IDN TAKE: Why India Should Buy the F-35 Lightning II

[Bahamut]

As far as I know, F-35 does sport an AESA RADAR, so jamming that in itself would be bit difficult even in war. But then the fact would remain that what is the optimal range of the RADAR. If we trust the online sources, its an L band as well as X band radar. Now if its true, then yeah it could detect movement at 500kms, but it would not be able to distinguish it unless and until the missile is close enough for DAS. But here again you would have to consider the terrain from where the SAM would operate and the height at which the F-35 would be flying for the RADAR to work in its optimum configuration.

In present day scenario, everyone is opting for Network Centric Warfare capability to enhance there real time perception and to bring an end to the dependency on AWACS support. Right now, without a decent AWACS, even an 5th Gen fighter would be bit handicap in a war.

AESA radar have been jammed ,so it will not be a big problem to jam it but see F 35 cannot defeat missile kinetically.What if the requirement are for perfect radio silences and no communication ( perfect stealth ),so no radar on.See we will not fight 3 class air force but force that will be in equal or slightly less in technological terms and superior in number,so for the first week of war we will not be able to use network centric warfare.F 35 is designed to work only with network centric warfare .It does not fit our doctrain. It sensor are world class but the plane itself is poorly design.Unless and until it flight problem are solved ,I am not for F 35 .Buy 36 single seater and 4 trainer and see if the kinetic performance are OK and sensor work as advertise then by ,more.The PR in this fighter is extreme while performance is missing.

 

[Scarface]

AESA radar have been jammed ,so it will not be a big problem to jam it but see F 35 cannot defeat missile kinetically.What if the requirement are for perfect radio silences and no communication ( perfect stealth ),so no radar on.See we will not fight 3 class air force but force that will be in equal or slightly less in technological terms and superior in number,so for the first week of war we will not be able to use network centric warfare.F 35 is designed to work only with network centric warfare .It does not fit our doctrain. It sensor are world class but the plane itself is poorly design.Unless and until it flight problem are solved ,I am not for F 35 .Buy 36 single seater and 4 trainer and see if the kinetic performance are OK and sensor work as advertise then by ,more.The PR in this fighter is extreme while performance is missing.

No aircraft can defeat missiles kinematically without support from counter-measures and sufficient warning.Missiles can go Mach 4,turn at 30Gs ,have better T/W ratio,better instantaneous turn rates than even the most super maneuverable aircraft.


Jamming AESA is possible, but hard as has already been said.If radio silence is required then the AESAs can function in LPI mode to avoid being detected.
It will be a very big problem to Jam AESAs.

 

[jaci_zenfone2]

No aircraft can defeat missiles kinematically without support from counter-measures and sufficient warning.Missiles can go Mach 4,turn at 30Gs ,have better T/W ratio,better instantaneous turn rates than even the most super maneuverable aircraft.


Jamming AESA is possible, but hard as has already been said.If radio silence is required then the AESAs can function in LPI mode to avoid being detected.
It will be a very big problem to Jam AESAs.

What do you think about DRFM Jammers?

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[jaci_zenfone2]

Qutoe from a article:-
DRFM technology has several features. First, it provides coherent time delay of RF signals in applications like radar and electronic warfare. It also produces coherent deception jamming to a radar system by replaying a captured radar pulse with a small delay, which makes the target appear to move.

DRFM also can modulate captured pulse data in amplitude, frequency, and phase to provide other affects. A Doppler shift correlates range and range rate trackers in the radar. DRFM also can replay captured radar pulses many times to fool the radar into perceiving many targets.

Small packages, fast response, and large volumes of low-latency compute power define modern DRFM evolution, Mercury officials say. The company's latest DRFM technology produces modules as thin as 0.44 inches, and capitalizes on direct digital synthesizer (DDS) local oscillator (LO) technology.

DDS delivers sub-microsecond tuning speeds over a wide bandwidth, while advanced circuit design and simulation helps reduce spurious, inter-module and phase noise.





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[jaci_zenfone2]

Indeed I noted the fact that the Rafale is far more fuel efficient than the F-35.If our negotiators are going to the table with unreasonable ToT demands then the fault lies with them,not the sellers.


The wiki statistics about range and combat radius are on condition of 3 external drop tanks,it's insane to think that any Fighter aircraft can have a combat radius of 1850km on only 4.7 tons of fuel.Even the F-15 Strike Eagle has to rely on it's conformal tanks to reach such a combat radius.

Rafale's combat radius without CFTs/drop tanks is 925km

http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/rafale.htm.

Stealth aircraft have far more advantage as compared to conventional aircraft when conducting SEAD or attacking defended areas like Command and Control centers,simply because of the fact that just like any other radar, it will be more difficult to detect the LO aircraft compared to the non-LO one, just because pilot skill is a factor doesn't mean we should use it to compensate for anything. Our pilots should get the best aircraft conditions allow.


The delay in firing the AAM isn't an issue in BVR engagements, ECM has it's limits and counters, BVRAAMs have home on jam and speculating on ECM capabilities is fruitless because those capabilities are kept classified, we do not know if ECM will be able to detect being tracked from more than 150km , I personally don't think so and you may have your own views but unless someone declassifies ECM capabilities we can't say for sure.


If absolutely necessary the F-35 can mount AAMs on It's external rails or wingtips (?),it will still be less observable on Radar than Rafale with external loads.

I am yet to see a role Rafale can do better than the F-35, longer range on internal fuel is ideal for strike role,can conduct SEAD more reliably, Air Superiority can be disputed because F-35 may or may not be better for WVR ,we will have to wait for declassification of stats like Rate of Climb and stuff but BVR the F-35 enjoys an advantage.

Home on jam is useless on DRFM Jammers.[emoji2]

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[Scarface]

What do you think about DRFM Jammers?

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Qutoe from a article:-
DRFM technology has several features. First, it provides coherent time delay of RF signals in applications like radar and electronic warfare. It also produces coherent deception jamming to a radar system by replaying a captured radar pulse with a small delay, which makes the target appear to move.

DRFM also can modulate captured pulse data in amplitude, frequency, and phase to provide other affects. A Doppler shift correlates range and range rate trackers in the radar. DRFM also can replay captured radar pulses many times to fool the radar into perceiving many targets.

Small packages, fast response, and large volumes of low-latency compute power define modern DRFM evolution, Mercury officials say. The company's latest DRFM technology produces modules as thin as 0.44 inches, and capitalizes on direct digital synthesizer (DDS) local oscillator (LO) technology.

DDS delivers sub-microsecond tuning speeds over a wide bandwidth, while advanced circuit design and simulation helps reduce spurious, inter-module and phase noise.





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Home on jam is useless on DRFM Jammers.[emoji2]

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DFRM jammers aren't very effective against any AESA radar.

Mainly because DFRMs receive and remember the frequency of the radar emissions and then replicate those to create false receives.

Modern AESA radar have LPI which mixes the original frequency with many others making it difficult for DFRM to get memorize the correct frequency.

In a fully active Radar situation , most modern radars including PESAs which are old tech can carry out frequency hopping

AESAs can also spread it's frequencies over a very wide band , again making it difficult for DFRM to memorize and replicate all those frequencies

As a matter of fact F-15s equipped with DFRM jamming pods were unable to jam the F-22s AESA radar during Red Flag combat exercise

Here's what Air Marshall Brown had to say about the F-35 and about F-15s equipped with DFRM jamming pods vs F-22s AESA


"To me that is key: it is not only stealth; it is the combination of the EOS and the radar to be able to build a comprehensive picture. In that engagement I talked about at Nellis, in Red Flag, the ability to be in a cockpit with a God's-eye view of what is going on in the world was such an advantage over a fourth-generation fighter—and arguably one of the best fourth-generation fighters in existence, the F15. But even with a DRFM jamming pod, we still had no chance in those particular engagements"

This was from a Parliamentary report in Australia, link below

http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;query=Id:"committees%2Fcommjnt%2Ffb49a6a2-5080-4c72-a379-e4fd10cc710a%2F0002"

 

[jaci_zenfone2]

DFRM jammers aren't very effective against any AESA radar.

Mainly because DFRMs receive and remember the frequency of the radar emissions and then replicate those to create false receives.

Modern AESA radar have LPI which mixes the original frequency with many others making it difficult for DFRM to get memorize the correct frequency.

In a fully active Radar situation , most modern radars including PESAs which are old tech can carry out frequency hopping

AESAs can also spread it's frequencies over a very wide band , again making it difficult for DFRM to memorize and replicate all those frequencies

As a matter of fact F-15s equipped with DFRM jamming pods were unable to jam the F-22s AESA radar during Red Flag combat exercise

Here's what Air Marshall Brown had to say about the F-35 and about F-15s equipped with DFRM jamming pods vs F-22s AESA


"To me that is key: it is not only stealth; it is the combination of the EOS and the radar to be able to build a comprehensive picture. In that engagement I talked about at Nellis, in Red Flag, the ability to be in a cockpit with a God's-eye view of what is going on in the world was such an advantage over a fourth-generation fighter—and arguably one of the best fourth-generation fighters in existence, the F15. But even with a DRFM jamming pod, we still had no chance in those particular engagements"

This was from a Parliamentary report in Australia, link below

http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;query=Id:"committees%2Fcommjnt%2Ffb49a6a2-5080-4c72-a379-e4fd10cc710a%2F0002"

So the f15s equipped with DRFM Jammers could not jam the aesa radar but than it makes me to wonder why America is doing this:-

Maybe they are buying something with millions of dollars which they say cant do its job[emoji1]

Navy and Air Force choose DRFM jammers from Mercury Systems to help spoof enemy radar:-http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/2014/06/mercury-drfm-jammer.html

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[jaci_zenfone2]

They dont even have to jam the F35s radar,they will just blind the AMRAAM'S on board active seeker(Which is much less powerful than APG81) and make the biggest American dream of BVR a nightmare.

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[jaci_zenfone2]

Hey Lockheed Martin just treated steath as an on/off switch in a 2008 statement:-Lockheed Martin added that:

“…The Air Force’s standard air-to-air engagement analysis model, also used by allied air forces to assess air-combat performance, pitted the 5th generation F-35 against all advanced 4th generation fighters in a variety of simulated scenarios… In all F-35 Program Office and U.S. Air Force air-to-air combat effectiveness analysis to date, the F-35 enjoys a significant Combat Loss Exchange Ratio advantage over the current and future air-to-air threats, to include Sukhois… (In stealth combat configuration), the F-35 aerodynamically outperforms all other combat-configured 4th generation aircraft



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[jaci_zenfone2]

It has already been proved possible to jam the F-22's radar using DRFM, and that was done in 2009 with the avionics of the F-35 in testflight in a 737.

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[Scarface]

So the f15s equipped with DRFM Jammers could not jam the aesa radar but than it makes me to wonder why America is doing this:-

Maybe they are buying something with millions of dollars which they say cant do its job[emoji1]

Navy and Air Force choose DRFM jammers from Mercury Systems to help spoof enemy radar:-http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/2014/06/mercury-drfm-jammer.html

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Because DFRM can jam other Radar than AESA.
Conventional PESAs,ground based Radars, etc.

They dont even have to jam the F35s radar,they will just blind the AMRAAM'S on board active seeker(Which is much less powerful than APG81) and make the biggest American dream of BVR a nightmare.

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Not as easy as it sounds. The F-35s AESA if not jammed can guide the AIM-120s upto the terminal phase before switching to Active Radar Homing,not to mention the fact that AMRAAMs have ECCM capabilities of their own (Electronic Counter-Countermeasures) and finally F-35 can just ripple fire all it's 4/6 AMRAAMs if necessary to overcome the jammer.

Hey Lockheed Martin just treated steath as an on/off switch in a 2008 statement:-Lockheed Martin added that:

“…The Air Force’s standard air-to-air engagement analysis model, also used by allied air forces to assess air-combat performance, pitted the 5th generation F-35 against all advanced 4th generation fighters in a variety of simulated scenarios… In all F-35 Program Office and U.S. Air Force air-to-air combat effectiveness analysis to date, the F-35 enjoys a significant Combat Loss Exchange Ratio advantage over the current and future air-to-air threats, to include Sukhois… (In stealth combat configuration), the F-35 aerodynamically outperforms all other combat-configured 4th generation aircraft



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No, they didn't. If they implied F-35 loses all it's Stealth while carrying external stores , then that would be the case.Here they're just talking about the stealthiest possible configuration for the F-35.

It has already been proved possible to jam the F-22's radar using DRFM, and that was done in 2009 with the avionics of the F-35 in testflight in a 737.

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And it has been proven that DRFM can not jam the F-22 radar during the Red Flag exercise by using actual F-22s and actual F-15s with actual DRFM jamming pods.

 

[Hari Sud]

Stop having dreams of F35 for India or all those who are supporting the idea should start paying higher taxes to fund the program. Not only that knowing IAF, they will drop one or two to the ground every year that will require extra taxes on all the sponsores of the idea.

 

[pmaitra]

As far as IRST detecting flankers 400 km away is concerned ,nobody made such a claim.

Not true.

It was claimed that F-35 can detect Flanker at 400 km, and you defended that by saying that DAS can do that without any cue from the radar. Then I asked how DAS works, and you brought in IRST and said DAS functions the same way as IRST.

Please read the thread, and before you tell me you have read the thread, please do actually read the thread.

 

[pmaitra]

I have just have a idea ,we can make a system that copies the IR activity of a SAM launch and place with our SAM in order of 20-30 system for each launcher, so if we have jammed the F 35 radar ,leaving only DAS ,the DAS will be unable to find the actual SAM and with 20 "missile" coming at it ,it will give the wrong info to pilot resulting in wrong move.Is this possible.

If I am getting you right, you are suggesting a decoy. That certainly is possible, however, is that feasible?

Optical sensors have the advantage of light rays being very quick. The downside is that there is the possibility of thermoclines, refraction, and other types of noise. For it to work at long distances, it has to have assistance from radar.

The Northrop-Grumman site does not specify how far the target was that was detected.

 

[jaci_zenfone2]

People first says steath aircraft is invisible to radar than it says LPI Radar can not be jammed.
Just like TVC is useless on fighters but many years later we see tvc incorporated in the most capable combat aircraft ever produced.Just like when germans get their hands on Russian archer they came to know their ass will get kicked by it only than they created IRIS-T,ASRAAM,AIM-9X.Oh at last we don't need guns on our aircraft because we will kill them on BVR because in tests we have 70-80% kill probability but later their brains just got drilled by enemy guns.

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[Scarface]

Not true.

It was claimed that F-35 can detect Flanker at 400 km, and you defended that by saying that DAS can do that without any cue from the radar. Then I asked how DAS works, and you brought in IRST and said DAS functions the same way as IRST.

Please read the thread, and before you tell me you have read the thread, please do actually read the thread.

Did you actually read the post you linked me to ?

"IF the Su-35 can detect the F-35 at 80 km in IRST, DAS on the F-35 should be able to detect anything the size of the Flanker over 200km away, considering it can spot rocket launchesat 1200km away. Sensors wise F-35 has an edge any day. In a one on one both sides have their own advanatge and the better pilot will kill the other. F-35 in EU will recieve eventually Meteor, in the US CUDA and in Israel I-DERBY-ER"

This is what the post says.


You're the only one who misread the claims of @Immanuel and arbitrarily came up with the number.

Every post that I made replying to you has been about proving that DAS can track rockets at 1,200km instead of trying to prove the claim that an F-35 DAS can see a flanker 400 km away which no one made

 

[pmaitra]

Did you actually read the post you linked me to ?

I read posts before responding. I recommend you do as well.

You're the only one who misread the claims of @Immanuel and arbitrarily came up with the number.

The posts are out there for everyone to see. I did not come up with any number, arbitrary or otherwise.

Every post that I made replying to you has been about proving that DAS can track rockets at 1,200km instead of trying to prove the claim that an F-35 DAS can see a flanker 400 km away which no one made

Nope. Read your own posts again.

 

[Scarface]

I read posts before responding. I recommend you do as well.

The posts are out there for everyone to see. I did not come up with any number, arbitrary or otherwise.

Nope. Read your own posts again.

Just quote me or any pro F-35 person in this thread claiming that the F-35 can detect a flanker 400km away.

 

[pmaitra]

Just quote me or any pro F-35 person in this thread claiming that the F-35 can detect a flanker 400km away.

Whether someone is a pro or not is irrelevant. Someone claimed F-35 can detect a Flanker and you defended that. Go back and read the posts. I already gave some links. Can't spoonfeed you.

 

[Scarface]

Whether someone is a pro or not is irrelevant. Someone claimed F-35 can detect a Flanker and you defended that. Go back and read the posts. I already gave some links. Can't spoonfeed you.

So we're shifting the goalposts now ?
What happened to the "400km" number.

Fine ,quote someone regardless of their views on F-35 who claimed 400km detection range against Flankers.

Can't spoonfeed you.

Nice excuse to back out.