Discussion in 'Politics & Society' started by jus, Apr 29, 2015.
@Mad Indian @Rashna @Bangalorean @Free Karma &Rest
My opinion = No to DOWRY and No to ALIMONY if the girl is employed, from a sound family background, has support from her family, has a house to go back to in event of divorce and has no kids.
Now for the reality:
The law is very clear that a girl after marriage has to be provided a matrimonial home. In the event that the husband wants to divorce her, he has to provide her with a home to live in. If there are children involved then maintenance comes in to play. These are her rights under the law. Now there is a new trend that the court asks the woman to pay maintenance to the husband if she is the one earning and the husband has no job and there is a divorce situation. So the Alimony law could swing both ways.
The male lawyer in the video said something that I am inclined to agree with, more or less (with some caveats). He said, "lets talk about this after a while, when women really get equality in terms of employment, education, etc."
In other words, when society becomes such that all women also begin working to earn their living, we can do away with alimony law. But for now lets keep it. In India, most families have women as "housewives" - so the alimony law probably makes sense in most cases in India.
I would put an additional caveat. Alimony can be provided if the woman does not have a support source to feed her children or financially support herself. If she is a financially independent earning woman, there should be no alimony.
I would say, to achieve a truly gender-equal society, women need to earn their living. Otherwise we're stuck in a weird situation in the middle.
So if the husband is jobless, will the wife pay him alimony?
And true 50% WORK SHARE OF WOMEN is impossible, until women engage in pregnancies.
And what kind of equality are you talking about wrt genders - equality of outcome or equality of opportunity?
So let me get this straight . If I am married to a earning girl and have no job at the time of divorce , then I am entitled to alimony . Sounds better deal than re-gharwapsi .
Actually courts have ruled in the past that the wife needs to pay alimony to the husband if the husband is jobless and the wife is earning.
True 50% work share of women is indeed possible, even accounting for pregnancy. The concept of matrimony leave exists for this purpose, and in professions where women can work as easily as men (such as medicine, software, etc.) there can be true 50% work share of women. It is acceptable to give a woman a form of "reservation" during the maternity period, by paying her full salary for those 1-2 critical months. This "reservation" is acceptable because the condition of pregnancy is imposed by nature. Also, if the woman wants to extend her maternity period she can be given a sabbatical (at no cost to the company) for that extended period. Such things already happen. Of course, there are some professions which require only males (such as the hefty men who deliver your gas cylinder lifting it on their shoulders) - such professions are getting lesser and lesser as society modernizes.
So yeah, true 50% women's participation is possible. I am of course talking about equality of opportunity, which will hopefully result in equality of outcome. The problem is more with a mindset. Many women are happy with a "housewife" role and many men are happy with a "housewife" at home. That is why I think, as I mentioned earlier, my community's practice is the best way forward for a truly empowered and gender-equal society. No dowry, but mandatory working educated women. A woman who is not educated or does not earn her living will have a hell of a time finding a groom within the community. We are just not interested. This pushes women to compete in the job marketplace with men and results in true equality.
There is no truly Gender-equal country in the world nor in the future.In modern world Women can't compete with men.Period.
Ex: Sports .... 99% Income come from men
Army/defense forces.... 99% are men
Drivers/factory workers..... 90%+ are men
Movies..... 90%+ male domination
Almost every field except Fashion,Medicine (may be another 3 or 4) women can't compete with men.Through quota system and/or women empowerment govt bringing women in front but nature decides otherwise.In this highly competitive world Men will take over 80% jobs naturally and easily.
PS: I'm not male chauvinist pig just some facts,and I really want to know how women will achieve equality in 21st century
The biggest job women do is to further the family line. Without that there will be no men doing all these things u mention below. That is also one reason why women take sabbaticals from work. Factually women may not be suited for some of the professions mentioned below, which is ok. The world won't end if these professions don't exist but the world will end if women stop giving birth. So mcp or not you can never take the place of a woman in the most important job that nature has bestowed up on them.
So indirectly ur saying women good for family &birth.So they must sit in home do 'HOME MAKER',why they want reservation&jobs then
This is what all male chauvinistic Patriarchal system followed for 1000000000 yrs
Not exactly. Women these days take sabbaticals for taking care of their kids and go back to work. Many companies now offer flexi working options including work from home. You took the male chauvinist view of it and became so happy
What i was pointing out to you is that no matter WHAT professions men occupy they can never do the one job that a woman can do. Which is to bear children. And this is crucial to the survival of humanity. The 4 male dominated jobs u mentioned are not required for survival.
What I feel is, many of these jobs can actually employ women as days progress and with increasing modernity. Lets take it one by one:
1. Sports: there are women-only sports, and when these become as popular as men-only sports, the income generated will be equal. Tennis is an example.
2. Army: as mankind progresses warfare will rely more on technology and less on brute force. The frontline infantry soldiers will be mostly men for a long time to come, but there is no natural barrier preventing women from sitting at a terminal and controlling pilotless drones or flying a transport helicopter or manning (oops - womaning) guard posts. It already happens with lot of women in BSF etc.
3. Drivers: why can these not be women? "Bad women driver" jokes aside, there is no reason women cannot be drivers. It is a societal mental block which prevents it. Even so, we hear of women taxi drivers or women auto drivers occasionally.
4. Factory workers: Again, why can women not be employed in skilled jobs? Hell, on construction sites even women lift cement blocks and transport wooden plywood sheets on their heads. What prevents a woman from being an electrician or carpenter?
5. Movies: really didn't understand this. What are you saying - that women are not represented in film industry?
There are some professions which women just cannot do. For example, that man who comes to your house to deliver your gas cylinder, hefting it on his shoulders - that is something woman can never do. It is a constraint imposed by nature - women just don't have the physical strength. But then, as we get piped gas and more people use induction electric stoves, this male bastion will collapse too. Can @Rashna think of any other profession which women can never do, apart from this one?
None of the professions which you mentioned cannot be performed by women. As the world modernizes, skill and intellect becomes more important, and physical strength becomes less important. I don't see any reason why 50% women participation in workforce cannot be achieved. Women do not work as electricians and carpenters due to a societal mental block, not because they cannot (physically) - nature has not imposed any constraints which prevent women from working in these professions.
Darling what will happen tomorrow "Artificial womb" comes into picture.What's ur suggestion then,just kill all women 'coz they r less-worth.
This is what @Mad Indian said many times.
Anyway what i mean to say is there is no patriarchy/male chauvinistic bla bla bla only NATURAL ORDER which decided by nature.
You were asking about how women will attain gender equality vis a vis men. So i have suggested its not women but men who need to attain gender equality. Because none of the jobs u mentioned where men are dominant are required for survival. When that comes we can worry about artificial womb. It will be great for women because it will help them to get rid of other discomfort they go through for major part of their life just because they have to give birth some day.
All of you men who think women are worthless should be left to die on an island. Mad Indian is mad and further to that he is now cursed so he gets no chance to atone his sins. lol. no karmic balancing for him.
Women are not suited for heavily taxing work. And seriously i have no qualms about being feminine and doing what i can do better. As long as the job doesn't need brute strength there is no job a woman can't do. And that is being proven by women every day. But i just pointed out one thing a woman can do which a man can't and take that one thing away and you have no homosapiens! That's woman power for you!
@Bangalorean Don't be silly 99% Indian don't know even 1 women cricketer name like Brazilians dont' know female foot baller name.AFA Tennis thanks to balls&Skirts women game got views else men is always above par.
Army:Be practical,there is no place for women except medical assistance
Drivers/factory workers: Yes what's wrong in it, men work double &qlty work in same time.
Movies/Scientists many many fields women can't compete.I mean, just putting some facts u can google yourself.
Good nite guys,Women are men are equal for me but their roles/interests are different.That's it
LOL. The island trick worked i think. Gnite.
What women cricketer, Indians don't even know male hockey player names. Men do know about Sania Mirza and Sania Nehwal though. Its a question of sport popularity and women achievements, when they happen.
You have no idea about technical advancement of societies which places more emphasis on skills and intelligence rather than brute force. The way wars are fought, the way construction is done - everything will change radically with mechanization, automation, technology, etc.
You need to substantiate how a male driver works "double" in the same time. This doesn't even make sense. It is absolute pure bullshit. What are you even trying to say here?
And you have to explain your point about movies and scientists. Again a thoroughly idiotic point. Don't ask me to Google, you are just talking crap. Explain your points with logic if you can.
There are also jobs where there is absolute domination by women - nursing, MBBS(in India), Vetenary science for instance.
1. But you are talking about a single case. I am talking if the alimonies laws per se will be made gender neutral.
2. But what you are saying is actuallly discrimintion against men and patronising for women(Patriarchy?). You dont give leave to men for fathering a child. Empowered women should consider it an insult if they are given leave for getting pregnant. Any extra help to women for which there is no help to men should be seen as being patronising/patriarchal and should be evil and toxic ?
On a serious note, what you are talking about is actually govt intervention in private firms. Its bad for businesses specially the small ones
3.Also what if the wife is fully cpable of work but Chooses not to work and wants to be a housewife who lives in her husband's alimony? What should be dont then?
And none of you have actually addressed the actual question - why should dowry be illegal when alimony is not?
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