountain-strike BrahMos regiment soon - Economic Times
Army to order mountain-strike BrahMos regiment soon
How would pianaca raech 150 to 250 km deep? I would have agreed had you said Brahmos.

An army at peace can get its supplies in three months for a year. An an army at war within four weeks consumers one year's supplies.
Army stocks for the year including to conduct sustained operation for expected period and intensity. If Army consumes one years stock in 12 days they will stock accordingly. Their train should run only for two months in the years and that is enough to stock to feed three Armies and all Tibetans. These mountain can not sustain more than two months of military operation in any season.

What about eight massive airfield close to border and massive Chinese airlift capabilities?
 

Hari Sud

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Those massive airfields in Tibet and massive Chinese airlift capability are on the paper only. They are more like Paper Tigers. A plane at 7000 ft height carries half load and requires double the real estate to land. No armies would ever depend upon it.

In my opinion Chinese would posture but would never pick up fight with India. Because if more aggressive Indian Army denies them their objective of Tawang town or entry via Chumbi valley, the history would record it as their defeat. Chinese in their current mindset are not ready to let the history to record a Chinese defeat at Indian hand.
 

Bhadra

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Those massive airfields in Tibet and massive Chinese airlift capability are on the paper only. They are more like Paper Tigers. A plane at 7000 ft height carries half load and requires double the real estate to land. No armies would ever depend upon it.

In my opinion Chinese would posture but would never pick up fight with India. Because if more aggressive Indian Army denies them their objective of Tawang town or entry via Chumbi valley, the history would record it as their defeat. Chinese in their current mindset are not ready to let the history to record a Chinese defeat at Indian hand.
Capabilities and intentions are two different aspects. However, intent will depend largely on capabilities.
In 162, China was almost starving and their relation with USSR were deteriorating. Their Army was fatigued of the Korian war. They had no hopes of sucess against veteran India Army. Still they attacked and attained their objective of bringing Nehru's downfall.

Intentions can change but capacities is comparatively a stable factor.
 

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