IDN TAKE: Why India Should Buy the F-35 Lightning II

VOCvangoens

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The armed forces of the great powers, in relation to the other great powers, behave in very much the same fashion as their nuclear arsenals; as a deterrent and as bargaining chips in the great geopolitical board game. An imbalance in the armed forces of the powers in a given region gives the power whom the imbalance favours greater diplomatic and strategic force. Take for example China's increasing brashness in the assertion of its power in its perceived strategic interests in the South China Sea. Thus China's navy has the confidence to confront Indo-Vietnamese oil exploration missions in the South China Sea; something they wouldn't have attempted against Western powers in the early twentieth century given their utter humiliation during the Opium Wars.

China's naval build-up has been paralleled by the accelerating modernisation of its air force; of which there are no better symbols than the J20 and J31 stealth aircraft. Given India's dithering and delay, which is compounding the problem of the upcoming retirement of its elderly squadrons of Mig21s, resulting in a net depletion of forces and adversely tipping the balance in the favour of China. The consequences would be detrimental to India's strategic, national, and economic interests. Thus, India's acquisition of stealth fighters must be viewed ultimately from a geopolitical strategic perspective in addition to the tactical perspective; the former being partly a function of the latter.

As an almost failed state, I don't regard Pakistan as much of a conventional threat, its main threat is from terrorism, its nuclear weapons and as a poodle of China. Therefore, I tend to view Pakistan's conventional threat as an extension of the Chinese threat.
I'm no expert but among the advantages of the F35 Lightning II would presumably include reliability-particularly with regard to the engines. I'm not sure if this is true or not but there is a view that Russian jets aren't designed to be pushed to their limits on a regular basis, as is the tendency of the IAF, and this is cited as the cause of many crashes of the SU30 MKI and other Russian jets. It may be true that Russian jets may look good on paper but when it comes to war, they don't come up to scratch. Also, there is the possibility of the integration of the METEOR with the F35 and it doesn't seem as though the Russians will have a ramjer air-to-air missile available anytime soon.

Besides the possible tactical advantages, if one looks at India's only interest as being its security viz China, then the F35 indeed appears to be beneficial. The capabilities gained from the mere possession of a capable Western stealth fighter alone should increase an imaginary deterrence coefficient. Although, one could argue that the performance characteristics of the F35 very much overlap with that of the HAL AMCA, they're not air superiority fighters, and the former could jeopardise the latter.

However, the symbolic value of the purchase is greater as it would signify India's membership of the neo-SEATO bloc of the USA, Australia, Japan and South Korea as only the USA's NATO and other long-standing allies, such as Japan, Israel and Australia, are getting the F35. I imagine that a strong bloc such as this would mollify Chinese geopolitical ambitions and maintain the balance of power in Asia.

But to become effectively part of such a bloc would by definition remove India's long-cherished non-aligned status and could very much subordinate it to Western policies in international affairs. For example, given the historical good relations India has enjoyed with Russia, the West could hypothetically use its influence to further isolate Russia by twisting India's arm. Moreover the West oppose Eurasian economic integration, something which would benefit India enormously in the long run, as it would substantially reduce their influence in the world.

It's also important not to forget that despite the values of freedom, democracy, liberalism and plurality that the United States shares with India, this wasn't enough to prevent the unholy alliance which it had with Pakistan (Phuckistan or Porkistan to some of our Indian friends). It has been only since the War On Terror, and the blowback from the decades in which the Pakistanis/Phuckistanis/Porkistanis have supported Islamic terrorists, which could be regarded as a stab in back for the USA, and the continuing emergence of India as a global economic force to be reckoned with, sublimely withstanding America's sanctions, that the Americans have finally realised that their interests ultimately lie in supporting India in distinction to the almost failed terrorist hellhole of Phuckistan.

All Russia wants and has ever wanted is money, money, money! The Russians want a deal which will maintain India as a customer and cash cow for decades to come; given sales for spares and upgrades.

Yes, the Russian have made a deal to sell SU35s to China and possibly to Pakistan. Russia has in the past sold more advanced kit to India than to China, the SU30 MKI is more advanced and capable than the MKK, and these could be viewed merely as a means of gaining bargaining power to force India to purchase the PAK FA/FGFA. I believe that the mooted deal with Pakistan would collapse once the PAK FA deal has been categorically completed.

There is a problem that Russia is cozying up to China given the economic woes that Western sanctions have wrought upon it. Resultant Chinese influence could be used to compromise India's military; i.e. delaying the sale or delivery of spares, etc. As about 75% of India's present fighter and ground attack aircraft are from Russia, it doesn't seem particularly wise to push Russia further towards China. India is and has been a much more reliable customer than China, always keen to reverse-engineer Russian kit.

Ultimately, the best thing for India is to develop its own advanced military-industrial complex so that it can design and manufacture the best stealth fighters on its own and thus be truly independent. Until then she has to make a fine calculation involving all known factors and variables, and known unknowns and unknown knowns, to come to a decision as to which aircraft will benefit her the most in the long-run.
 

Scarface

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Nope. The Northrop-Grumman site says just the opposite. The radar was used along with DAS.
This one ?
http://www.northropgrumman.com/capabilities/anaaq37f35/pages/default.aspx

Nowhere does it say DAS and AESA did the detection together, in fact

"The DAS autonomously detected all five rockets, launched in rapid succession, and tracked them from initial launch well past the second stage burnout."

According to the Northrop Grumman website DAS did the detection autonomously as does my source.
 

pmaitra

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This one ?
http://www.northropgrumman.com/capabilities/anaaq37f35/pages/default.aspx

Nowhere does it say DAS and AESA did the detection together, in fact

"The DAS autonomously detected all five rockets, launched in rapid succession, and tracked them from initial launch well past the second stage burnout."

According to the Northrop Grumman website DAS did the detection autonomously as does my source.
http://www.northropgrumman.com/capabilities/anaaq37f35/pages/default.aspx

upload_2016-1-8_2-10-32.png
 

Scarface

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pmaitra

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Yes we're on the same page.
I've quoted from that page


"The DAS autonomously detected all five rockets, launched in rapid succession, and tracked them from initial launch well past the second stage burnout."

I don't know how to draw the conclusion that APG-81 aided DAS in doing so.
I see they are using the word "and" between the two words: DAS, APG-81.

Working autonomously is not the same thing as working independently.

How does the DAS function? Assuming it is an optical instrument, how does it identify a missile 1200 km away or a Flanker 400 km away without the help of a radar? Identification is necessary step for detection and tracking.
 

Scarface

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I see they are using the word "and" between the two words: DAS, APG-81.

Working autonomously is not the same thing as working independently.

How does the DAS function? Assuming it is an optical instrument, how does it identify a missile 1200 km away or a Flanker 400 km away without the help of a radar? Identification is necessary step for detection and tracking.
The same way IRSTs detect and track targets, it's one of DAS' capabilities


The word "and" doesn't necessarily imply a co-operation between the two.

It could also be interpreted as the DAS can track rockets and the APG-81 can too.
 

pmaitra

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The same way IRSTs detect and track targets, it's one of DAS' capabilities


The word "and" doesn't necessarily imply a co-operation between the two.

It could also be interpreted as the DAS can track rockets and the APG-81 can too.
How does IRST detect and track targets?

DAS uses IR signals. APG-81 uses radio signals. A combination of IR and radio signals are used for everything.

Take away APG-81 form the F-35, and I am pretty sure it won't be able to detect, let alone track, a Flanker 400 km away or a rocket launch 1200 km away.

Check the video below and see that DAS and APG-81 work together. The radar is used to ID the target.
 

Scarface

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How does IRST detect and track targets?

DAS uses IR signals. APG-81 uses radio signals. A combination of IR and radio signals are used for everything.

Take away APG-81 form the F-35, and I am pretty sure it won't be able to detect, let alone track, a Flanker 400 km away or a rocket launch 1200 km away.

Check the video below and see that DAS and APG-81 work together. The radar is used to ID the target.
IRST does not use radio signals for detection,neither will DAS.

The video you linked me to also mentions the fact that EOTS can be used for identifying and tracking the target which is an IRST system and an extension of DAS.
 

pmaitra

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IRST does not use radio signals for detection,neither will DAS.

The video you linked me to also mentions the fact that EOTS can be used for identifying and tracking the target which is an IRST system and an extension of DAS.
How does IRST detect and track targets?
_______________________________________________
 

Scarface

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_______________________________________________
What ?
Are you asking me how does IRST work ?

The IRST uses a thermographic camera(s) to detect and track IR signatures of Aircraft/Missiles/Ground targets without emitting electromagnetic radiation.
 

Bahamut

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How does IRST detect and track targets?

DAS uses IR signals. APG-81 uses radio signals. A combination of IR and radio signals are used for everything.

Take away APG-81 form the F-35, and I am pretty sure it won't be able to detect, let alone track, a Flanker 400 km away or a rocket launch 1200 km away.

Check the video below and see that DAS and APG-81 work together. The radar is used to ID the target.
I have just have a idea ,we can make a system that copies the IR activity of a SAM launch and place with our SAM in order of 20-30 system for each launcher, so if we have jammed the F 35 radar ,leaving only DAS ,the DAS will be unable to find the actual SAM and with 20 "missile" coming at it ,it will give the wrong info to pilot resulting in wrong move.Is this possible.
 

pmaitra

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What ?
Are you asking me how does IRST work ?

The IRST uses a thermographic camera(s) to detect and track IR signatures of Aircraft/Missiles/Ground targets without emitting electromagnetic radiation.
IR signature? Can you please share an example of IR signature of a missile launched 1200 km away or a Flanker sized airplane 400 km away?

I really do not believe this DAS can perform target detection anywhere beyond a few hundred km without being assisted by radar.

Not trying to have a pop. I have implemented a few things with FLIR data-set. I can see a lot of ambitious claims being made about F-35, but this is unsurprising, since F-35 right from the beginning has been a lot of PR exercise, and not much else.
 

pmaitra

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I have just have a idea ,we can make a system that copies the IR activity of a SAM launch and place with our SAM in order of 20-30 system for each launcher, so if we have jammed the F 35 radar ,leaving only DAS ,the DAS will be unable to find the actual SAM and with 20 "missile" coming at it ,it will give the wrong info to pilot resulting in wrong move.Is this possible.
Will discuss more tomorrow. In the mean while, please have a look: http://www.vislab.ucr.edu/PUBLICATIONS/pubs/Conference-Gov/1996/Recognitionofarticulated96.pdf
 

Bahamut

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IR signature? Can you please share an example of IR signature of a missile launched 1200 km away or a Flanker sized airplane 400 km away?

I really do not believe this DAS can perform target detection anywhere beyond a few hundred km without being assisted by radar.

Not trying to have a pop. I have implemented a few things with FLIR data-set. I can see a lot of ambitious claims being made about F-35, but this is unsurprising, since F-35 right from the beginning has been a lot of PR exercise, and not much else.
They latest tech allow detection of jet at about 150 km but the theoretical limit is about 500 km but then computer has to do a lot of work separating the noise and will require a lot of cooling and power so for next 20 year it will at max reach 200-250 km.
They are talking about a ballistic missile with tech similar to north Korea,just a very very big rocket.
 

Chinmoy

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I have just have a idea ,we can make a system that copies the IR activity of a SAM launch and place with our SAM in order of 20-30 system for each launcher, so if we have jammed the F 35 radar ,leaving only DAS ,the DAS will be unable to find the actual SAM and with 20 "missile" coming at it ,it will give the wrong info to pilot resulting in wrong move.Is this possible.
Interesting thought. But in reality, DAS is an aperture system. Its just a set of six high end cameras to detect movement and then the rest is done by system computer, from alligning the rest of the six system on same direction and tracking and identifying the threat or friend. Now if you make a copy of any SAM launch, you can't fool it into playing as per you. It would only work on visual signals.

Another interesting thing about DAS which works in F-35 is of Distributed Antenna System. It could be possible for an F-35 to detect such a launch at 800miles or 1300 kms due to the fact that, its a complete network centric system. It could correlate with every individual ground based or AWACS radar to track and identify its target. Now whether this launch has been recorded by on board RADAR or DAS in autonomous mode or has it been done by syncing with other assets, is something to wait and look for.
 

Chinmoy

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Something by AusAirPower.............
I know you are not a great fan of AusAirPower, but as far as I am concerned, I am all ears to logic and reason. No matter where it comes from, if its something which is technically informative and logical, I am there to grab it. :)
 

Bahamut

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Interesting thought. But in reality, DAS is an aperture system. Its just a set of six high end cameras to detect movement and then the rest is done by system computer, from alligning the rest of the six system on same direction and tracking and identifying the threat or friend. Now if you make a copy of any SAM launch, you can't fool it into playing as per you. It would only work on visual signals.

Another interesting thing about DAS which works in F-35 is of Distributed Antenna System. It could be possible for an F-35 to detect such a launch at 800miles or 1300 kms due to the fact that, its a complete network centric system. It could correlate with every individual ground based or AWACS radar to track and identify its target. Now whether this launch has been recorded by on board RADAR or DAS in autonomous mode or has it been done by syncing with other assets, is something to wait and look for.
I counting the fact that all communication has been jammed (if we attack china due some reason they will jam our communication) or we have maintain radio silences limiting DAS to 200 km max.The same thing was tried with Radar and is successful but is rarely used . By the time the pilot release there is one launch he will lose time some 2 - 3 sec enough for missile to make a difference as F 35 is cannot out turn or out run it .
 

Chinmoy

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I counting the fact that all communication has been jammed (if we attack china due some reason they will jam our communication) or we have maintain radio silences limiting DAS to 200 km max.The same thing was tried with Radar and is successful but is rarely used . By the time the pilot release there is one launch he will lose time some 2 - 3 sec enough for missile to make a difference as F 35 is cannot out turn or out run it .
As far as I know, F-35 does sport an AESA RADAR, so jamming that in itself would be bit difficult even in war. But then the fact would remain that what is the optimal range of the RADAR. If we trust the online sources, its an L band as well as X band radar. Now if its true, then yeah it could detect movement at 500kms, but it would not be able to distinguish it unless and until the missile is close enough for DAS. But here again you would have to consider the terrain from where the SAM would operate and the height at which the F-35 would be flying for the RADAR to work in its optimum configuration.

In present day scenario, everyone is opting for Network Centric Warfare capability to enhance there real time perception and to bring an end to the dependency on AWACS support. Right now, without a decent AWACS, even an 5th Gen fighter would be bit handicap in a war.
 

Scarface

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IR signature? Can you please share an example of IR signature of a missile launched 1200 km away or a Flanker sized airplane 400 km away?

I really do not believe this DAS can perform target detection anywhere beyond a few hundred km without being assisted by radar.

Not trying to have a pop. I have implemented a few things with FLIR data-set. I can see a lot of ambitious claims being made about F-35, but this is unsurprising, since F-35 right from the beginning has been a lot of PR exercise, and not much else.

I can't, there is no simple unit of measurement of IR signature like there is RCS,but claim of detecting rockets at 1200km is not very revolutionary,as you know Temperature plays a great role in IR signatures and Missiles/Rockets run extremely hot, definitely hotter than an aircraft.

As far as IRST detecting flankers 400 km away is concerned ,nobody made such a claim.The post which started this discussion said about 200km and it's speculation too,it may be even lower,EOTS range is kept under very thick wraps.

And you are indeed correct when you said that DAS cannot detect targets beyond a few hundred kms tops but the targets being fighters.

But Ballistic missiles ? Those should be IR hotspots and I don't think it's a big deal to detect rockets 1,200km away.
 

Scarface

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I know you are not a great fan of AusAirPower, but as far as I am concerned, I am all ears to logic and reason. No matter where it comes from, if its something which is technically informative and logical, I am there to grab it. :)
Fair enough , Carlo Kopp certainly has the credentials for an aviation expert, I can't deny that ,it's just that his personal views sometimes get in middle of objectivity.
 

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