How would PAK-FA counter F22 in future aerial warfare

Discussion in 'Military Aviation' started by Drsomnath999, Aug 16, 2013.

  1. Drsomnath999

    Drsomnath999 lord of 32 teeth Elite Member

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    PLEASE NOTE- This thread is not another typical Versus thread .This thread consists of 2 parts

    Part I- depicts how PAK-FA would counter F22 in future aerial warfare.?

    Part II- explains what PAK-FA need to have or improve in order to counter F22 even further.?



    PART-I

    How would PAK-FA would counter F22 in future aerial warfare?


    I)OLS-50 IRST (QWIP)

    Russian OLS -50 IRST is a farcry from previous shorter wavelength Irst as it can detect IR signatures of F22 or any plane far away from previous shorter wavelength IRST


    the drawbacks of previous gen IRST were
    1)incapable of detection of IR signatures greater than 100km

    2)not reliable in adverse climate conditions

    but things would change in newer longer wavelength QWIP IRST which have somehow reduce these 2 handicaps


    one must understand no matter how powerful advanced Radar you may have there are 2 handicaps when you use it agaisnt F22

    1) no radar till date now has detected F22 from greater than 70-80 km meanwhile pak fa IRST OLS 50 can detect a F22 from greater than 80 km
    So in case of stealth targets QWIP IRST is more effective than using radar alone

    2)To use radar agaisnt F22 is a suicide in case for adversary pilots as F22 ALR -94 system can detect it's adversary
    radar whether it's AESA or PESA radar even from greater distance than it's adversary radar could detect F22 .
    Not only that it can cue it's radar guided missiles without turning on it's own AESA radar for stealth reasons

    So Pak fa OLS -50 IRST can give passive detection advantage without having the risk of being intercepted meanwhile F22 lacks
    IRST



    Air Combat: Russia?s PAK-FA versus the F-22 and F-35



    II)More weapon carriage capabilty

    PAKFA has 4 internal weapon bay in the center fuselarge & 2 side internal weapon bay capabilty

    Pak fa can carry atbest 8 air to air radar guided missile R 77 derivatives with foldable fins in the 4 weapon bays in center
    fuselarge {2 in each weapon bay} & would carry 2 short range IR guided missile in it's side weapon bay (1 in each bay)

    meanwhile F22 can carry at best 6 air to air radar guided missile in it's central fuselarge weapon bay & 2 short range IR guided missile

    SO in total PAK FA has 10 air to air weapons meanwhile F 22 has 8 air to air weapon

    why it is going to be crucial??

    ans- in BVR warfare kill probability for radar guided missile against 5th gen fighter with stealth & superior ECCM capabi;lty would be far less compare that Kill probabilty against a 4th gen fighter .So you must have more no of missiles in your kitty to survive BVR warfare .



    You can add extra missiles externally but it would compromise stealth & would give edge to your adversary.

    III)Innovative X band + L band Aesa radar combination

    No doubt F22's aesa radar is technologically more advanced than russian Aesa radar but Russians have did one innovative thing to counter F22 in radar department
    that is having L band AESA radar in it's Levcons/LERX which is known to be highly effective agaisnt stealth targets in comparision to X band aesa radar .

    Not only that PAK-FA has small X-band radar on its tail which provides true 360 degree coverage if we add every radar in PAK-FA

    Assessing the Tikhomirov NIIP L-Band Active Electronically Steered Array

    So PAK FA would have extra L band wavelength aesa radar along with X band aesa radar with 360 degree coverage in comparision to F22 having only X band aesa radar.




    IV)More manuveurabilty than F22

    The Russians can compromise on stealth but they would never compromise on manuveurability .Pak fa's aerodynamic design thanks to Levcons/LERX with 3 AXIS TVC engines gives PAKFA an edge in manuveuarabilty against F22 which has 2 AXIS TVC .

    Why is it going to be crucial in future warfare ?

    ans-{IF u omit AWACS from the scenario}
    BVR warfare's would be less effective against 5th gen fighters vs 5th gen fighter in comparision to 5th Gen vs 4th or 4.5 gen
    fighter so they would resort to Within visual range warfare at the end .Here manuveurabilty of a plane would count to survive in a WVBR dogfight scenario. Pak fa is going to be a better dog fighter than F22 .


    Not only that F22 recent upgrades have omitted the induction of HMD ,hence the Raptor will be unable to use the off-boresite and lock-on after launch features of its missiles
    Source
    F-22 helmet-display demonstration casualty of sequestration

    Without the helmet, Raptor pilots must point their missile’s seeker at the hostile aircraft to verify the missile is locked on the right target. The helmet would enable the pilot to slave the seeker to their line of sight, hence locking on by simply looking at the target, without having to turn the aircraft.
    Source
    First Raptor Supersonic AIM-9X Launch - Defense Update - Military Technology & Defense News
    But i dont think HMD going to be a serious problem for F 22 as AIM 9X block 2 has LOAL capabilty & High OFF bore sight launch
    capabilty but yes it would have done the pilot job little easiear.


    PART II



    what PAK-FA need to have or improve in order to counter F22 even further.?


    I) Stealth

    Surely F 22 is the king of stealth jets right now no doubt about it & 1st point the PAK fa critics would howl upon is that it is not stealthy as F22 & PAK fa would be detected at much greater range by F22 than Pak fa would have detected F22 by himself.

    Yes that's true in terms of stealth it is going to be very difficult for Pakfa to compete with F22 & one has to admit Pak-fa would be less stealthy than F22 no matter how much the Russians boast of .

    Right now PAKFA 's frontal radar cross section is indeed stealthy that is admitted by many experts which is the most important aspect for any stealth plane.
    But one must understand that Russians have just introduced Pakfa protypes only we have to wait for final version



    BTW there was a source which claims Pak -Fa to have RCS of 0.5 m2 ,but that is referring only for protypes not for production models .Now a person with simple common sense should understand why would a country invest billion of dollars on
    a stealth plane which has RCS 0.5 m2 meanwhile a decent 4th or 4.5 gen fighters like Typhoon , Rafale boast to have less than RCS of 1m2.

    Meanwhile Russians have achieved great strides in stealth technology
    1) Highly improved Ram coating which the russians have known to Use in MIG 29 k which have reduced the RCS of that plane 30 times
    2)Composite fan blades for engines

    3)even plasma stealth ( though controversial)

    4)improvement in composite concentration in planes








    II) RWR system comparable to F 22' ALR 94 system
    We until now dont know anything about PAK FA RWR system yet . Though some analsyst say it is going to be upgraded version of
    RWR system installed in SU 35M.But Inorder to counter F22 they must have a RWR system like F 22 ALR 94 system to passively locate air borne radar emitters & not only that but also it should cue it's air to air radar guided missiles with it without turning on it's own aesa radar for stealth reason.




    III)Missile weaponry comparable to AIM 120D & AIM9X
    the russian havent disclosed exactly what is the future weapons of PAK-fa.but from various russian airshows we have come across that there are 3 weapons system available right now

    1) RVV-BD -
    RVV-BD long-range guided missile is presented at MAKS-2011 for the first time. In comparison with its predecessor R-33E long-range guided missile the new one has improved technical performance. High aerodynamic quality of RVV-BD missile and use of dual-mode solid – fuelled motor taking into consideration its all-up weight up to 510 caliber, permit launch – range up to 200 km (R – 33E has launch range only 120 km) and ability to destroy targets with overload up to 8 g (R – 33E able to destroy only with 4 g overload) at the altitude from 15 m to 25 km.
    Russia Develops New Airborne Weapons | rostechnologiesblog

    2) RVV-SD
    medium-range radio-guided RVV-SD is believed to be an improved version of the RVV-AE (AA-12 Adder).The RVV-SD air-to-air missile features an increased maximum range of up to 110 kilometers and can engage fixed- and rotary-wing aircraft as well as cruise missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). The weapon is also suitable for intense clutter and jamming scenarios with multiple air-to-air engagements simultaneously. The RVV-SD guidance system combines the inertial navigation system (INS) and active radar seeker with data-link target correction. It is fitted with a fixed thrust solid fuel rocket motor and laser proximity fuze. The rod type warhead consists of multiple hollow charges.
    RVV-SD
    Tactical Missiles Corporation JSC

    3)RVV-MD
    The short-range air-to-air RVV-MD is a further development of the R-73 heat-seeking design.The RVV-MD is an intense jamming resistant short range air-to-air missile designed to engage fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters in close-in dogfight scenarios. This high maneuverable missile is intended for fighter aircraft and attack helicopters. RVV-MD is provided with a two-color passive IR seeker, thrust vectoring control, a fixed-thrust solid fuel motor, and radar proximity fuze or a laser proximity fuze ( RVV-MDL version). The 8 kg warhead is of rod type. The RRV-MD is a follow-up development based upon the R-73 missile and will be supplied to the latest generation of Russian fighter aircraft such as PAK FA stealth fighter.It's effective range is about 40km .
    RVV-MD
    Tactical Missiles Corporation JSC
    Russia to Field Air-Launched Missiles for T-50 by 2014 | Defense | RIA Novosti


    meanwhile if you take a close look at the american counterparts

    1) AIM 120 D
    The AIM-120D is an upgraded version of the AMRAAM with improvements in almost all areas, including 50% greater range (than the already-extended range AIM-120C-7) and better guidance over its entire flight envelope yielding an improved kill probability (Pk).The AIM-120D (P3I Phase 4, formerly known as AIM-120C-8) is a development of the AIM-120C with a two-way data link, more accurate navigation using a GPS-enhanced IMU, an expanded no-escape envelope, improved HOBS (High-Angle Off-Boresight) capability, and a 50% increase in range.

    max effective range is suppose to be 170-180km
    Source
    Google Translate



    2)AIM 9X block 1 & block2

    The AIM-9X Sidewinder is a substantial upgrade to the Sidewinder family featuring an imaging infrared focal plane array (FPA) seeker with claimed 90° off-boresight capability, compatibility with helmet-mounted displays such as the new U.S. Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System, and a totally new three-dimensional thrust-vectoring control (TVC) system providing increased turn capability over traditional control surfaces. AIM-9X demonstrated potential for a Lock-on After Launch capability,
    It's maximum effective range is suppose to be around 30-35km

    The Block II adds Lock-on After Launch capability with a datalink, so the missile can be launched first and then directed to its target afterwards by an aircraft with the proper equipment for 360 degree engagements, such as the F-35 and F-22.
    AIM-9X Block II performing better than expected


    So one can see the russians have indeed some good missiles in their kitty .But in radar guided missile department AIM 120D excels to RVV SD in range & also having two way datalink & also somewhat in seeker quality with longer no escape zone.
    THe russians must develop a radar guided missile with comparable range & able to engage High G target under intense Electronic warfare environment that of AIM 120D



    meanwhile the russians have yet to field a FPA seeker IR guided missile comparable to AIM-9x though RVVMD has range advantage & is beleived to have QWIP IR imaging seeker .


    IV)Avionics & Sensor fusion & self defence system

    the Russians have used Su 35 as test bed for deployment of their 5th gen system . The russians have integrated Common integrated processor in SU 35 like F22 , F35 & rafale.So must probably they would integrate it in PAK-FA also but it should
    be as fast & powerful like that Of F22's CIP .It is the key component of sensor fusion.

    Many things about Russian avionics to be used in PAF-FA are still in development & would take it's course along side with the
    subsequent unveiling of more no of PAK -FA protypes.

    like for example they have installed N036 X band aesa radar in PAK-FA's 3rd & 4th protype & 101-KS Ultraviolet missile approach warning system(MAWS) in 4th protype


    The Tikhomirov NIIP X-band AESA design for the PAK-FA is better understood than the core avionic suite, due to extensive disclosure by Tikhomirov NIIP at MAKS 2009.Public statements made in Russia through 2009 claim 1,500 TR module elements. Counting exposed radiating elements on video stills of the antenna indicates an estimated 1,524 TR channels, with a tolerance of several percent.NIIP have publicly cited detection range performance of 350 to 400 km (190 to 215 NMI), which assuming a Russian industry standard 2.5m2 target, is also consistent with the 2008 model for an AESA radar using ~10W rated TR modules,
    Source
    Assessing the Sukhoi PAK-FA / Sukhoi/KnAAPO T-50/I-21/Article 701 PAK-FA ????????????? ??????????? ???????? ????????? ???????
    Check the comments section about the exact T/R module value
    Tekhomirov NIIP AESA radar unveiled for PAK-FA | The DEW Line



    SOURCE
    http://www.iasa-intl.com/folders/belfast/Ruskie_Jet-New-.pdf










    APG-77 radar,

    The AN/APG-77 radar, designed for air superiority and strike operations, features a low-observable, active-aperture, electronically-scanned array that can track multiple targets in any weather. The AN/APG-77 changes frequencies more than 1,000 times per second to lower interception probability. Additionally, radar emissions can be focused in an electronic-attack capability to overload enemy sensors. It is Composed of 1500 transmit/receive modules,APG-77 has a 'typical' operating range of 193 km (120 mi) and is specified to achieve an 86% probability of intercept against a 1 m2 target at its maximum detection range using a single radar paint.It can also be used as an mini awacs platform

    But the challenge for Russians would be to field a true Low probabilty of Interception AESA Radar to defeat F22 ALR 94 system & it's jamming system




    101-KS Ultraviolet missile approach warning system(MAWS) -

    The russians have integrated 101-KS U MAWS On the fuselage sides of the t-50-4, just aft of the cockpit, two sensors are mounted to serve the 101Ks-U ultra-violet missile approach warning system (MaWs).

    together with two further 101Ks-U sensors fitted previously (on the third example) under the nose and atop the tail boom, the system provides observation of airspace all around the aircraft.

    surprisingly, the ball for the 101Ks-O (oborona, defence) active electro-optical jamming system, which on the previous aircraft was mounted on the fuselage spine just aft of the cockpit, disappeared from the t-50-4 airframe. in its place appeared on the t-50-4 a small blade antenna and two small box-shaped antennae at its sides; these are presumed to be communications aerials.

    Source
    [​IMG]

    Very little info we have right now about specifications

    AN/AAR 56 Infra-Red and Ultra-Violet MAWS (Missile Approach Warning System)

    Lockheed Martin’s AN/AAR-56 Missile Launch Detector (MLD) is a mature,
    affordable, defensive system capable of providing long-range detection and
    declaration of both airborne and surface-launched threats.
    An MLD shipset for each aircraft is comprised of six sensors, three common
    interface processing cards, and six low observable window frame assemblies

    For more refer

    http://www.lockheedmartin.com/conte...pc/missile-launch-detector-mld/mfc-mld-pc.pdf
    So the russians have integrated the similiar kind of MAWS as on F22 but whether it would be as capable as AAR 56 only time would tell in real combat action.





    V) High thrust Supercruise engine comparable to F 22's Pratt & Whitney F119 engines -

    The Russians have stated from the very beginning with the start of their PAK-FA program , that it is going to have a supercruise engine .According to Sukhoi director Mikhail Pogosyan, the 117 (AL-41F1) is a new fifth generation engine built specifically for the PAK-FA. Though the specifics of the new engine remain classified, information provided has included: increased engine thrust by 2.5 tonnes over the AL-31 engine, a reduction in engine weight by 150 kilograms (330 lb). These changes allow the aircraft to supercruise, sustaining supersonic flight speeds without using afterburners.
    It is expected that each engine will be able to independently vector its thrust upwards, downward or side to side. Vectoring one engine up with the other one down can produce a twisting force, which would enable the PAK FA to be the first fifth generation fighter with full 3-D thrust vectoring along all three aircraft axes: pitch, yaw and roll.

    According to preliminary facts, the engine will have increased thrust and fuel efficiency as compared to AL-41F1. Allegedly, the powerplant will have a thrust of about 107 kN in cruise mode and 176 kN in full afterburner mode.
    Source
    The testing of a new engine intended for PAK FA will be started in 2014 - News - Russian Aviation - RUAVIATION.COM

    The first ?-50 prototypes are powered by the 1st stage engine – Product 117. "At present detail design and full-scale design of the engine have been completed (this refers to the 2nd stage engine), special and endurance tests are in progress. The development should be completed in the second quarter of 2015", — the source said.
    "The Product 117 will be the first Russian-produced engine to have a FADEC", — the source said.
    Source
    The development of ?final? engine for T-50 will be completed in 2015 - News - Russian Aviation - RUAVIATION.COM


    The exact details about the engine Project 117 is still classified & would slowly be revealed with the subsequent unveiling of the protypes

    Meanwhile the American counterparts F22 Pratt & Whitney F119 engines have a very high thrust (156 kN) per engine.Maximum
    supercruise speed of about around {MACH 1.7- 1.8} With afterburners, it is "greater than Mach 2.0" (greater than 1,317 mph, 2,120 km/h).it has 2D TVC, with a range of ±20 degrees.


    So the russians need to have a lighter & more high thrust engine which can increase the PAK-FA supercruise speed greater than F22 .The Russian PAK-FA alraedy known to have higher Ceiling than F22 so if they can increase the supercruise speed
    a bit then it would increase the kinematic range of Russian BVRAAM even further .
    But the problem lies whether the Russians would stick with 3 axis TVC or 2D TVC stealthy nozzles like that of F22 ,which have
    added stealth advantage.My bet is on the previous one




    CONCLUSION


    Well this is the most hard part of any analysis .To be fair enough The F22 is the benchmark for any 5th gen fighter to compete .The Russians have built PAK-FA Specifically to counter F22 in future combat . The Russians wont be fighting with
    Americans one on one in reality for the fear of nuclear conflict but they would sell those planes to 3rd world countries who may not have friendly ties with USA.There it would have chance to go one on one with F22 .Still Pak-fa has a long way to go
    but it would be the main rival of F22 in the future combat irrespective of any other 5th gen fighter plane available in the market at that time.
     
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  3. drkrn

    drkrn Senior Member Senior Member

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    in the era of hi tech warfare quality matters over quantity.with ability to carry mere 2 missiles more wont enhance survival against highly integrated f22 jet

    as on date f22 is a proved one and pak-fa is maturing,giving f22 time to improve its weakness if usa invests in those areas
     
  4. lookieloo

    lookieloo Regular Member

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    Stay low so the IRST (which F-22 doesn't have) can scan against the sky. Upon sighting target, close distance as quickly as possible to take advantage of F-22's lack of HMCS/HOBS capability.

    Ironically, taking on the F-35 would probably be more problematic since it lacks those two glaring weaknesses.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2013
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  5. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    I do not agree with any of the findings of this analysis for reasons given below.
    Far too many capabilities have been assumed and given to both the fighters in this analysis. I do agree that BVR in highly sophisticated jamming and EW envoirnment will have much lower Pk. Even F-22 will be forced to come to WVR combat to finally win air battles and it is for this reason they gave it TVC. Americans are making a fool of people by this so called Stealth which can have worth only against a far inferior enemy but will have problems against even 4.5 gen fighters.
    An AESA equipped ac can't be used for home on jam missile shoot. So the EW equipment of modern 4.5 gen ac like Rafale will be able to jam the seekers of even AIM-120D and avoid the missiles, but will F-22/PAK-FA be able to hide from the SPECTRA guided Meteor or MICA? I wud like to know the the ways of jamming passive guidance.
    Long Back we had posted a very nice scenario of massed ac air combat and that to me seemed very realistic. The Lancaster Laws are very much applicable to even air combat and I agree with them. What has been overlooked by everyone while analysing this type of engagement between 5th gen ac is that even in BVR engagements in both gulf wars, fought under AWACS & JSTARS, the pilots ended up shooting own forces and this has happenned even in the most recent Red Flag excercises wherein 4.5gen and 5th gen ac with most recent tech shot down own forces. So what are we talking about so called shit of netcentric aircombat and its benefits. The fact is that you still can't replace the two eyes of a pilot in the cockpit with best of electronics. We have a thread running here which is about why gulf wars can't be used as an example for BVR combat. The size of an ac and visual stealth will always be the key to WVR engagement and if an ac has visual stealth, it has radar stealth also. To amplify it, we talk of radar reflections of bird size etc, why? A bird is not stealth shaped but bcoz of its size, it has such low radar signature. The shape and size or better called as the vetted area exposed to radar incident waves coupled with reflectivity has direct bearing on RCS and radar detectability. If an ac is small, its RCS will be low irrespective of whether it is stealth shaped or not.
    Now take a case where the ac is small and also is stealth shaped and uses passive detection only till it reaches the WVR of a stealth ac which can be picked up by a pilot visually and also visually IDed, what will happen? Based on what we have learnt till date about radars and missiles, I have been making circles and energy vectors to fight a stealth ac. My research has repeatedly shown me that, it is impossible for a stealth ac like F-22 to escape if it enters deep enough into the enemy territory. The moment it turns to get away, it will be shot down down at least 30-40 times by not only cheap third gen fighters like MIG-21s but also by SAMs like VL MICAs deployed close to the zero line which will know its presence and also have a field day shooting its hot red ass out.
    I do not wish to share much of my research on this subject but IMHO, India shud pull out of PAK-FA deal right now. It is not worth it. A stealth ac in stealth mode is restricted to just about 1.5-2 ton load till complete air superiority is established. After that stealth has no meaning. So for the first few days of war, you are investing in very high tech with lowest availability when you want highest availability of resources in those few days. Let us call off this farce called stealth. This in my opinion is another ploy to ruin russia with same story as star wars tech which ruined USSR.
     
  6. Drsomnath999

    Drsomnath999 lord of 32 teeth Elite Member

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    If u had checked the success rate of Radar guided missiles for example AIMRAAM in BVR warfare , u would have said quantity would prevail over quality in relation
    to 5th gen fighters
     
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  7. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    Simulated launches have no meaning. The attacker never gets the MWR caution and so can't manouever against the attacker or deploy countermeasures. The so called 108:0 ratio IMHO are as gud as have never happened. Fire a missile and let the defender defend, than you will know the real meaning. In a Simulator everything is digital and has no humen element in it which can turn the tables.
     
  8. Drsomnath999

    Drsomnath999 lord of 32 teeth Elite Member

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    VSTOL bro

    i am not talking about simulated kills, simulated kills are for Computer games where kids shoot planes in Computer. I am talking about real time BVR warfare kill


    BVR missile success rate through radar guided missile is not that successful like within VBR warfare missiles
    [​IMG]

    It would degrade even further in 5th gen fighter aerial combat scenario
     
  9. lookieloo

    lookieloo Regular Member

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    Well then... I guess everyone will just have to take your word for it.:rolleyes:
     
  10. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    Maximum number of radar guided missile hits are against a much inferior enemy who had no countermeasures for such missiles like RWR/MWR/ASPJ/Chaff etc. When we talk of combat between 4/4.5gen ac and 5th gen ac we must keep in mind that diff between two will only be RCS and very slight advantage in terms of tech. Lastly an intruding ac will need to turn back to return and at that moment it will not be able to hide itself from IRST and other such search equipment. The best way to tackle F-22 will be to deploy Mig-21s in groups of 8-10 with good stand off jammers in air and put behind them Mig-31s. Once the F-22 exhausts its missiles on Mig-21s, let Mig-31 chase them down and shoot them.
     
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  11. Drsomnath999

    Drsomnath999 lord of 32 teeth Elite Member

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    Haa haa

    Well now Mig 21 would be used as a scape goat to kill F22

    Now Average American would commit sucide in shame [​IMG]
     
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  12. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    This is the best way to deal with F-22...

     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  13. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    RVV-SD, MD, BD etc are not PAKFA weapons. They are export weapons for existing aircraft like Mig-29 and Su-27/30. The non-export versions of the same will be used on VVS Su-35S, Mig-29SMT, Su-34 and Su-30SM.

    There is not even a picture out or any information of any sort which reveals PAKFA's weapons. Only one or two names have been revealed.
     
  14. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    Even before this video became public, it was sent to me for my comments. My comments on this video have been accepted even by the PR deptt of Dassault. I deciphered the entire combat of this video from the HUD video.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
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  15. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Are these comments open source info or...?
     
  16. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    No, I got it from a jurno from france who wanted my comments on this. actually it is a series of five situations.
     
  17. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    I meant if you can share what you told the French journo on this forum if you are allowed to?
     
  18. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    I will check with him, If he allows, I will post them here.
     
  19. Drsomnath999

    Drsomnath999 lord of 32 teeth Elite Member

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    Actually

    that Rafale vs F22 video was known by selected members .I got that video long before the video was public

    MARC SAMPAIX (dare2) a french member had posted the video for me in facebook .But he had promised me not to disclose it any forum .

    even halloweene knows it

    CHEERS
     
  20. Drsomnath999

    Drsomnath999 lord of 32 teeth Elite Member

    Joined:
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    Location:
    BHUBANESHWAR
    Yes

    RVV-SD, MD, BD etc are not PAKFA weapons yet & it is true they are for export versions .

    But what i want to convey that these are latest missiles shown by the russians .

    Russians by end of 2014 would show their true PAK-FA weapons . But RVV-MD is firm contender to be installed in PAK-FA rest missiles skeptical

    CHEERS
     
  21. sydsnyper

    sydsnyper Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2013
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    Location:
    Mumbai

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