If the Indian Army had to start a war with Pakistan

[Kunal Biswas]

Why should India destry Pakistan? in 1965 and 1971, India lamost destryed the country but what achievement towards finding a solution?

kunal you seem to be a good boy. So read Stephen P Cohen's books, Indian Army, Pakistan army, India and emerging power. He and many others have described 1948, 1965 and even 1971 as nothing more than a communal roits between the two countries. It was in that context.

and achieve which aim... what will the solution Pak would agree to after that. they are so slippery they do not even agree to the Shimla agreement. Wars must have an end state....

So live with it and keep getting F****d ! As per you it is inevitable... the idea of the post is to find a solution...

Yes, the bold part 'almost' unfinished work, We should have destroyed there ability to organize under one nation, Today is actually better than before..


Then you are like 'Grand Uncle', I see them as aliens, i dont have emotion but only destruction of there system and what logical..


They are merely Tribal warlords in suits, I dont think they understand civilized way of talking, Proved again and again..


No, In this case there is no defined regular organize army or a Air-force, We have to only think about Insurgency .

We cannot end insurgency there is no solution for that..

 

[Bhadra]

One last question off topic :

Is this not clear to defense establishment/Govt leadership that only way to end terror menace is by dismantling PA? All other efforts are only for biding time.

Assuming it is clear, what stops them from attacking Pukistan? In short what is the threshold if there is any?

Does this all boils down to Politicos lacking balls?

One thing is clear to any one who has been a student of political History of India.
Insurgencies, militancies, terrorism is ingrained in the process of India's political and economic integration post independence. It is engrained in its lingual, regional and economic diversity.

These have been further accentuated by bad governace, buracratic neglect and mismanagement, political apathy, poor economics and lack of development.

These million mutinies inside India have been badly exploited earlier by the UAS and West, Pakistan and China on the other hand.

India was able to mange her insurgencies and insurrection largely but these got over only after foreign supports was withdrawn or dried up.


Today, the Islamic discontentment is a historical baggage as also a social reality of abject neglect for Islamic communities in India. Islamic terrorism in in India is not solely the fault of Pakistan but ground realities of a sense of discrimination and persecution does exist amongst Islamic communities.


On top of that electoral politics makes it stark.


So what does India want?

Indian politics and administration is well intentioned to assuage their feelings and massage their ill feeling through development and enlarged participation. However, Pakistan is playing in troubled waters and exploiting this religiosity to harm India and foment terrorism.

Therefore, in order to deter Pakistan from exploring this inherent weakness of India, if need be, military means be applied as Pakistani actions are going against Indian national interest of development for the society and harming our core value of Secularism.


That was the topic. The topic was political aim of India. This is the political aim. Pakistan must be deterred in destroying the communal fabric of India.

These are the simplest words I could mange to explain things.

 

[ashicjose]

Yar that is not the topic...

Yes it is not, but it was the answer to your post.Before going for the war we need to takeout the Islamic bombs otherwise it will fell in to the hands of Jihadist's and truly I don't believe that we are in a position to take out all the warheads by our own.For Americans its easy coz they are staying there and they have all the means to do so and after that they can act neutral by saying they just secured it.By the time we can play our side. See its so simple

 

[Bhadra]

ashic

you do not read others post... Islamic bombs are out of the subject. It has been said that assume Pakistan has no bombs.. then tell me why should govt attack Pakistan and what should be the objectives of IA ?

Simple as that..

 

[LETHALFORCE]

so you are advocating NPT/ But membership to Nuclear club is closed !!

We are already in the nuclear club whether the world accepts it or not
I am against NPT membership until India has test data and
MIRV megatonnage nukes

 

[Bhadra]

Please answer the original topic questions rather than forcing me to answer off topic questions.

 

[rock127]

@yususf and others

Two Basic Presumptions.

A war has be waged with a clear cut political and tangible aims.
War as a means of achieving an aim will be resorted to if other means have failed.

In Indo Pak context

1947 - Pakistan started war - Aim - annexation of J&K - Result Failed. End result - Status quo.
1965 - Pakistan started war - Aim - annexation of J&K - Result Failed. End Result - Status quo.
1971 - India started War - aim Liberation of Bangladesh _ result - India succeeded . End- Pakistan bifurcated.
1984-86 India premepted Pakistan and occupied Siachin. End Pakistan denied strategic advantage.
1999 - Pakistan intruded in Kargil - aim to pressurise India to vacate Siachin and internalise the issue of J&K - Failed. End result - status quo.

For a futuristic war which IA has to wage on Pakistan:

What will be the political aims. That is, what the country want to achieve vis a vis Pakistan?
Secondly, how will that be achieved militarily (for example by capture of territory or by destruction of Pakistani army or forcing Pakistan to sign on and deliver on a treaty, by dividing Pakistan, etc ect)

You clearly spell on the last part : What are the Political aims and objectives of India with respect to Pakistan (say for example, for USA, thei poltical aim can be de- nuclearisation of Pakistan so also that of India)

So first thing first ! Can any one spell that out.

Pakistan started 1971 war.It was the pre-emptive Pakistani Air Force attack(with 50 planes) inside 500 kms of India(on Agra) which resulted Indian declaring war as a counter measure.Till now the only pre-emptive attack by India against Pakistan is Siachin which was successful as well.

No I don't want the next war, launched by india to be just a punishment or teach a lesson kind like what china attempted on India.

I really don't know I our political leadership has even given a passing thought at considering this possibility and formulating any plans. Lack of strategic foresight.

The basic premise has to be understood that no matter what, there can be no peace with Pakistan. The relations are NOT salvageable even if Kashmir is handed on a platter to them. The current kind of warfare imposed on us by Pakistan, terror and low intensity conflicts will continue even after a "settlement" on Kashmir. They will come up with new excuses and blame on non state actors.

One of the political aims India should have is to break up Pakistan. Baloch and Sindh has to go separate. That will make Pakistan land locked and at a huge disadvantage and potentially crippled. Add to that reclaiming strategic areas of ours held by them, Gilgit Baltistan.

Primary threat will be of Pakistani nukes. There are two points to think about on this.

1) can we negate the threat of Pakistsn striking us with nukes.
a) take them out in the initial phase of the war. It does not have to a be a nuclear first strike from us to take them out.
b) have a credible missile defence in place so that anything that escaped out strike, can be countered.

2) Acceptable (well nothing is when it comes to loss, still) damage we are willing to take in case Pakistan still manages to strike us with nukes.


Diplomatically and militarily, will we be able to convince bigger and other powers to join hands with us to denuke and dismember Pakistan, more so the Denuking part than dismember which india can achieve alone as well. Will our political class realize this and sell this concept to relevant world powers so that they assist/stay quiet while we go about our business?

This primarily means US, it's a double faced country which is hard to trust.They have always used Pakistan as a proxy to keep India in check and they would do the same in future as well.Don't go by their helpless situation they are into in AF-Pak region.They would still back Pakistan once the matter is solved.The only way US would launch a direct attack on Pakistan is when there is any successful attack by Pakistan inside US mainland.

There is no use of "attacking" Pakistan, because Pakistan is itself in a stage of dismembering, just that India should take care of itself by strengthening its own Political Leadership and Military modernization and provide "moral support" to any party which is fed up of Pakistan and it's evil Pakjabis.

Believe it or not, India is still not in a position where we can launch quick massive pre-emptive attack(which primarily means Air Force) which can simply outclass and outnumber Pakistan.More than military India needs strong witted and strategic leader which is extremely difficult specially today.

 

[Bhadra]

@rock127

you mean to say manage USA in order to manage Pakistan. Right?

 

[Zebra]

If India some how decide to attack Pakistan, than it will be a good idea to inform US and western countries first?

And try to get their help if they are ready.

Well, I think they will join with India. In-fact they may say----- 'lol, we are waiting for this day since very long. Let's do it'.

What say?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

If India some how decide to attack Pakistan, than it will be a good idea to inform US and western countries first?

And try to get their help if they are ready.

Well, I think they will join with India. In-fact they may say----- 'lol, we are waiting for this day since very long. Let's do it'.

What say?

Indeed in this situation they will be informed but there presence will be in UN than in actual ground..

We dont need US presence as militaraly close to Indian Borders..

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Though the western Pakisthan along Astan is there operational field, If there is no PA, they can conduct there ops without any problems..

 

[ashicjose]

ashic

you do not read others post... Islamic bombs are out of the subject. It has been said that assume Pakistan has no bombs.. then tell me why should govt attack Pakistan and what should be the objectives of IA ?

Simple as that..

Personally I don't like wars because many losing their dear ones and it sheds innocent blood .Unless there is no terror attacks we don't need to attack anyone.Before you planing to kick someone's ass better you take care your own from possible attacks.
Why you are saying "assume pak has no bombs" They have nukes and they will use it against us today or tomorrow directly or indirectly, if they lose their face ,considering that we must do our planning.

 

[Bhadra]

Pakistan is troubling India with state (ARMY and ISI) sponsored terrorism. That in turn is effecting India in national consolidation, achieving communal harmony, managing its internal political contradictions, diversion of large amounts for internal security and sapping morale of the nation and people. India's national interests is to ensure growth and progress for its people and become the second largest economy of the world.

Tell me all of you, India should attack Pakistan to Gain Political aim of:

# Teach her a lesson (punishement for terrorism) (so many lessons have gone waste) (reduce interference).

# To break Pakistan into pieces. (reduce military capacity, threat potential and increase Indian retaliation capacity).

# To Bring in democracy and civilian rule in Pakistan (to reduce influence of Army and ISI).

# To call Pakistani nuclear bluff and de denuclearise Pakistan.

# To gain access to Afghanistan and Central Asia and deny Karakoram Highway.

# To merge Pakistan with India as a federation (disband their Army and their economy and Foreign Policy controlled by India).

# To Capture POK and Northern territory being ours.


Could there be some more political aims and objectives?

 

[Yusuf]

Tell me all of you, India should attack Pakistan to Gain Political aim of:

# Teach her a lesson (punishement for terrorism) (so many lessons have gone waste) (reduce interference).

We don't have to teach any lesson. They are the "dogs tail". We want to finish them off as a nation as it is defined today.

# To break Pakistan into pieces. (reduce military capacity, threat potential and increase Indian retaliation capacity).

Exactly what is required.

# To Bring in democracy and civilian rule in Pakistan (to reduce influence of Army and ISI).

Of what is left of Pakistan, I think PA/ISI would cease to exist if point two above happens.

# To call Pakistani nuclear bluff and de denuclearise Pakistan.

It will be part of the plan when we decide to go for war. Their doctrine calls for use of nukes if their territorial integrity is at stake.

# To gain access to Afghanistan and Central Asia and deny Karakoram Highway.

An important strategic objective.

# To merge Pakistan with India as a federation (disband their Army and their economy and Foreign Policy controlled by India).

Nah. A fragmented and independent states with good relations with india is desirable. Punjab is the trouble state/country.

# To Capture POK and Northern territory being ours.

Yes it's a major objective.


Could there be some more political aims and objectives?
Pretty much it.

 

[rock127]

Tell me all of you, India should attack Pakistan to Gain Political aim of:

# Teach her a lesson (punishement for terrorism) (so many lessons have gone waste) (reduce interference).

We don't have to teach any lesson. They are the "dogs tail". We want to finish them off as a nation as it is defined today.

# To break Pakistan into pieces. (reduce military capacity, threat potential and increase Indian retaliation capacity).

Exactly what is required.

# To Bring in democracy and civilian rule in Pakistan (to reduce influence of Army and ISI).

Of what is left of Pakistan, I think PA/ISI would cease to exist if point two above happens.

# To call Pakistani nuclear bluff and de denuclearise Pakistan.

It will be part of the plan when we decide to go for war. Their doctrine calls for use of nukes if their territorial integrity is at stake.

# To gain access to Afghanistan and Central Asia and deny Karakoram Highway.

An important strategic objective.

# To merge Pakistan with India as a federation (disband their Army and their economy and Foreign Policy controlled by India).

Nah. A fragmented and independent states with good relations with india is desirable. Punjab is the trouble state/country.

# To Capture POK and Northern territory being ours.

Yes it's a major objective.


Could there be some more political aims and objectives?
Pretty much it.

NO. Reasons already explained.

 

[Yusuf]

NO. Reasons already explained.

You are entitled to your opinion. The points above are a very strong case for India to protect itself. It's te only solution. There are more than one threads here on the break up of Pakistan and its usefulness for india.

 

[Bhadra]

NO. Reasons already explained.

Which reason do you prefer or which is the greatest aim?? Every thing can not be achieved in one shot !

 

[Yusuf]

Which reason do you prefer or which is the greatest aim??

It's more like waiting for them to disintegrate and in the meanwhile keep suffering at their hands.

PA/ISI will take care of any separatists like they are doing in Balochistan and Sindh. On their own they will not achieve much. In the event of an l out war, these groups will act as force multipliers.

 

[rock127]

Which reason do you prefer or which is the greatest aim?? Every thing can not be achieved in one shot !

It's more like waiting for them to disintegrate and in the meanwhile keep suffering at their hands.

PA/ISI will take care of any separatists like they are doing in Balochistan and Sindh. On their own they will not achieve much. In the event of an l out war, these groups will act as force multipliers.

Look at our pathetic gutless Leaders and current Military inventory(AF primarily).

 

[Bhadra]

It's more like waiting for them to disintegrate and in the meanwhile keep suffering at their hands.

PA/ISI will take care of any separatists like they are doing in Balochistan and Sindh. On their own they will not achieve much. In the event of an l out war, these groups will act as force multipliers.

Nothing should be left to natural consequences or to Allah a.
Even their breaking up has implications for India and India has to be ready for it.

For example when they are breaking up, Pakistan Army will attack India as a last ditch effort to stay together as Pakistan.

That is the first thing they do - stay together due to their hatred for India.

 

[Bhadra]

Look at our pathetic gutless Leaders and current Military inventory(AF primarily).

Take that every thing is favourable as we are discussing a hypothesis.