IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

[sesha_maruthi27]

Some people in DFI and also in the outside world are not able digest the fact that India has finally attained self reliance in Defence equipment production and trying to derail the moral of India by discouraging and also by giving wrong facts about indigenous products of DRDO and other Defence equipment design and manufacturing Industries and shame is that they are even saying that we have copied the technology of other hardware available in the market, this can be seen in the design of the new multi caliber rifle designed in India, it is said that the rifle is similar to the colt. SORRY, THIS KIND OF ATTITUDE OF UNDERESTIMATING INDIA AND THE WORK OF INDIAN SCIENTISTS IS NOT FAIR..........

 

[sob]

All i can add to this at this moment that HAL has not given any information to it's vendors for significant increase in quantities.

 

[A chauhan]

Literal interpretation says 14 sqdns. Lets wait for the official confirmation or otherwise.

 

[ersakthivel]

More Turbulence Likely for Air Force's Rafale Deal | idrw.org

There are fresh signs of trouble for the country's 'mother of all deals' to buy 126 French Rafale combat planes.
After Defence Minister A K Antony told a DefExpo press conference last week that there were complaints regarding the life cycle cost of the 126 medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) that the IAF is buying, he told Parliament on Monday that all of the MiG-21 and MiG-27 combat planes would be replaced by the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).
Antony told the Lok Sabha in written replies to questions that there were 14 combat squadrons of the IAF that use the two Russian-origin single-engine planes and these would be phased out over the next few years. These "will be replaced by the LCA". Antony's statement is a major setback for the MMRCA project for which Rafale has been chosen as the lowest bidding aircraft two years ago and the contract, said to be worth Rs 1 lakh crore, is yet to be signed.
The IAF had originally planned to equip the squadrons that fly the MiG-21s and MiG-27s with the plane chosen under the MMRCA procurment, which now obviously is the Rafale. Though Antony said the Rafale procurement is in the pipeline and that there was no rethink on it now, the trouble with its life-cycle cost calculation is likely to delay the signing of the contract, as he has already indicated that it was not possible within this fiscal. As the UPA's return to power at the Centre is not certain and hence, the new government may take a while to study the Rafale purchase before taking a decision.
However, as things stand today, the LCA has obtained its initial operational clearance in December 2013 and is readying to get its final operational clearance by the end of 2014.
Till now, the MoD only ordered two squadrons comprising 20 LCAs each -- one in the LCA in IOC configuration and another in FOC configuration -- making it a total of 40

There are significant file noting on this ,"life cycle cost " issue, which are potentially explosive if leaked in public domain.

Thats why shri Antony is very cautious on this deal, Sure he does not want to face the prospect of long walk to tihar jail, because ultimately it is he who will be held answerable for any probe into any alleged misdoings on this deal.

 

[ersakthivel]

Well a lot of english comprehension lessons are being given to us DFItes by very dignified all knowing technocrats,

Antony has been saying for eons that 14 squadrons of assortment of mig series of fighters will be replaced by tejas and tejas only.

this is not the first time that it is reported. It was reported on IOC-2 day itself. But many refused to read any meaning into it.

Today this has been given in writing by the MOD to parliament And still people won't believe it!!!!

Some heavy english comprehension lessons going on to dispute such a simple fact.

IAF has not yet given a word beyond six squadrons of tejas, reasons are not far to seek. They want RAFALE and not tejas,

But MOD has already made up its mind. It cant afford to bleed indian taxpayer with 20 plus billion 4.5 gen RAFALE that may at best give a twenty percent increase in range and load carrying specs only to IAF and nothing else but ballooning up keep and upgradation costs forever bleeding IAF budget.

And no one wants to go to jail ,in the sure to come future CBI investigations if the file noting on MMRCA winner's lifecycle cost assesments are leaked (sure they will be leaked once deal is announced), shrewd MOD top officials have already put the noting to safeguard themselves if any corruption investigation happens on a later date.

Thats what bharath karhanad also said,

 

[ladder]

Well a lot of english comprehension lessons are being given to us DFItes by very dignified all knowing technocrats,

Antony has been saying for eons that 14 squadrons of assortment of mig series of fighters will be replaced by tejas and tejas only.

this is not the first time that it is reported. It was reported on IOC-2 day itself. But many refused to read any meaning into it.

Today this has been given in writing by the MOD to parliament And still people won't believe it!!!!

Some heavy english comprehension lessons going on to dispute such a simple fact.

IAF has not yet given a word beyond six squadrons of tejas, reasons are not far to seek. They want RAFALE and not tejas,

But MOD has already made up its mind. It cant afford to bleed indian taxpayer with 20 plus billion 4.5 gen RAFALE that may at best give a twenty percent increase in range and load carrying specs only to IAF and nothing else but ballooning up keep and upgradation costs forever bleeding IAF budget.
Thats what bharath karhanad also said,

Current Su-30 squadron introduction are replacing which existing squadrons?

 

[Kyubi]

in order to cater to large order of tejas the goverment should allow the private sector to participate.this will result in 3-4 parallel production lines includind hal's so that we can induct quickly.

I've Had the same thought,, Tata Aerospace can take up production, its already batch producing sirkosky helicopters, with HAL's Tata can start a parallel production line there by augmenting the production rate..

 

[ersakthivel]

All i can add to this at this moment that HAL has not given any information to it's vendors for significant increase in quantities.

Since most of the increase(if at all!!!, because a lot depends on the MMRCA deal depending upon who will win the next elections ) will be in mk-2 version which is yet to be fully certified there won't be any info right now,

 

[ersakthivel]

Current Su-30 squadron introduction are replacing which existing squadrons?

A lot depends upon what happens in RAFALE deal, and whether IAF will stick with only existing squad numbers in immediate future,

Already it has been made clear many times by the top political leadership ,

that the country can't afford to spend huge forex amounts on very costly imported weapons ,

if there are no justifications for that.And the services were repeatedly told to focus on indigenous weapons ,

all due to slow economic growth and bleeding forex reserves.

And it will be tough for any one to release 60 billion dollars funding simultaneously for FGFA and RAFALE in the next decade

 

[ersakthivel]

What is IAF's commitment?? they have to decide not what antony tells in the parliament is final, because politicians stance change everyday

90% congress will not in power after May general election hence his comments will not have much value

Yes if Tejas with Mk1 , Mk2 & even if they come up with Mk3 will be good and boost for indegenisation and avoid MMRCA , but again it is IAF call not what politician say

FGFA again the Co- design & Co-Production should be similar to Brahmos just to avoid over dependency later on upgrades & spend billions in Maintenance because 5th generation fleet is like having healthy number of elephant in a small zoo

Retired IAF chief has said officially that the base repair depot of IAF can make a RAFALE class fighter within a decade !!!!!


Any aeronautical engineer will laugh his ass off at this silly statement!!!

Even if they try for ten years they can't make a single tail section of MMRCA type fighter,

He was refuted within a week by his deputy!!!!

So much for the technical knowledge of IAF!!!!!

And still you can find many retired fools of IAF calling tejas a Mig-21 replacement!!!!!!!

But the group captain Suneet krishna who won a best test pilot award a few years ago has categorically stated that ,

Tejas mk-1 is "at least " superior to the upgraded Mirage-2000, lets say nothing about mk-2,

In a recent chat in tarmak-007 chat ,

he has clearly stated that the aerodynamic profile of tejas is clearly superior to any F-16 airframe ,

and it is stupid to compare the tejas air frame to these twenty years old F-16 designs ,(after repeated badgering from many bloggers , including myself!!!!!)

Do you hear such statement from any of the top retired fools of IAF?

only thing they will cry hoarse is ,"there is no plan B if RAFALE deal is cancelled". Which is a white lie.

tejas mk-2 is there as a much more credible alternative, mk-2 will have same ASEA radar antenna dia nd much higher top speed than RAFALE. And RAFALE still does not have the HMDS cued deadly close combat WVR like R-73 or python which is the all crucial missile in WVR combat, tejas mk-1 itself has it.

They will never say this in the open .

But still they won't accept it.

 

[ladder]

A lot depends upon what happens in RAFALE deal, and whether IAF will stick with only existing squad numbers in immediate future,

Already it has been made clear many times by the top political leadership ,

that the country can't afford to spend huge forex amounts on very costly imported weapons ,

if there are no justifications for that.And the services were repeatedly told to focus on indigenous weapons ,

all due to slow economic growth and bleeding forex reserves.

And it will be tough for any one to release 60 billion dollars funding simultaneously for FGFA and RAFALE in the next decade

I am not debating what you are saying.
But, what I am saying is introduction of Tejas and the debate on the numbers of Tejas in service if IAF is due two policy decisions

1. Increasing no. of squadrons from 33.5 to 39 and ultimately 42. ( 2022 and 2025 timeline)

2. To procure or not to procure Rafale.


By the time 2 squadrons of Tejas are rolled out ( 2018) all four Mig-27 squadrons would have been replaced by Su-3o MKI.

So, I am not buying the argument that the total no. of Tejas in IAF in future depends upon the no. of fighters to be replaced but depends upon the policy decisions mentioned above.

So, we might end up with more than 300 Tejas or less than 200, but Col. Ajai Shukla is way off mark in equating the sole reason of induction being there is huge no. of fighters are to be replaced and predicting the final numbers based solely on the single factor.

 

[ersakthivel]

I am not debating what you are saying.
But, what I am saying is introduction of Tejas and the debate on the numbers of Tejas in service if IAF is due two policy decisions

1. Increasing no. of squadrons from 33.5 to 39 and ultimately 42. ( 2022 and 2025 timeline)

2. To procure or not to procure Rafale.


By the time 2 squadrons of Tejas are rolled out ( 2018) all four Mig-27 squadrons would have been replaced by Su-3o MKI.

So, I am not buying the argument that the total no. of Tejas in IAF in future depends upon the no. of fighters to be replaced but depends upon the policy decisions mentioned above.

So, we might end up with more than 300 Tejas or less than 200, but Col. Ajai Shukla is way off mark in equating the sole reason of induction being there is huge no. of fighters are to be replaced and predicting the final numbers based solely on the single factor.

Ajai Shukla is repeating what the minister said in parliament. he has not added his own views to the statement put out by the minister,

we are the guys who are discussing scenarios outside the minister's statement and by 2020 some early Su-30 MKI versions too will be close to retirement also.

many indirect indications were already given by the GOI regarding the fate of RAFALE deal,

which is so costly and adds nothing so significant to justify it. Infact we have to spend our own money to integrate R73 or python into RAFALE in collaboration with Russians to make it on par with IAF standards !!!! How much will that add to the RAfALE cost is any one's guess!!!

And as per Dassualt , HAL has no capacity to produce and integrate RAFALE and they want "highly experienced " Reliance for that purpose!!!(to screw us on TOT!! , is the original motive)

So there is nothing wrong on Ajai Shukla's part to assume that most of the retiring Migs will be replaced by Tejas.

Since IAf knows the issues of tejas in and out and mk-2 is a mere upgrade of mk-1 with no significant aerodynamic redesign there are no such uncertainities on mk-2 specs.

And the huge cost savings will weigh very heavily with the GOI , if not with the IAf.

 

[ersakthivel]

The cost doesn't include the price of engines ordered by ADA. So we have to add that too.

Where is the source for this claim?

is ADA responsible for paying the money to GE for engines ? or HAL?

Who is the production agency for tejas?

people are ready to accept shukla is right when he says that HAL has not included R&D cost in their price for tejas at 260 crs, They don't doubt Ajai shukla's integrity there.And some guys rush in to add that HAL has not included engine cost as well!!!!

But when he says 14 tejas squadron numbers will be there in IAF, guys refuse to believe him!!!!

people are ready to arrive at a conclusion that is most convenient for them,

they say Ajai is wrong when he says that as per the minister's statement IAF will include 14 tejas squadrons and counter it with point by point by argument, saying that the upper limit for tejas squadron is 11 , how come it can be 14?

What people forget is few upgraded Mig-29s would also be at the end of their useful life by 2020 . And will people still expect jags to continue after 2020? when tejas mk-2 is available?

Most of the upgradation programs are being done only as gap fillers.

Once tejas mk-2 is available IAF will look to replace these old planes with them.

So other than Su-30 MKI and mirage-2000s (because of the huge upgrade cost!!!) and FGFA most of the fighters in IAF can't be called modern in the sense , SO if tejas mk-2 is available at a very cost effective price IAF will naturally to look to replace them with tejas.

 

[praneetbajpaie]

well this is stupid. If the LCA costs 33.5 million USD per aircraft and is superior to the Mirage 2000, then why are we spending 45 million per aircraft upgrade for the Mirage?

Seriously, who takes these decisions?

 

[ersakthivel]

well this is stupid. If the LCA costs 33.5 million USD per aircraft and is superior to the Mirage 2000, then why are we spending 45 million per aircraft upgrade for the Mirage?

Seriously, who takes these decisions?

Million dollar question!!!!

 

[northernarunachalpradesh]

well this is stupid. If the LCA costs 33.5 million USD per aircraft and is superior to the Mirage 2000, then why are we spending 45 million per aircraft upgrade for the Mirage?

Seriously, who takes these decisions?

this is the big mystry till date.they might hav got the production line of mirag.

 

[ersakthivel]

this is the big mystry till date.they might hav got the production line of mirag.

may be it was to sweeten the snecma - kaveri engine deal, as a whole package of rafale-mirage-2000 upgrade-k-10 engine .

The moment k-10 deal fell through there is no justification for the hugely expensive RAFALE and Mirage-2000 deal.

I have already posted a senior analyst's article on this falling through of snecma -gtre deal on k-20.

Which questioned the motive of clinching MMRCA deal in favor of RAFALE first and letting the GTRE-SNECMA - k-10 engine deal fall through,

now the announcement that the tejas will occupy 14 squadrons in IAF signifies there are more troubles for french in rafale deal.

if the french are not ready to conclude TOT for k-10 , there is no justification for these hugely expensive RAFALE and mirage-2000 deal.


Because the engine TOT deal would have given us an engine for tejas mk-2 and AMCA. that is the only justification for this hugely expensive set of deals.

the GTRE-SNECMA negotiations which dragged on for three years mysteriously fell through immediately after the announcement of MMRCA winner and the hugely expensive Mirage-2000 upgrade deal,


which means the french have led us upto the garden path of the SNECMA jv for k-10 and wiggled out the moment RAFALE and mirage-2000 deals was clinched.

And now MOD is hitting back.it will be more interesting to watch this space for the implication of the tejas 14 squadron statement on RAFALE deal, as it closes the door for rafale in IAF

And is there any plan for tejas stealth mk-3 in those 14 squadron statement?

 

[sayareakd]

Good time to pump more money into kaveri engine a patt from 200 crores already announced. More the better if you want to have more LCA into IAF it should fly with our engine and for future AMCA.

 

[sob]

The main pertinent point is that does IAF have confidence on LCA.

Once the jet gets inducted and the IAF pilots fly it then they will decide. If it is as good as reports say then there will be pressure from within the IAF to induct them in large numbers.

How realistic is the 2020 figure for MK2?
IIRC HAL proposes to have a capacity of 8 planes a year and if MK 2 is coming in 2020 then how do we get 14 squadrons?
There is a large imported component of critical parts in LCA and these suppliers will not just start pumping out components at a moment's notice from HAL.

There are too many questions unanswered here. I too would like to see LCA fly in IAF roundels as the best Aircraft available rather than for the fact that it is made in India.

 

[Twinblade]

@sob, I don't think most people here understand how manufacturing works. These IT walas only know cut-copy-paste because that is their preferred mode of production . They think "The IAF should order Tejas in large numbers", "why are we upgrading mirages instead of ordering 1400 Tejas" and "we should produce 50 Tejas annually" while unable to comprehend the critically low squadron strength levels circa 2018-2019 post retirement of Bahadurs and absolute lack of production capacity in Indian aeronautical industry at sub-vendor levels where considerable amount of hand holding and spoon feeding is required by HAL+DRDO/ADA to get them on their feet. The production line can be fast as the slowest sub component and the projected production rates of Tejas reflects more on the nascent state of the industry rather than the customer's intent (who btw is flying 40 year old MiGs and would kill to get into a plane like Tejas which doesn't nose dive into terra firma every now and then).