IAF losing edge over PAF

[ganesh177]

May be its just a difficult time right now, but coming days we will again gain our edge with the fighters from different deals getting inducted in IAF.

 

[cw2005]

BVR capability is not the only thing to be considered. With high power BVR radar, you would only spot an aircraft but you could not fire your missile until you have confirmed friend or foe. We have to compare how effective are the IAF and PAF's in their planes for this ability. Therefore, with longer range radar, longer range missile might not be the sure winner and that is also why the AWAC becomes so important.

 

[JAYRAM]

This is the same psychological war..

 

[p2prada]

PL-11 has yet to be integrated on JF-17

I still remember the PAF ACM's words when they received the first batch of AMRAAMs even before they got the Block 52 delivered. Hilarious.

So, it's just 1 Squadron with BVR.

 

[p2prada]

BVR capability is not the only thing to be considered. With high power BVR radar, you would only spot an aircraft but you could not fire your missile until you have confirmed friend or foe. We have to compare how effective are the IAF and PAF's in their planes for this ability. Therefore, with longer range radar, longer range missile might not be the sure winner and that is also why the AWAC becomes so important.

In peace time visual confirmation is a must. Collateral damage is not acceptable during such times.

But during war time anything that is not identified by your IFF system is a target. Even if some silly sends a passenger aircraft over Pakistan is not our mistake if we blow it up.

Both Indian and Pakistani aircraft can identify friend or foe using IFF.

 

[sayareakd]

guys you need to check few things

check the weapon load of Indian fighter and that of Pakistani fighters

Indian fighter

MKI (about 150)

Empty weight: 18,400 kg[64] (40,565 lb)
Loaded weight: 24,900 kg (54,895 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 38,800 kg (85,600 lb)

Mig 21 (about 200) (120 Mig 21 Bison)
Empty weight: 4,871 kg (10,738 lb)
Gross weight: 7,100 kg (15,650 lb)

Mig 29 (about 69)
Empty weight: 11,000 kg (24,250 lb)
Loaded weight: 16,800 kg (37,000 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 21,000 kg (46,300 lb)

Mirage 2000 (about 51)
Empty weight: 7,500 kg (16,350 lb)
Loaded weight: 13,800 kg (30,420 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 17,000 kg (37,500 lb)

Mig 27 (about 100)
Empty weight: 11,908 kg (26,253 lb) (equipped) [2] ()
Loaded weight: 20,300 kg (44,800 lb) [2] ()
Max takeoff weight: 20,670 kg (45,570 lb) ()

Jaguar (about 169)
Empty weight: 7,000 kg (15,432 lb)
Loaded weight: 10,954 kg (24,149 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 15,700 kg (34,612 lb)

Pakistani fighter

JF 17 (about 40)
Empty weight: 6,411 kg (14,134 lb)
Loaded weight: 9,100 kg[7][115] (20,062 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 12,700 kg[115] (28,000 lb)


F16 (about 63)
Empty weight: 18,900 lb (8,570 kg)
Loaded weight: 26,500 lb (12,000 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 42,300 lb (19,200 kg)


Mirage III (about 100) (old one only 33 are upgrade Rose)
Empty weight: 7,050 kg (15,600 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 13,500 kg (29,700 lb)

Mirage 5 (about 60) (only 34 are upgrade Rose)
Empty weight: 7,150 kg (15,763 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 13,700 kg (30,203 lb)

F7 (about 160) (only 60 upgrade)
Empty weight: 5,292 kg (11,667 lb)
Loaded weight: 7,540 kg (16,620 lb) (two PL-2 or PL-7 air-to-air missiles)
Max takeoff weight: 9,100 kg (20,062 lb)

from the above we can clearly see which Airforce has number and which can carry more weight per aircraft. MKI carries almost same weapon load as weight of Mig 21.

Pakistan about 423 and India about 740
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Indian_Air_Force
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Pakistan_Air_Force

 

[Rahul92]

U forgot our Tejas Bro

General characteristics

* Crew: 1
* Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in)
* Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)
* Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in)
* Wing area: 38.4 m² (413 ft²)
* Empty weight: 6,560 kg (14,460 lb)
* Loaded weight: 10,500 kg (23,100 lb)
* Max takeoff weight: 13,300 kg (29,540 lb)
* Powerplant: 1 × General Electric F404-GE-IN20 turbofan
o Dry thrust: 53.9 kN (11,250 lbf)
o Thrust with afterburner: 85 kN (19,000 lbf)
* Internal fuel capacity: 2458 kg
* External fuel capacity: 2x1200 litre drop tank at inboard, 1x725 litre drop tank under fuselage.

Performance

* Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (2,376+ km/h at high altitude) at 15,000 m
* Range: 3,000 km (1,840 mi) without refueling
* Service ceiling: 15,250 m (50,000 ft (engine re-igniter safely capable))
* Wing loading: 221.4 kg/m² (45.35 lb/ft²)
* Thrust/weight: 0.91
* g-limits: +9/−3.5 g[78]

 

[sayareakd]

@rah LCA is not operational in IAF that is why it was not listed. Only 8 LCA as per Wiki, those are under development.

 

[sayareakd]

you guys should check this

IAF fighter in total can lift:70,26,800

PAF fighter in total can lift:33,73,040

so we have advantage of 36,53,760


here is how it has been calculated

Plane No. Empty W. Max takeoff W. total ne
MKI 150 18400 38800 20400 3060000
Mig21 200 4871 7100 2229 445800
Mig29 69 11000 21000 10000 690000
Mirage 2K 51 7500 17000 9500 484500
Mig 27 100 11908 20670 8762 876200
Jagure 169 7000 15700 8700 1470300

Total Indian fighter weight: 7026800

Plane No. Empty W. Max takeoff W. total ne
JF17 40 6411 12700 6289 251560
F16 63 18900 42300 23400 1474200
Mirage III 100 7050 13500 6450 645000
Mirage 5 60 7150 13700 6550 393000
J-7 160 5292 9100 3808 609280

Total Pakistan fighter weight: 3373040

[Weight mention here means additional take off weight (weapons and fuel etc)]

 

[p2prada]

You can't compare total tonnage like we do to compare navies. Air forces are compared with sortie rates and availability.

At 95% availability and 300 hours per pilot given to the MKI, we already far surpass PAF's capabilities in the above 2 parameters let alone the technological gap and sheer numbers.

 

[thefewthefearless]

With the IAF's edge slipping fast, the PAF's assertiveness is likely to increase.



The Pakistan Air Force is stronger than ever. Since the last Indo-Pak air war of 1971, the Pakistan Air Force has with steely determination built up numbers, lethal capabilities and a combat force now counted as one of the most disciplined and well-trained air forces in the world.

Headlines Today has a disturbing proof that all this has made India worried. A recent presentation by the defence intelligence establishment paints a morbid picture of how the numbers and capability advantage that the Indian Air Force has always found comfort in is rapidly slipping away.

Headlines Today has accessed the recent presentation made to the Ministry of Defence. The document makes singularly ominous projections. The most glaring warning is about combat force ratio.

The presentation says that the ratio of 1:1.7 is likely to progressively dip to 1:1.2 by the end of 2012. It describes this as a "historic low". It also says that the traditional hi-tech advantage is almost equal now with 9.5:11 squadron ratio.

With Pakistan rapidly acquiring early warning aircraft, mid-air refuellers and long-range missiles, the technology gap is at a historic low.

It is a wake-up call to India's military planners. The decisions taken now could forever doom the crucial advantage that the Indian Air Force has always enjoyed against an adversary that can never be underestimated.

A formidable adversary

The last time the air forces of India and Pakistan fought a full-blown war was forty years ago.

But if the Pakistan Air Force of 1971 was an enemy to be reckoned with, circumstances have made it an even more formidable adversary today.

The internal assessment by the Indian defence establishment makes some grimly practical projections in the light of an adversary emboldened by an unfettered modernisation spree.

The government has been warned that with the Indian Air Force's edge slipping fast, the Pakistan Air Force's assertiveness is likely to increase.

Once seen as a primarily defensive force, the Pakistan Air Force will use its new strength to employ offensive and defensive operations in equal measure.

With new precision weapons, the Pakistan Air Force will conduct limited strikes to achieve strategic effects.

The one thing that won't change -- high-value targets in J&K will be high-priority targets for the PAF.

There's a deeper threat at play than just fighter numbers. Consider these newly inducted force multiplers that all but kill the Indian air advantage. Pakistan is inducting four Swedish Saab Erieye and four Chinese Y-8 airborne early warning aircraft, while India, currently, has three.

Swedish Saab Erieye

Chinese Y-8




India no longer has the mid-air refueller advantage. Pakistan is inducting four identical IL-78M aircraft.

The Indian Air Force's UAV advantage is also disappearing. Pakistan is acquiring 25 European(Italy) UAVs, with more in the pipeline.

Despite the ominous projections of the presentation, there are those who believe the Indian Air Force will always remain on top. Among them, Air Marshal Denzil Keelor, one half of the legendary Keelor brothers, who scored independent India's first air-to-air kill against Pakistan in 1965.

But for the IAF to remain ahead, and stem the swiftly dwindling capability advantage over Pakistan, it needs to make some hard decisions across the board.

Delayed decisions

Rapid inductions of new generation fighters give the Pakistan Air Force significantly enhanced fighting potential.

The air superiority fighter advantage that the IAF once enjoyed is progressively disappearing.

A determined plugging of air defence gaps with radars and missiles has starkly reduced the Indian Air Force's freedom of action in the event of war.

There are several reasons why the situation has been allowed to get so grim for the Indian Air Force.

Delays in the Tejas have forced the Air Force to grapple with stop-gap arrangements that don't quite cut it.

The Indian mother of all deals for 126 new fighters is still incomplete more than ten years after the IAF said it needed the aircraft urgently.

Finally, with an ageing Soviet fleet of aircraft (MIGs) that are troublesome and facing retirement, the Air Force looks at an even greater dip in the numbers advantage.

The message to the Defence Ministry and the government is simple. Cut your losses and plan hard for the future. If you don't, the Indian Air Force will lose the one thing you've always counted on: its combat edge.



http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story/iaf-losing-edge-over-paf/1/135843.html

this didn't age well

 

[HariPrasad-1]

BVR capability is not the only thing to be considered. With high power BVR radar, you would only spot an aircraft but you could not fire your missile until you have confirmed friend or foe. We have to compare how effective are the IAF and PAF's in their planes for this ability. Therefore, with longer range radar, longer range missile might not be the sure winner and that is also why the AWAC becomes so important.

In BVR combat, if you fire a missile from a very long distance, Chances of hitting the target is very low unless the target is in no escape zone which is a very low distance compared to from where it can be detected or fired upon.