IAF Tanker Contract - New RFI out

neo29

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Initially i thought it was a ploy to make way for Boeing as a good gesture to the US but it contradicts the theory of costs.

IL - 78 is cheapest among the lot. then comes airbus and then boeing. if airbus is costly for them then surely boeing seems to be out of question. So after all that painstaking process we going for IL-78 again ?????
 

Agantrope

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what other options do we have if not the A330? i believe there is a long waiting period for the ILs, the MoF has nuked the A330s and the only other player left is boeing.....what other options does IAF have, any ideas? To me it looks like being stage managed to give the Americans yet another slice of the Indian Defence pie.
If airbus is costlier and it screwed, means boeing will be equally costlier like airbus.:whip:
8K Crores -> Airbus
7.5K -> Boeing (not sure of exact figure)
4.8K Il-78

So if GoI wanna get screwed by public and opposition they ll go for Made in US tag. :sAni_babymonkey2:
 

ppgj

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india needs tankers which is the priority and not transport of troops and equipment.

india has enough transport aircrafts in AN-32's - getting upgrades, and IL-76's. additionally they are buying c-17 globemaster - Government set to ink record $2.2 billion arms deal with US- Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times

we do not need extra features than needed. paying such huge extra money to Airbus for features not of any significant value makes no sense.

i think it is wise. save bucks and put it where it counts. however in all this, delay is inescapablle which is not acceptable. IAF also needs to put their act together.
 

Armand2REP

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Initially i thought it was a ploy to make way for Boeing as a good gesture to the US but it contradicts the theory of costs.

IL - 78 is cheapest among the lot. then comes airbus and then boeing. if airbus is costly for them then surely boeing seems to be out of question. So after all that painstaking process we going for IL-78 again ?????
I don't think Americans have anything to do with it. It is a re-tender to give Russia a chance to get their act together. They aren't going to start production until 2012 so they are going to string along the process to give Russia another chance to meet the timetable. Finance Min. wants the cheapest whenever while IAF wants the best and wants it now.
 

Agantrope

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I don't think Americans have anything to do with it. It is a re-tender to give Russia a chance to get their act together. They aren't going to start production until 2012 so they are going to string along the process to give Russia another chance to meet the timetable. Finance Min. wants the cheapest whenever while IAF wants the best and wants it now.
Again another half-boil comment (no offence). 8K Crore for a Tanker is really absurd when the alloted is 5K crore. Even if the overhead is 40-50% it is manageable :smash: but more than will invite the adventurous journals to investigate the things happened. GoI is playing safe now. I think that the ministry had taken a lesson from the Mirage deal and it wont want to get the screw again on their back.

Again do the math for (8K-5K)/5K in % terms u can know abt the details :thank_you2:
 

Armand2REP

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Again another half-boil comment (no offence). 8K Crore for a Tanker is really absurd when the alloted is 5K crore. Even if the overhead is 40-50% it is manageable :smash: but more than will invite the adventurous journals to investigate the things happened. GoI is playing safe now. I think that the ministry had taken a lesson from the Mirage deal and it wont want to get the screw again on their back.

Again do the math for (8K-5K)/5K in % terms u can know abt the details :thank_you2:
Not so half boilled. Airbus had practically won the US RFP for their KC-X tanker over Boeing but was cancelled because they didn't want the political pressure of handing so much money out of country. IAF chose Airbus for the same reason Boeing knew they couldn't compete with Airbus, it is the best offer that meets all requirements. Russians couldn't meet the requirements which is why they weren't selected by IAF. Yes, intial monies are the motivating factor for FinMin which is why they are refloating a new bid to give Russia a chance with less demanding reqs and timetables. Fine by France, we will win KC-X and Indian tenders, Airbus is the best tanker in the world no matter how you rig the game.
 

Agantrope

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Not so half boilled. Airbus had practically won the US RFP for their KC-X tanker over Boeing but was cancelled because they didn't want the political pressure of handing so much money out of country. IAF chose Airbus for the same reason Boeing knew they couldn't compete with Airbus, it is the best offer that meets all requirements. Russians couldn't meet the requirements which is why they weren't selected by IAF. Yes, intial monies are the motivating factor for FinMin which is why they are refloating a new bid to give Russia a chance with less demanding reqs and timetables. Fine by France, we will win KC-X and Indian tenders, Airbus is the best tanker in the world no matter how you rig the game.
Accepted as far as the performance and features of the Airbus. But still you cant pay the price of horse for a pony right??:)>

I believe that this decision based on the past experience
 

neo29

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Its high time GoI starts giving up its obsession with cheap products and look for quality and quick delivery.
A bill should be introduced in the parliament to avoid such re-tender problems and clashes within the armed forces, MoD and the FM related to a product quality and costs.
 

bengalraider

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I have said it before and i will say it again" The Americans are already here" read the signs.
 

neo29

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Let GoI buy "made in USA" tag products as long as its meets the quality and immediate requirement.
But wasting time like this is sheer stupidity on part of our babu's. seriously some bill must be passed to keep our obsolete defence products in check and replace them and to avoid delays in procurement.
 

dineshchaturvedi

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This is height of mismanagement. When the prices are known upfront why can't FM raise an objection upfront. Also do we always want to go cheap, is this a good strategy
 

Quickgun Murugan

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IAF lashes out at Indian Bureaucracy

IAF and Industry furious about bureacratic cancellation of refueller bid

After two years of trialling the Airbus A330, the industry was certain that Airbus deal was through when from an unexpected corner a bureaucrat in the Ministry of Finance cancelled the deal. This has angered the IAF, obviously Airbus and the defence industry both within India and overseas. At a CII-KPMG conference yesterday, Brig Hai commented (not related to this deal) that India should stop looking at defence acquisitions as a "procedure" and start looking at it as a matter of national importance. A few foreign vendors have said that "We don't mind if we lose out to a better product from a competitor, but it is very frustrating when tenders are repeatedly cancelled for no fault of the vendors. It is also a very costly process."

Another source pointed out that the problem is that a bureaucrat sitting in a ministry has absolutely no incentive to pass a project. Whether a project passes or not, makes no difference to their career and if they are 2 years away from retirement then nobody can point fingers at them if they say reject a proposal. Another source said that no major deal has been passed under the Congress. All deals major deal were made under the NDA government a decade ago, even the ones signed recently. The Congress has neither the vision nor the capability to strengthen the nation. 8ak has repeatedly pointed out that Antony achieved nothing in his previous 3 year term as defence minister and only rose to action post-Mumbai-attack pressure and even then everything is on paper.

India’s cancellation of the contract for six A330 in-flight refuelers on Dec. 30 is worrying international companies, which complain that transparency is decidedly lacking in Indian defence procurement reports AFP.

The adverse step of cancelling the contract was taken after the finance minister raised reservations over the high price offered by EADS for its refuelers in comparison to Russia’s Ilyushin offer. Interestingly, in January 2009 the Russian bid was 1.05 billion Euros (without the extra five engines and maintenance). This price had inflated 384 percent since 2004, when India purchased six IL-78s. The EADS bid was for 1.71 billion Euros, and was under negotiation. This included the extra engines and 30 years of depot-level servicing.

The government had sent Request for Proposal (RFP) to arms majors like EADS, Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Ilyushin for US$1.5 billion deal for years ago. However, only French EADS and Russian Ilyushin had responded to the query.

The government’s move has left the IAF fuming. A top IAF official told 8ak that the entire force was agitated due to government’s callous attitude on matters of defence procurement. Adding further, he said that cheap is not always the best option and the A-330s were certainly more modern and reliable than the IL-78s and that the government should be considerate towards the demands of the IAF, as it was a responsible national force and will never ask the government to shell out money unnecessarily. The official suggested that the key to avoid such a situation was to put officials who have know-how of defence in charge of matters and not a random bureaucrat.

Meanwhile, Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshall PV Naik has publicly said that the move will delay the plans of IAF to induct the much-needed refuellers as the entire process will have to be repeated once again. "I am not talking about strategic reach, but we need more refuellers, which will be delayed now. We will have to restart the action now," Naik told reporters when asked if the IAF's strategic reach might be adversely impacted by the withdrawal of the tenders.

The deal was crucial to IAF because the refuellers add to its capability of hitting targets deep inside enemy territory as it increases the endurance of its combat aircrafts. A330 is superior to the IL-78 in many ways. The Russian aircraft’s extra fuel tanks have to be fitted in the cargo hold, which results in lesser dispensation of fuel. The A330’s cruising speed at 860 km/h (464 knots) is higher than IL-78, which has a cruising speed of 850 km/h (460 knots) and it has commonality with civil aircraft that makes its maintenance less cumbersome. More importantly The A330 with a range of 14,800 kilometres (9,200 miles) can travel double the distance in comparison to IL-78, which has a range of 7,300 km (3,942 miles).

8ak - Indian Defence News
 

Quickgun Murugan

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Seriously. I feel there needs to be a clause in our constitution that, the post of defence minister should only be filled by a military personnel.

Why the hell is Finance and defence ministry letting down IAF. Shame on them. None of the bloody politicians are going to raise this issue in parliament either.
 

mattster

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Will anything ever change in India ??
It seems like the "land of incompetent bureaucrats".

They need a young dynamic competent Defense Minister who is not afraid to take on the lazy dumb bureacrats in the MOD who are not interested in the well-being of the country but their own careers.

AK Anthony is out of his league. He may be a clean politician, but he clearly does not have the management skills for this huge position.

If things need to change they need to make the Defense ministry position one that is not based on political considerations but based on skill. Either get an ex-military guy or an established professional manager from the private sector for this post.
 

neo29

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As i said earlier , a bill must be passed in the parliament to avoid such delay and re-tenders and make sure no hiccups come when choosing the best defence hardware in the interest of the country.

Honestly the media should highlight all these factors on tv just like the they highlight molestation scam, land scam and bulletproof scam. thats when our politicians get their act together.
 

ZOOM

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One of the most laughable joke about this FM decision to cancel this deal is that, they have given due approval to bankcrupt entity like Air India to purchase more then 100 Boeing Passanger jets including much expensive Dreamliners, even thaugh even street expectation is that Air India will highly unlikely to capitalize on this new capacity addition. At the same time, despite repeated measures Air India is unlikely to do any miracle with this huge capacity addition because market for air travel is going through its highest lows.

And on other hand, we have Finance Ministry has tropoded much needed effort on the part of IAF to modernize its fleet despite not asking for much.
 

thakur_ritesh

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One of the most laughable joke about this FM decision to cancel this deal is that, they have given due approval to bankcrupt entity like Air India to purchase more then 100 Boeing Passanger jets including much expensive Dreamliners, even thaugh even street expectation is that Air India will highly unlikely to capitalize on this new capacity addition. At the same time, despite repeated measures Air India is unlikely to do any miracle with this huge capacity addition because market for air travel is going through its highest lows.

And on other hand, we have Finance Ministry has tropoded much needed effort on the part of IAF to modernize its fleet despite not asking for much.
well mate, the two are no way comparable. AI has a revenue model in place unlike the IAF, even though they might be bankrupt today, remember IR was not very far from being bankrupt at one stage, and tomorrow if it were to come to it AI can be privatized but IAF cant be.

that said, if the ministry of finance has an issue with the pricing they better raise their issues at the initial stage, which will save a lot of time and money and that can only be done if they are involved by the MoD at various stages of price tendering and negotiation, and it be made mandatory that a representation from MoF be made to sit along with the price negotiation team, or else there will be such delays again and again.

on a similar pretext arent we already sitting on further possible cancellations and this time in the mmrca deal. they have invited the rafale and the eurofighter both of which if selected by the IAF will outrightly be eliminated purely based on the price factor by the MoF since the rfi suggests the life time costs as 80m usd/jet so why even send a rfi in the first place to such contenders. this whole thing requires a lot of streamlining to be done, and only then a process be initiated or else delays after delays will happen.

though havent they made a jackass of the whole thing yet again since the rfp has again been sent to the same 3 contenders to whom they had previously sent, and what if IAF again picks a330?

we have politicians who have no clues of how to run things, antony being one such, i would rather have a corrupt chap in place but who can get the things done at a lighting speed, seriously a chap like kamal nath is any day better and a bureaucracy which is always out there to prove that they are one up over others, and the armed forces are specifically targeted in this oneupmanship.
 

sob

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This whole Govt. has become a joke. No decision is being taken. All decisions go through first a committee of secretaries, than through CCPA ( Cabinet Committee on Political affairs), then it is refered to a EGOM ( empowered group of ministers), and if no decision is taken then a Super Group of ministers go into this.

By the time the decision is taken either the problem has blown away or as in this case decision is taken by people not directly involved and the result is that the whole establishment and the country is made to look like a Jack Ass and the procurement is pushed back by 5 years.
 

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