In 1987 when Army almost broke Pakistan into four and govt said 'NO'

Mikesingh

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Bhai, this might be a bad question. How do you rate Bipin Rawat as a strategist? He is from the same school as Gen Sunderji, right? Considering he too is offense, rather than defensive offense?
Both have their own niche strategies. But considering that Gen Sundarjee operated under the constraints of a political dispensation of that time which didn't have the balls to stand up to the Chinese or for that matter even Pak, I think he gets a one-up against Rawat.
 

sthf

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I see no depth in this argument.

I request posters to explain military posturing, attacking formations, supply lines, ammunition dumps, engineering and medical corps preparedness that suggests the attack on Pakistan was imminent.

This is sensationalist twist to a brilliant military exercise that scared the shit out of Pakistan including Americans.

We never had as calibered General as General Krishnaswamy Sundarji. No wonder his actions became legends.
I agree. Brasstacks was a proof of concept of Sundarji doctrine. Pakis on the other hand shat their pants anticipating a war and Zia came running to Bangalore.

It was not a conducive environment. US was adamant to make Afghanistan the Russian "Vietnam", last thing they would had turned a blind eye to is their MuNNA (Major Non NATO Ally) cut in half.

India was already heading towards bankruptcy and even if succeeded Unkil would have had paid back in kind before or after the dissolution of USSR.
 

Indian Sniper.001

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Both have their own niche strategies. But considering that Gen Sundarjee operated under the constraints of a political dispensation of that time which didn't have the balls to stand up to the Chinese or for that matter even Pak, I think he gets a one-up against Rawat.
Bhai, No. You got my question wrong. I didn't compare the two. Obviously, Gen Sunderji is a legend and will always be one, and Gen Rawat is carving a name for himself to go down as one of the best Generals in Mil History.
I was asking how do you rate his strategies?
 

Mikesingh

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Bhai, No. You got my question wrong. I didn't compare the two. Obviously, Gen Sunderji is a legend and will always be one, and Gen Rawat is carving a name for himself to go down as one of the best Generals in Mil History.
I was asking how do you rate his strategies?
Sorry buddy, but I couldn't figure out your question. Who's strategy? What specific strategy are you implying?
 

mayfair

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Gen Sundarji was probably responsible for the biggest overhaul of our warring and fighting strategies post-independence. How the formations needed to be organised going into 21st century, how to adapt and respond to evolving enemy tactics and strengths etc. I think much of the modern military tactics that IA follows, started to be conceived and implemented during Gen Sundarji's tenure.

@Kunal Biswas @Mikesingh @hammer head can clarify.
 

Indian Sniper.001

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Sorry buddy, but I couldn't figure out your question. Who's strategy? What specific strategy are you implying?
Gen Rawat's strategy and dealing with Kashmir, TSP and terrorists right now. I meant that he is of the same school as Gen Sunderji taking the fact that Gen Rawat gives more impetus on offense rather than defensive offense. Yes, we are yet to see more when it comes to Pak though. But, my gut feeling is that Gen Rawat was not just superseded and made the General just for cleaning Kashmir, there is a bigger picture that is unavailable to us.
 

sayareakd

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Around 1990, we were almost ready to attack them, then at the end it was withdrawn, next day Benazir Bhutto's govt fallen.
 

no smoking

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Anyway, I am familiar with the area and was on the spot when this was going on. So don't try and clutch at straws to prove that the Chinese withdrew under 'diplomatic agreements' as mentioned in the links you took the trouble of posting to try and prove your point.


The fact is that the PLA was ordered to get the hell out of there, which was conveyed to them in the flag meetings, or face the consequences. They understood the seriousness of the issue and quickly withdrew.

This is very funny, even the article you quote doesn’t say that PLA was ordered to get the hell out of there. Instead the paper said:” He said the next several years were spent in the two sides discussing disengagement leading to the end of the confrontation in 1992.”


Your “Quickly withdrew” didn’t end the confrontation until 1992.


All this crap about them moving 20000 PLA troops in East Tibet is bullshit. They just readjusted their troops which were already deployed in the sector.

Yes, of course, you were again there watching the PLA’s deployment within Tibet.


I don’t know how old you are, but why don’t you put some documents agree with you that Chinese was quickly withdrew under the threat of brave India general.
 

AMCA

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This is very funny, even the article you quote doesn’t say that PLA was ordered to get the hell out of there. Instead the paper said:” He said the next several years were spent in the two sides discussing disengagement leading to the end of the confrontation in 1992.”


Your “Quickly withdrew” didn’t end the confrontation until 1992.





Yes, of course, you were again there watching the PLA’s deployment within Tibet.


I don’t know how old you are, but why don’t you put some documents agree with you that Chinese was quickly withdrew under the threat of brave India general.

https://www.thequint.com/voices/opinion/operation-falcon-sundarji-took-china-by-surprise

Quoting from the above link.

The team camped there through summer and went back in winter. They did so in 1984 and 1985, but when they went back in 1986, they found the Chinese there in force. The Indians protested in June 1986, but the Chinese insisted that the area was north of the “so-called McMahon Line.”

All this happened in the wake of the Chinese decision to do one of those foreign policy somersaults they periodically do.
During the border talks of 1985, the Chinese suddenly took the line that there was a bigger problem on the eastern sector and only if India gave concessions there, would it be willing to offer concessions on the western sector, the Indian side was baffled.Soon it became clear that the Chinese were upping the ante in the east.

The decision was taken, therefore, to shore up Indian defences in the region. As part of this, the Army devised Operation Falcon to enable it to move up to the border in quick time from their peacetime positions.
Since there was no road beyond Tawang, Gen Sundarji decided to use the IAF’s new Russian-made heavy lift MI-26 helicopters to air land a brigade at a place called Zemithang, south of the Sino-Indian border but 90 kms by road from Tawang.

The airlift took place between 18 and 20 October 1986, the dates fraught in Indian history as they marked the beginning of the Sino-Indian war 24 years earlier in this very sector. They took up positions on Hathung La ridge overlooking Sumdorong Chu along with three other key mountain features. In 1962, the Chinese held the high ground; this time, the Indians.

With China scrambling to rush forces to the region, both sides began a general mobilisation along the entire border. Here again, Sundarji had a few surprises.

Innovatively using the heavy lift assets, which included Il-76 aircraft and the AN-26 helicopter, the Army placed T-72 tanks and infantry combat vehicles in the Demchok area of Ladakh and northern Sikkim.
India decided to take the opportunity to convert Arunachal, which was a centrally administered territory till then, into a full-fledged state.

The Chinese were so impressed by Sundarji that they invited him to visit China. They were curious to meet the person who had in the space of one year, shaken up both the Pakistan Army through Exercise Brasstacks and the PLA through Op Falcon, and led India into a military venture in Sri Lanka.
After he retired, Sundarji visited China
 
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AMCA

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in 1987, Pakistan was busy engaging soviets in Afghanistan. We could have easily disintegrated pakistan into four but unfortunately our dhoti clad politicians messed up the plans and we lost a golden opportunity.
 

lcafanboy

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in 1987, Pakistan was busy engaging soviets in Afghanistan. We could have easily disintegrated pakistan into four but unfortunately our dhoti clad politicians messed up the plans and we lost a golden opportunity.
By the way, it was Suit - Boot clad Bada RaGa Rajiv Gand dhi. Father of now legendary national Joker RaGa junior aka Rahul baba.:biggrin2:

Bada RaGa too was a Joker so it's hereditary, "Hamne yeh Kari Hai" was his punch line.:biggrin2:
 

VIP

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By the way, it was Suit - Boot clad Bada RaGa Rajiv Gand dhi. Father of now legendary national Joker RaGa junior aka Rahul baba.:biggrin2:

Bada RaGa too was a Joker so it's hereditary, "Hamne yeh Kari Hai" was his punch line.:biggrin2:
Whatever flaws Sanjay Gandhi had, he was a maverick politician and could have given green signal to sundarji. Unfortunately the politician SaGa tried to be pilot and got killed, pilot bada RaGa tried to be politician and got killed.
 

AnantS

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in 1987, Pakistan was busy engaging soviets in Afghanistan. We could have easily disintegrated pakistan into four but unfortunately our dhoti clad politicians messed up the plans and we lost a golden opportunity.
India did not want Pakistan to fall, for her it was a buffer during that times! Her major worry when Afghanistan was invaded by Soviet - was Soviet itself! --- as some writings say
 
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roma

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Ex Brasstacks was conducted in the deserts of Rajasthan, near the Pakistani border, which was an ideal location from which to launch a deep thrust offensive into the Pakistani state of Sindh that could cut Pakistan in half and probably more.
thats why the chimps have helped packland to build bunkers in areas ajacent to rajasthan
we held an exercise and showed them the weak spots and now they are covering them
we need to act once an take territory and hold on to it
anything less we are just losers

ref
I don't think Murika would have allowed something like that in 1987. They were invested too much in Pakistan at the time.
Before murika had any chance, we would have detached sindh, Balochistan from Pakistan. But, bada raga got the wind and didn't allow it.
We should have had more will to act than think about US or others. We are such a let down for our own army's morale.
I see no depth in this argument.

I request posters to explain military posturing, attacking formations, supply lines, ammunition dumps, engineering and medical corps preparedness that suggests the attack on Pakistan was imminent.

This is sensationalist twist to a brilliant military exercise that scared the shit out of Pakistan including Americans.

We never had as calibered General as General Krishnaswamy Sundarji. No wonder his actions became legends.
Sir ji,who in your opinion has been the best general in IA history??????

__________________________________________
Should have done that, probably would have been a one lesser headache, who knows.

Sent from my vivo 1601 using Tapatalk
Congress itself is the worst enemy of this Nation. Communal arena mentality runs deep in there conscience.
Bhai, this might be a bad question. How do you rate Bipin Rawat as a strategist? He is from the same school as Gen Sunderji, right? Considering he too is offense, rather than defensive offense?
!![/QUOTE]
 

hit&run

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It was never a plan to attack a Pakistan.

This was purely an exercise that happened in 4 stages. Only the last exercise/stage manoeuvring strike formations were asked to move from east to west axis.
.......................

When I requested posters to explain the formations I should have been more clear even though I asked what suggests the attack on Pakistan was imminent.

The answer given by good poster @Mikesingh is available on wikipedia but no where the chronology of events is explained neither the proof that he was ought to divide Pakistan.

1.
There was no evacuation of population.

2.
Central Government was not aware of any such plans, Only at a party organised to celebrate Military day in New Delhi Western Command General inadvertently told Rajiv Gandhi that his troops soon will be passing the Battle stations.

And it was all to validate operation doctrine in real war like scenario.

Before this reception western command General was told off by Sunderji that it is not his job to ask him (the COAS) if he has made GOI aware of this exercise or not. So he played safe by telling Rajiv Gandhi that it is due to Pakistani build up as they have started moving their troops from north to south towards their battle stations.

This is a big give away that there was no element of surprise left and Gen Sunderji was aware of it as he categorically told Western Command General that Pakistani reaction is on expected lines.

3. The Pakistani build up to counter Indian build up triggered a chain reaction that India started to respond by more build up. This is where talk of actual war became frantic as more confusion piled up where every stake holder became active; to deescalate.

# Gen. Sunderji was no fool not to evacuate population as Pakistan would have attacked whole IB especially the fronts they are strongest.

# General would have attacked before Pakistani build up and kept the element of surprise to his advantage but he waited. He would have knew that eventually everyone will become alarmed so had acted before Pakistan. But it was never his intention.

# Ammunition dumps kept coming by trains with building up troops along whole western front even after the so called plan to attack Pakistan was disclosed, foreign countries started putting pressure and media like BBC reached western fronts to find out what has been happening there.

This suggests we were not ready till later stages; before deescalation. Pivoting Bikaner to slice Sindh we would have been too short legged and too short of fire power.

What would had that invading force achieved if we were thinking of freeing Sindh as a new political entity ?

Diddly-squat.

Cause-Effect..... eh ??

There was no political backing, no diplomatic efforts, last but not least no "Casus Belli"
 

Mikesingh

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It was never a plan to attack a Pakistan.

This was purely an exercise that happened in 4 stages. Only the last exercise/stage manoeuvring strike formations were asked to move from east to west axis.
.......................

When I requested posters to explain the formations I should have been more clear even though I asked what suggests the attack on Pakistan was imminent.

The answer given by good poster @Mikesingh is available on wikipedia but no where the chronology of events is explained neither the proof that he was ought to divide Pakistan.

1.
There was no evacuation of population.

2.
Central Government was not aware of any such plans, Only at a party organised to celebrate Military day in New Delhi Western Command General inadvertently told Rajiv Gandhi that his troops soon will be passing the Battle stations.

And it was all to validate operation doctrine in real war like scenario.

Before this reception western command General was told off by Sunderji that it is not his job to ask him (the COAS) if he has made GOI aware of this exercise or not. So he played safe by telling Rajiv Gandhi that it is due to Pakistani build up as they have started moving their troops from north to south towards their battle stations.

This is a big give away that there was no element of surprise left and Gen Sunderji was aware of it as he categorically told Western Command General that Pakistani reaction is on expected lines.

3. The Pakistani build up to counter Indian build up triggered a chain reaction that India started to respond by more build up. This is where talk of actual war became frantic as more confusion piled up where every stake holder became active; to deescalate.

# Gen. Sunderji was no fool not to evacuate population as Pakistan would have attacked whole IB especially the fronts they are strongest.

# General would have attacked before Pakistani build up and kept the element of surprise to his advantage but he waited. He would have knew that eventually everyone will become alarmed so had acted before Pakistan. But it was never his intention.

# Ammunition dumps kept coming by trains with building up troops along whole western front even after the so called plan to attack Pakistan was disclosed, foreign countries started putting pressure and media like BBC reached western fronts to find out what has been happening there.

This suggests we were not ready till later stages; before deescalation. Pivoting Bikaner to slice Sindh we would have been too short legged and too short of fire power.

What would had that invading force achieved if we were thinking of freeing Sindh as a new political entity ?

Diddly-squat.

Cause-Effect..... eh ??

There was no political backing, no diplomatic efforts, last but not least no "Casus Belli"
As one of the umpires for the' Exercise', I would like to mention that an attack deep into Pak was war gamed several times under different scenarios. But the stakes, both internal as well as external were too high as I have brought out in my earlier post. Keeping all factors in mind, the plan was finally shelved though all paraphernalia for an offensive was in place.

As you have rightly mentioned, the disadvantages far outweighed the objective of the 'Exercise'.
 
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