I will continue to be critical of Ramayana, says Karunanidhi

Discussion in 'Religion & Culture' started by I-G, Jul 19, 2009.

  1. I-G

    I-G Tihar Jail Banned

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    I will continue to be critical of Ramayana, says Karunanidhi
    Chennai (PTI): Tamil Nadu Chief Minister M Karunanidhi, who had stirred up a controversy by questioning the existence of Lord Rama, on Sunday said he would continue to be critical of the Ramayana.

    "Even at the young age, I was critical of Ramayana. I will continue to be so," he said releasing "Ramayana Perunthedal" (search of Ramayana), Tamil version of a book on the epic in Kannada authored by Union Law Minister M Veerappa Moily here.

    "Why I consented to release the book is because Moily's interpretation of the Ramayana is revolutionary," he said.

    Asserting that he would continue to be a rationalist, Mr. Karunanidhi said Mr. Moily's book was totally different from the original version of Ramayana. Mr. Moily had expressed his views "fearlessly" in the form of poems, he added.

    Mr. Karunanidhi had described Lord Rama as an "imaginary character" at the height of the controversy on the Sethusamudram Shipping Canal project during 2007. He had also maintained that the Ram Sethu was not a man-made bridge, triggering protests from Hindu outfits.

    Mr. Moily said his book was not a mere narration of the Ramayana but every page conveyed a message to the reader.

    Mr. Moily is also writing another book based on Draupadi, one of the main characters in the Mahabaratha, expected to be released in a year.
    The Hindu News Update Service
     
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  3. I-G

    I-G Tihar Jail Banned

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    "Hey Ram, I will always be your detractor," says Karunanidhi
    TNN 20 July 2009, 02:51am IST


    CHENNAI: Chief Minister M Karunanidhi, who has been a long-time critic of the Ramayana and whose remarks on Lord Ram caused a controversy two years ago, and, released the Tamil translation of Union law minister Veerappa Moily's contemporary version of the epic on Sunday.

    "Being a follower of (late rationalist and social reformer) Periyar and carrying (DMK founder) Anna's ideals in my heart, I have been a critic of Ramayana till now. I will remain a critic of the Ramayana all my life,'' Karunanidhi asserted at the book launch function in the city.

    Releasing the first part of Ramayan The Great Quest', a contemporary interpretation of the epic with leftist and feminist ideals, Karunanidhi said people would have been surprised, even shocked, to see him releasing a book on Ramayana.

    He himself said Sunday's hot news was his participation in the launch of a book on the ancient epic. Karunanidhi had invited the wrath of Hindu groups across the country when he claimed that Valmiki himself had described Lord Ram as a drunkard, dismissed Ram as an imaginary character and sarcastically asked whether Ram was an engineer to have designed the Adam's bridge (Ram Sethu). This was the time when Hindu activists were protesting against the destruction of the shoals across the Palk Bay off Rameswaram to make way for the Sethusamudram Ship Canal project.

    Claiming that there was no contradiction between his criticism and his participation in the function, the DMK patriarch said, "I have been a critic of the Ramayana from my youth. And I will continue to be a critic."

    "The surprise is not my participation, but the invitation from Veerappa Moily. It is basically because of the alliance between us which began five or six years ago," he said referring to the DMK-Congress ties.

    Admitting that he had lampooned the Ramayana, and penned a spool named Bharatayana', Karunanidhi said he was happy to have released Moily's contemporary version, which he said was revolutionary, liberating, feminist and markedly different from other versions of the epic.

    The chief minister, whose government survives with Congress support, also recalled his friendship with the late GK Moopanar, whose son and Union shipping minister GK Vasan who received the book's first copy. Karunanidhi recalled that Moopanar had gifted him a book titled You can win' at the time of the unveiling the 133-foot statue of saint-poet Tiruvalluvar in Kanyakumari. "Since then, I am on a winning streak," said a beaming Karunanidhi. "The book is still with me as a symbol that no one can change it," in what could be a subtle hint that Vasan need not rake up the issue of sharing power in the state.

    Sharing similar thoughts, Union law minister Moily, clarified later at a press conference that the Congress would not betray allies who stood by it in difficult times. However, he hastened to add that the Congress could not be taken for granted. The DMK-Congress alliance would be strengthened ahead of the by-polls, he said categorically. Asked about the state Congress demand for power-sharing in Tamil Nadu, Moily said: "Karunanidhi and Congress president Sonia Gandhi will decide."

    "Hey Ram, I will always be your detractor," says Karunanidhi - India - NEWS - The Times of India
     
  4. kuku

    kuku Respected Member

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    There are child rapists, robbers, murderes that are roaming our streets, and you wish death upon a man who states his opinion(politically oriented, but opinion none the less).

    (well he is a politician, so i will assume him to be a robber and a theif but still, come on)
     
  5. K Factor

    K Factor A Concerned Indian Senior Member

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    Well mates, I am a Hindu, and give a f*** what this corrupt crazy old fart thinks. Period.
    Let him rant. He won't be changing my beliefs.
     
    kalkibhagwan likes this.
  6. Flint

    Flint Senior Member Senior Member

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    He's obviously just trying to prevent Hindu Nationalists (BJP-RSS-Sangh Parivar) from gaining ground in TN.
     
  7. K Factor

    K Factor A Concerned Indian Senior Member

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    By risking to anger the Hindus?
     
  8. Flint

    Flint Senior Member Senior Member

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    Well he's been winning elections on anti-hindu plank for decades. Have you no knowledge of dravidian politics?
     
  9. F-14

    F-14 Global Defence Moderator Senior Member

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    no why i responed was because of the fact that i just wannted to point the Bais that exist in india if for example : i say that sonia Ghandi and nehru ghandi family are political bigots then the whole seculer or rather suckuler establisment would lynch me to death
    but when some fagot saya some thing that thouchs a raw nerve within my community albite a few no one even cares to call foul

    so much for seculerism of the south

    i rest my case
     
  10. K Factor

    K Factor A Concerned Indian Senior Member

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    Indeed not. Could you point out some sources where I can do some reading into it.
    Thanks.
     
  11. Flint

    Flint Senior Member Senior Member

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    You could begin by visiting wikipedia.
     
  12. S.A.T.A

    S.A.T.A Senior Member Senior Member

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    MK's problem with being critical of Rama(or Ramayana) is that at even best of times it never quite manages to serve any venerable purpose(scholarly or otherwise)other than the narrow political agenda which has always served MK and his Dravida party agenda.

    We have to remember that there is no one Ramayana narrative,over the centuries there have been hundreds of Ramayanas told,compiled and redacted and may of them of them quite critical of the Character of Rama.However MK,for me,doesn't fall in that league.

    Mk is at times critical of Rama and at times dismisses Rama as completely imaginary,thus contradicting himself and rendering his critique rudderless.When MK is not dismissing Rama as a figment of imagination,he is busy accusing Rama,epitome of Arya,for devastating the Dravidian kingdom of Ravana.

    The funny thing is while MK often dismisses Rama and Ramayana,very rarely or never does he dismiss Ravana or the destruction of Lanka(interpreted by him as Dravidian)as a consequence of the same fiction.

    Interpreting Ravnana,Rakshasas or Lanka as Dravidian is debatable at best(or laughable if you may)moreover how does MK reconcile with the fact that Ravana was born to Brahmana Sage Visravas(thus making him half Arya in MK's book :) )
     
  13. kuku

    kuku Respected Member

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    Well that kind of sums up the definition of bigot.

    So look at the bright side, you are correct about them.
    Oh come on, calling him a fagot/faggot is uncalled for.

    I hate to be the guy who has to say this (for a politician of all the people).

    What difference has he made?

    Do the people who respected the scripture have any less respect for it now?

    Have the words written in it changed because of his views?

    As someone said, its more about politics.

    Lord Rama and Dravidian politics

    Oh forgot to add the smiley

    [​IMG]
     
  14. hit&run

    hit&run Elite Member Elite Member

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    Hinduism is not a religion but a successful story of human evolution, thanks to Lord Rama, otherwise contemporary human race was not supposed to survive due to ever growing animal kingdom and asuars.
    Critics of lord Rama should behave and try not to talk nonsense otherwise i ll take it personally.

    One should treat or recognise him as a ruler of this land at least, if not God; who has once conquered his enemy with his valour weapons, armours and army .
    Those who understand war should think of his situation and war games he played to increase the probability of struggling human race spreading proliferating across this holy land under the guidance and leadership of saints and warriors by making new towns clearing jungles, negotiating, signing treaties with yet evolutating animals and Asuars.
    The reason why pseudo scientific sceptical cant be satisfied these day on religion is due to unavailability of christian calendar, microscope and typewriter in Maharishi Valmiki's Ashram in that age.

    Google and contemporary technology is capable to give all the answer and could explain why and how you/we be born is a fiction. Story of human evolution is The only truth. ''we were there when there was no technology'' will we be here cause now we have technology cant be explained so it is a myth not Ramayana.


    हिरण्यगर्भः समवर्तताग्रे भूतस्य जातः पतिरेकासीत |
    स दाधार पर्थिवीं दयामुतेमां कस्मै देवायहविषा विधेम ||
    य आत्मदा बलदा यस्य विश्व उपासते परशिषं यस्यदेवाः |
    यस्य छायाम्र्तं यस्य मर्त्युः कस्मै देवायहविषा विधेम ||
    यः पराणतो निमिषतो महित्वैक इद राजा जगतो बभूव |
    य ईशे अस्य दविपदश्चतुष्पदः कस्मै देवाय हविषाविधेम ||
    यस्येमे हिमवन्तो महित्वा यस्य समुद्रं रसया सहाहुः |
    यस्येमाः परदिशो यस्य बाहू कस्मै देवाय हविषाविधेम ||
    येन दयौरुग्रा पर्थिवी च दर्ळ्हा येन सव सतभितं येननाकः |
    यो अन्तरिक्षे रजसो विमानः कस्मै देवायहविषा विधेम ||
    यं करन्दसी अवसा तस्तभाने अभ्यैक्षेतां मनसारेजमाने |
    यत्राधि सूर उदितो विभाति कस्मै देवायहविषा विधेम ||
    आपो ह यद बर्हतीर्विश्वमायन गर्भं दधानाजनयन्तीरग्निम |
    ततो देवानां समवर्ततासुरेकःकस्मै देवाय हविषा विधेम ||
    यश्चिदापो महिना पर्यपश्यद दक्षं दधानाजनयन्तीर्यज्ञम |
    यो देवेष्वधि देव एक आसीत कस्मैदेवाय हविषा विधेम ||
    मा नो हिंसीज्जनिता यः पर्थिव्या यो वा दिवंसत्यधर्मा जजान |
    यश्चापश्चन्द्रा बर्हतीर्जजानकस्मै देवाय हविषा विधेम ||
    परजापते न तवदेतान्यन्यो विश्वा जातानि परि ताबभूव |
    यत्कामास्ते जुहुमस्तन नो अस्तु वयं सयाम पतयोरयीणाम ||

    Translation -

    1.
    IN the beginning rose Hiranyagarbha, born Only Lord of all created beings.
    He fixed and holdeth up this earth and heaven. Which is a god like this whom shall we adore with our oblation?
    2
    Giver of vital breath, of power and vigour, he whose commandments all the Gods acknowledge -.
    The Lord of death, whose shade is life immortal. Which is a god like this whom shall we adore with our oblation?
    3
    Who by his grandeur hath become Sole Ruler of all the moving world that breathes and slumbers;
    He who is Loord of men and Lord of cattle. Which is a god like this whom shall we adore with our oblation?
    4
    His, through his might, are these snow-covered mountains, and men call sea and Rasā his possession:
    His arms are these, his are these heavenly regions. Which is a god like this whom shall we adore with our oblation?
    5
    By him the heavens are strong and earth is stedfast, by him light's realm and sky-vault are supported:
    By him the regions in mid-air were measured. Which is a god like this whom shall we adore with our oblation?
    6
    To him, supported by his help, two armies embattled look while trembling in their spirit,
    When over them the risen Sun is shining. Is there any such god whom shall we adore with our oblation?
    7
    What time the mighty waters came, containing the universal germ, producing Agni,
    Thence sprang the Gods’ one spirit into being. Which is a god like this whom shall we adore with our oblation?
    8 He in his might surveyed the floods containing productive force and generating Worship.
    He is the God of gods, and none beside him. Which is a god like this whom shall we adore with our oblation?
    9
    Neer may he harm us who is earth's Begetter, nor he whose laws are sure, the heavens' Creator,
    He who brought forth the great and lucid waters. Which is a god like this whom shall we adore with our oblation?
    10
    Prajāpati! thou only comprehendest all these created things, and none beside thee.
    Grant us our hearts' desire when we invoke thee: may we have store of riches in possession.
     
  15. S.A.T.A

    S.A.T.A Senior Member Senior Member

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    ^^

    What the hell was that supposed to mean !!

    Mythological epics, of all cultures, have had their skeptics and very rightly so.However leaning towards the other end of the spectrum has never been the answer.

    While most epics,as the analogy goes,may contain a kernel of truth at their core,but their narrative in all probability is not.If the story of Rama has any element of historicity(which arguably cannot ever be established beyond a certain element of doubt)then Rama was not out to save the human race,but just to rescue his kidnapped consort and get the hell back home.
     
  16. Flint

    Flint Senior Member Senior Member

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    kuku, of course its hypocrisy, just like all other forms of opportunistic politics.

    But IMO, just like DMK secures its political turf by denigrating the BJP's favourite hero, the BJP also does pretty much the same thing by ignoring the accomplishments of South Indian kings like the Chola empire, Vijayanagara etc. in its own propoganda.
     
  17. F-14

    F-14 Global Defence Moderator Senior Member

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    Agreed but then that does not give any Divine right to degrade Lord Ram there are many other ways to degrade your oppenents
     
  18. S.A.T.A

    S.A.T.A Senior Member Senior Member

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    The North Indian(Aryan) rhetoric is only one element(perhaps less significant)of MK's Dravida politics,the larger element is the caste politics,where they have reaped most dividend.The dynasties like Chola,pallava and others represented the Upper caste element of MK's Dravidian society and hence they still formed part of the oppressor group.

    DMK can be accused to ignoring the same as BJP.
     
  19. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Seriously my knowledge about religions is not as much. But I certainly am interested in knowing more.
    With due respects to the feelings and sentiments to all Hindus I would like to ask questions regarding Ramayan and Mahabharat to learn more.

    For one both are called an epic and mythology. So are they myths? Why are they called mythology? As I have learned, both were written by sages thousands of years ago. Was it based on some living people who were Lord Ram or Krishna, or is it the imagination of the respective writers. So what's the truth?

    If we see other faiths, they have founders whose history is well documented. Be it Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Sikhism. Is there such for Lord Ram or Krishna or other Worshipped Gods?

    I ask this purely to enhance my understanding of Hinduism and should not be taken otherwise just because of my own faith.
    If anyone feels my query is inappropriate, I will delete it with due apologies.
     
  20. Antimony

    Antimony Regular Member

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    I couldn't care less (or more accurately I don't give a rat's aZZ) of what he think of Ramayan. He should be free to believe whatever he wishes.

    However, one thing about his statement boils my blood

    Who the fcuk is he to give his consent about a book in a country which has Freedom of Speech as a fundamental right???:(:)(:)((
     
  21. F-14

    F-14 Global Defence Moderator Senior Member

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    yusufji as quoted by Smt Indra Ghandi in pernnial india that Hinduism is not an ism by which she ment that Hinduism was not founded by a perticuler Prophet or Guru but is a way of life that has been ebbing and flowing for thousands of years this is why Hinduism is called sanadana Dharma the word Hinduism it self a Corrupted form of Shindu(river Indus ) as the arabs cannot pronnonce (shi) Hindus belive in 2 basic concepts

    the Cycle of life and oneness and we also belive that the Suprem bhraman has two forms the male and female forms and what you see in our scriptures and dieties are the various manifistations of the same universal form

    this is wonderfully encapsulated in this quote " when ever the Unrightous prevail over the rightious i shall manifest myself to uphold Dharma in this world"

    the classification of the Ramayan and the Mahabarata as epic is in my viwe an basied decision due to the fact that no attempt has been made archological or otherwise(Prehasp SATAji could enlighten us to this regard) to varify them but this is just vice versa in abrahamic and other darmic religions like Buddhism

    Yusufji like you i am a novoice in the filed of religion hope you find this interesting
     

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