IAF Tanker Contract - New RFI out

[thakur_ritesh]

accountability, where is it? bring in accountability, and if people cant prove their worth kick them out, but this is india, yahan sab chatla hai.

in a country where 26/11 happens, and no one is held responsible, do we expect the military purchases will be taken seriously?

post 26/11, deshmukh was removed to be rehabilitated as a cabinet minister in the center, rr patil was removed only to be reinstated, and that ass of a home minister shiv raj patil was removed only to be reinstated as the governor of punjab.

and we think these jokers will take the security of the nation seriously.

 

[ZOOM]

well mate, the two are no way comparable. AI has a revenue model in place unlike the IAF, even though they might be bankrupt today, remember IR was not very far from being bankrupt at one stage, and tomorrow if it were to come to it AI can be privatized but IAF cant be.

that said, if the ministry of finance has an issue with the pricing they better raise their issues at the initial stage, which will save a lot of time and money and that can only be done if they are involved by the MoD at various stages of price tendering and negotiation, and it be made mandatory that a representation from MoF be made to sit along with the price negotiation team, or else there will be such delays again and again.

on a similar pretext arent we already sitting on further possible cancellations and this time in the mmrca deal. they have invited the rafale and the eurofighter both of which if selected by the IAF will outrightly be eliminated purely based on the price factor by the MoF since the rfi suggests the life time costs as 80m usd/jet so why even send a rfi in the first place to such contenders. this whole thing requires a lot of streamlining to be done, and only then a process be initiated or else delays after delays will happen.

though havent they made a jackass of the whole thing yet again since the rfp has again been sent to the same 3 contenders to whom they had previously sent, and what if IAF again picks a330?

we have politicians who have no clues of how to run things, antony being one such, i would rather have a corrupt chap in place but who can get the things done at a lighting speed, seriously a chap like kamal nath is any day better and a bureaucracy which is always out there to prove that they are one up over others, and the armed forces are specifically targeted in this oneupmanship.

Ritesh, I am highly disappointed as far as content of your post is concerned, because my comparison with between AI and IAF only display Cost-Benefit analysis, since even thaugh procurement of A-330 Tankers for IAF may not have any Revenue illustration as AI procurement does, but there is nothing you can bring in to substitute IAF's demanding needs of having Extended Reach and Endurance of its fighter jets and at the same time, you cannot quantify them in revenue terms. My only contention was to Finance Ministries objectionable stand to cancel Tanker purchase to which IAF was highly looking to fulfill shortfall created by literally next to its smaller fleet of Tanker Assets comprises IL-78MD's, because no Revenue or Profit & Loss statement can quantify Institutional capability that can bring forth by force multipliers like Tankers.

I can go in great lengh about your statements of Privatization and Revenue as well as MRCA part which justify Air India's purchase of massive passanger jet fleet, but it may serve very little purpose to the topic of this thread. Regarding Indian inefficient Govt Machinery and Political loopholes coupled with excessive delays, I can only say that, we don't have anyother substitutes to this age old hinderence and hence we need to accordingly need to specify our security demands under same structure which show very little regard for India's security.

 

[Yusuf]

Joining in late in this thread on the latest news, i have a feeling that a direct FMS might be on the cards. So we may have the KCs in our fleet to refuel and will have the Russians and the Europeans fretting and fuming.

 

[RPK]

By Nikhil Gulati
Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
NEW DELHI (Dow Jones)--Boeing Co. (BA) said Monday it has received initial requests for information from India's federal government for supplying six refueling tankers, in what is likely to further expand the U.S. aircraft maker's presence in this burgeoning market for defense equipment.

"We will do a detailed evaluation of the request for interest from the Indian government, study our inventory, and accordingly inform the government," Vivek Lall, vice president and country head of defense and space and security at Boeing India, told reporters.

Lall didn't elaborate on the potential value of the contract.

"We will have to study what we can supply and then only we can talk about the value of the order."

Earlier this month, Boeing said that the U.S. government has received a letter of request from India's defense ministry and the Indian Air Force on the potential acquisition of 10 C-17 Globemaster III advanced airlifters.

India, one of the world's top importers of arms, wants to buy the new airlifters to modernize its fleet of Russian-built AN-32 and IL-76 airlifters.

The country is also in the process of acquiring 126 combat planes for an estimated $10 billion.

Boeing is among six companies, including Lockheed Martin Corp. and Dassault Aviation SA, who are vying for the contract--billed as the biggest fighter jet deal since the 1990s.

Boeing has estimated that it could bid for potential defense deals in India worth about $31 billion between 2009 and 2019.

"This number is going to grow as India tries to protect its borders," said Dinesh Keskar, president of Boeing India. "Our estimates are for segments which we can address such as fighter and attack aircrafts, heavy lift cargo aircrafts, missiles, airborne early warning and training systems."

New Plane Repair Center, 787 Dreamliner Delivery

Boeing Co. will start building a $100 million aircraft maintenance, repair and overhaul center in a joint venture with state-run carrier, Air India, this year, Keskar said.

"We had deferred the construction of the MRO (center) since delivery of the 787 was being deferred," Keskar said. "Now, we are on track to deliver the first 787 Dreamliner to Air India by the second quarter of 2011."

The Dreamliners were originally scheduled to be delivered in late 2009. Air India has ordered 27 of the twin-aisle, long-haul aircraft.

Keskar said the MRO center, being built in the western Indian city of Nagpur, will primarily service Air India's fleet of 787 and 777 planes.

Keskar said Boeing will take about two to two-and-a-half years to build the repair center. "When Air India gets the plane (787), it won't require maintenance for at least two years, so we are talking about 2013 (when the center will be operational)."

UPDATE:Boeing Gets Initial India Request For 6 Refueling Planes - WSJ.com

 

[nitesh]

Thinking from logistics point of view:

Isn't it make sense to have more IL 78 MKI as re fullers who themen IAF is going ahead to buy more Phalcons with IL 78 as the platform for choice. Or as Boeing got the RFI for re fullers so another deal going to them...........

 

[bengalraider]

UPDATE:Boeing Gets Initial India Request For 6 Refueling Planes1-18-10 6:57 AM EST​

​

(Adds more details)

By Nikhil Gulati
Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

NEW DELHI -(Dow Jones)- Boeing Co. (BA) said Monday it has received initial requests for information from India's federal government for supplying six refueling tankers, in what is likely to further expand the U.S. aircraft maker's presence in this burgeoning market for defense equipment.

"We will do a detailed evaluation of the request for interest from the Indian government, study our inventory, and accordingly inform the government," Vivek Lall, vice president and country head of defense and space and security at Boeing India, told reporters.

Lall didn't elaborate on the potential value of the contract.

"We will have to study what we can supply and then only we can talk about the value of the order."

Earlier this month, Boeing said that the U.S. government has received a letter of request from India's defense ministry and the Indian Air Force on the potential acquisition of 10 C-17 Globemaster III advanced airlifters.

India, one of the world's top importers of arms, wants to buy the new airlifters to modernize its fleet of Russian-built AN-32 and IL-76 airlifters.

The country is also in the process of acquiring 126 combat planes for an estimated $10 billion.

Boeing is among six companies, including Lockheed Martin Corp. and Dassault Aviation SA, who are vying for the contract--billed as the biggest fighter jet deal since the 1990s.

Boeing has estimated that it could bid for potential defense deals in India worth about $31 billion between 2009 and 2019.

"This number is going to grow as India tries to protect its borders," said Dinesh Keskar, president of Boeing India. "Our estimates are for segments which we can address such as fighter and attack aircrafts, heavy lift cargo aircrafts, missiles, airborne early warning and training systems."

New Plane Repair Center, 787 Dreamliner Delivery

Boeing Co. will start building a $100 million aircraft maintenance, repair and overhaul center in a joint venture with state-run carrier, Air India, this year, Keskar said.

"We had deferred the construction of the MRO (center) since delivery of the 787 was being deferred," Keskar said. "Now, we are on track to deliver the first 787 Dreamliner to Air India by the second quarter of 2011."

The Dreamliners were originally scheduled to be delivered in late 2009. Air India has ordered 27 of the twin-aisle, long-haul aircraft.

Keskar said the MRO center, being built in the western Indian city of Nagpur, will primarily service Air India's fleet of 787 and 777 planes.

Keskar said Boeing will take about two to two-and-a-half years to build the repair center. "When Air India gets the plane (787), it won't require maintenance for at least two years, so we are talking about 2013 (when the center will be operational)."

-By Nikhil Gulati, Dow Jones Newswires; +91-11-4356-3306; santanu.choudhury@ dowjones.com


(END) Dow Jones Newswires
01-18-100657ET
Copyright (c) 2010 Dow Jones & Company, Inc.

UPDATE:Boeing Gets Initial India Request For 6 Refueling Planes

reconfirmation of the above news from the dow jones newswire as well ,as i said earlier the Americans are here

 

[Armand2REP]

reconfirmation of the above news from the dow jones newswire as well ,as i said earlier the Americans are here

Its funny Boeing thinks they can compete against Airbus in India when they complain about their own US tenders being unfair. This should make for a good laugh.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Looks like the Indian Govt and Boeing are in bed together first the P8-I,C-17 and now the refuellers, I would not be suprised to see the superhornet win the MRCA at this rate.

 

[Armand2REP]

Looks like the Indian Govt and Boeing are in bed together first the P8-I,C-17 and now the refuellers, I would not be suprised to see theb superhornet win the MRCA at this rate.

Don't get excited, it is just GoI getting in another player to drive down costs. Boeing hasn't even decided to join yet.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Don't get excited, it is just GoI getting in another player to drive down costs. Boeing hasn't even decided to join yet.

I don't know how Boeing would provide pricing competition when they are one of the costliest if not the costliest in most of the things they produce ;for the price India paid for 1 P8-I they could have bought 9 Orions P-3's.

 

[neo29]

Seems congress is on boeing's payroll.
airbus is 80 to 100 million dollars expensive than boeing ( source wiki ). but if iaf has chosen airbus then obviously they want the best and FM should respect it. airbus has an edge over boeing hence its expensive and iaf chose it.

The first RFI has been sent to Boeing. Are they sending RFI for illyusion and Airbus ? Illyusion was already eliminated by iaf because it did not meet their requirement. Airbus rejected by FM reason being cost. so they may not send them RFI.
so only one RFI and a clear way for Boeing to win ??

 

[Yusuf]

Well before we make any conclusion about who is on the bankrolls or in bed with Boeing, let us analyse what has happened so far.
P8Is, Hercules, and the C17s. All have come via the FMS route which means a government to government sale at the price the US forces themselves buy. So there cannot be misgivings about the price and anyone being on the bankrolls. Also there is no competition at present as far as the requirement for the above three planes go as set by the IAF. So whats the fuss about?

If we can get the KC 135s at a cost lesser than the Airbus, i would not see a reason why we dont go for this one as well. As it is we are getting a host of other planes from Boeing. Training and logistics will be taken care of. Besides we can build new logistics if required. We cannot keep harping on that word forever and continue to buy Russian or European wares. Strategic value generated by defense purchases also have to be kept in mind.

 

[Yusuf]

Neo,
Pretty difficult to describe what is best and in the eyes of whom. If the IAF has a certain requirement which cannot be compromised, then it will even pay through its nose. If price is a factor then they will consider all option if the requirement is flexible.

Again, its a case of strategic gain in defense deals.

 

[neo29]

Neo,
Pretty difficult to describe what is best and in the eyes of whom. If the IAF has a certain requirement which cannot be compromised, then it will even pay through its nose. If price is a factor then they will consider all option if the requirement is flexible.

Again, its a case of strategic gain in defense deals.

it may be difficult for a layman like us to describe which is best. but iaf has done its homework and chosen the best. We can easily trust iaf to choose the best it wants and it has done it by choosing airbus. iaf even keeps the pricing of hardware in mind for any tender.

what does the FM know about whats best for iaf except the pricing. IAF authority to choose the best hardware has already been compromised when airbus was rejected.

Strategic gain at the cost of best hardware is totally a wrong approach.

thank god its just refueller, imagine same thing happening in mmrca.

 

[Yusuf]

I think it would be interesting to compare the KC 135 with the Airbus A330 or 310 refuellers in all aspects so that we can have a better idea of where the two stand. It is also possible that the government is trying to pull in Boeing to put pressure on Airbus to reduce its cost. A game of cat and mouse.

 

[enlightened1]

India issues RFI for refuelling tankers​

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/01/21/337388/india-issues-rfi-for-refuelling-tankers.html​

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/01/21/337388/india-issues-rfi-for-refuelling-tankers.htmlhttp://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/01/21/337388/india-issues-rfi-for-refuelling-tankers.html

By Leithen Francis

India's defence ministry has issued a fresh request for information linked to its possible future purchase of six new in-flight refuelling aircraft, having put the brakes on a previous competition process late in 2009.

New Delhi confirms that it has issued the new request to potential suppliers, but declines to comment further on its requirements or potential procurement schedule.

Boeing says it has received the RFI and plans to participate, but adds that as "to what type we will be offering, that is still subject to internal discussions. The company has just received the RFI, and is studying it to determine India's requirements."

The US manufacturer already has the KC-767 tanker/transport based on its commercial 767 platform, but has also more recently given consideration to perhaps developing a variant of its larger 777 design.

The Indian air force now flies a fleet of Ilyushin Il-78MKI tankers and had received information on an improved version through a previous request for proposals for up to six new aircraft. EADS subsidiary Airbus Military had also supplied information on its Airbus A330-based multirole tanker transport as part of the contest, but the process was abandoned after India's finance ministry raised reservations about an acquisition.

India's military has a large fleet of Russian and Ukrainian-built aircraft, but closer ties with the USA in recent years have seen it place orders for Boeing P-8I maritime patrol aircraft and Lockheed Martin C-130J tactical transports.

New Delhi is already looking to further this co-operation, having submitted a letter of request to the US government in January for a possible purchase of up to 10 Boeing C-17 strategic transports.

 

[notinlove]

Here is a comparison between kc 767 and A330 mrtt ...kc 135 is pretty old so i didn't include it .. its only fair to compare the latest from both.

Crew
3-both

Capacity

A330-380 passengers and 8 military pallets + 1LD6 container + 1 LD3 container (lower deck cargo compartments)
kc 767- up to 200 passengers or 19 463L pallets

Range-
A330 - 14800 km
KC-767 - 12200 km

Speed
A330-860 kmph
kc-767 - 851 kmph

service ceiling

A330-12600 m
KC-767 - 12200m

Price
no idea!!!

sufficient to say that airbus is better almost everywhere except price(i suppose)
it has other plus points like easy conversion to hospital and crew carrying plane also.
moreover boeing lost to it in the us tender.

 

[rakesh]

German President arrives in India under cloud of Airbus issues

02 Feb 2010 8ak: German President Horst Koehler arrived in India on Monday for a week-long visit with a high powered business delegation. He will hold talks with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on enhancing the bilateral ties between the two nations before visiting Mumbai and Pune. At the German Ambassador Mr Thomas Matussek said that the refueller tender cancellation for Airbus was a nasty surprise (Telegraph report), Airbus itself is under a CBI investigation over a commercial offset clause mandated by the Empowered Group of Ministers which was diluted by Air India negotiators (DNA report).

Koehler, the former chief of International Monetary Fund (IMF) will also meet RBI Governor D. Subbarao to discuss the impact of global melt down, apart from meeting President Pratibha Patil, UPA Chief Sonia Gandhi, External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishhna and Leader of Opposition in Lok Sabha (Lower house of Indian Parliament) Sushma Swaraj.

"The key objective of President Koehler's visit is to open up new avenues for Germany and India to work together in developing a 21st- century world policy based on mutual cooperation," the German Embassy said. The last time a German head of state is visited India was 2003.

The two leaders are expected to focus on enhancing cooperation in areas of combating international terrorism, climate change, poverty alienation and economic cooperation. 8ak sources have revealed that Germany was also likely to propose a civil nuclear deal to New Delhi.

The visit is also give a much needed boost to four pacts including one on security and counter-terrorism, economic and technical cooperation, social security and corporate social responsibility, which have been in the pipeline for a long time, but not signed due to bureaucratic delays in New Delhi.

The relationship between the two nations has improved drastically the two nations signed a strategic alliance pact in 2001. Over the years Germany has emerged as India's biggest trade partner in the European Union with bilateral trade of more than US$20 billion.

Casting shadow on the visit of German President is the India government’s decision to cancel the US$1.5 billion deal for six-mid air refuellers with EADS promoted Airbus-330. German Ambassador Thomas Matussek had earlier said that the cancellation of the tender had come as a “nasty surprise” for Berlin. Adding further the Ambassador had said that cost was given precedence over quality, performance of the system, state-of-the-art-technology and reliability.

Posted by Manu Sood at 9:03:38 PM in Air Force, International, ScamWatch

Technorati Tags: Airbus scandal, commercial offset, External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna, German President Koehler, Indian PM Manmohan Singh, Leader of Opposition Sushma Swaraj, UPA Chief Sonia Gandhi

http://www.8ak.in/8ak_india_defence_news/2010/02/german-president-arrives-in-india-under-cloud-of-airbus-issues.html

 

[mattster]

A couple of points:

1) I dont think you need to be an expert to see that the Illuyshin platform is just plain old. Heck it looks like it belongs in a museum.

2) Between Airbus and Boeing, I am sure its going to be a tough fight but I must think that Airbus is slightly better because even the USAF selected Airbus over Boeing until the hue and cry forced a re-tender. Regardless of who the IAF select, its about time that India take advantage of the fact unlike China, India can get the latest and best Western hardware.
This gives India a qualitative edge over China in terms of hardware. But to keep buying the same old Russian hardware that the Chinese can also buy just does not make sense.

 

[Sridhar]

LM also has received RFI and they are considering a response

http://www.ezinemart.com/force/15022010/pdf/page31.pdf