How to improve DRDO efficiency

[Goodperson]

you can pass that wise counsel to USAF, USN & US ARMY. they may also want to sit in LM, BOEING, NORTHROP GRUMMAN & RAYTHEON.

hmmm.. There should not be any grouse here. failure rate in DRDO is way too high, Army was forced to induct 124 Arjun tanks and IAF is forced to accept few LCA's.

DRDO is nowhere in the league with LM, BOEING, NORTHROP GRUMMAN & RAYTHEON. It has no competitor in India and has only one reluctant customer i.e defense force. Due to failure of DRDO defence forces are forced to look outside.

True we need to be self sufficient but DRDO is kinda of white elephant which has to be made accountable.

 

[zolpidam]

i beg to differ. is the drdo so inefficient that we solve their problems? people need to know due to the global denial regime india has always suffered. still they were wise enough not to reverse engineer. that has paid rich dividends. now everyone is falling over backwards to give the same. india due to its capital investment limitations could not do the kind of investments the defence sector needed. now that has changed. india is on the northward journey economically, technologically due to its farsighted approach in putting its investments in the education sector. IITs are just but one example. now all that is bearing fruit. that is how you see drdo setting standards in many fields. take a look at what drdo has done so far-
Defence Research and Development

I can agree with you about DRDO . but here we want DRDO to be best not good . In terms of making DRDO best we this is true that we have to make some reformation in existing structure

 

[ppgj]

that is what I meant, are they participating in R&D with DRDO? I really doubt that.

they are right now just executing projects based on drdo r&d. will take a while, i guess, for them to take the plunge considering they are private firms looking for fast buck whereas the defence r&d to execution is a long haul.

 

[ppgj]

Army was forced to induct 124 Arjun tanks

then why don't IA go for trials with T-90 which they been promising for a long time now? why they keep backing off?

IAF is forced to accept few LCA's.

prove it.

DRDO is nowhere in the league with LM, BOEING, NORTHROP GRUMMAN & RAYTHEON. It has no competitor in India and has only one reluctant customer i.e defense force. Due to failure of DRDO defence forces are forced to look outside.

i never claimed it. under the circumstances india is/was in, as you may see in my post, they have done wonders. as for your "reluctant customer" ask IN.

True we need to be self sufficient but DRDO is kinda of white elephant which has to be made accountable.

1st part agreed. 2nd part is your white wash.

 

[ppgj]

I can agree with you about DRDO . but here we want DRDO to be best not good .

sir, the best can happen when they are properly supported by the end users. it is evolution.

In terms of making DRDO best we this is true that we have to make some reformation in existing structure

not against it if there is need. but just to thrash drdo as inefficient is plain wrong.

 

[zolpidam]

sir, the best can happen when they are properly supported by the end users. it is evolution.
principal or evolution is survival of the fittest. If they will make best these will be supported by end users and will evolute in more powerful way.

 

[zolpidam]

not against it if there is need. but just to thrash drdo as inefficient is plain wrong.[/QUOTE]
No we are not saying to thrash it , we dont want to listen failure word . and for this if we have to take some step in term of doing whatever , we have to .

 

[ppgj]

principal or evolution is survival of the fittest. If they will make best these will be supported by end users and will evolute in more powerful way.

agreed. but who will give that opportunity? how do you think LM, BOEING, THALES became successful? not 'cos they came out with the best in one go but inspite of their failures(which is normal) they were supported by their respective countries.

No we are not saying to thrash it , we dont want to listen failure word . and for this if we have to take some step in term of doing whatever , we have to .

failure is part of every process. that is how systems evolve and become potent in the end. there is no shortcut to success.

 

[Martian]

drdo is a conglomerate of some 50+ labs. each concentrates on a specific need. it is not like one or two doing 100s of things.
but yes if private firms want to independantly challenge drdo with their own R&D that would do good.

I think the number of labs should be reduced and consolidated. By reducing the number of areas under R&D and increasing the funding for each weapon technology, the increased focus should lead to greater DRDO efficiency. The consolidation of labs performing related R&D should lead to synergy from a clustering effect.

"In all, India plans to have 310 T-90S and 1,330 T-90M tanks in service by 2020.[20]" See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-90#India

I believe that India is spending too much money buying foreign weaponry, instead of funding indigenous R&D. It is one thing to buy 500 foreign MBTs for self-defense; but 1,330 tanks? With the extra couple of billion dollars saved from not purchasing 830 more MBTs (i.e. 1330-500), DRDO could have really used the money to make significant advancements.

 

[zolpidam]

agreed. but who will give that opportunity? how do you think LM, BOEING, THALES became successful? not 'cos they came out with the best in one go but inspite of their failures(which is normal) they were supported by their respective countries.


failure is part of every process. that is how systems evolve and become potent in the end. there is no shortcut to success.

Agree with you definitely if some thing better can happen this way than we should go. and also should not close other option .

 

[ppgj]

I think the number of labs should be reduced and consolidated. By reducing the number of areas under R&D and increasing the funding for each weapon technology, the increased focus should lead to greater DRDO efficiency. The consolidation of labs performing related R&D should lead to synergy from a clustering effect.

drdo is also involved with research on life sciences. many civil agencies too have benefitted from their r&d. though they have 50+ labs they are all individually involved in specifics. so reducing the number may not help.

"In all, India plans to have 310 T-90S and 1,330 T-90M tanks in service by 2020.[20]" See T-90 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I believe that India is spending too much money buying foreign weaponry, instead of funding indigenous R&D. It is one thing to buy 500 foreign MBTs for self-defense; but 1,330 tanks? With the extra couple of billion dollars saved from not purchasing 830 more MBTs (i.e. 1330-500), DRDO could have really used the money to make significant advancements.

agreed.

 

[zolpidam]

I think the number of labs should be reduced and consolidated. By reducing the number of areas under R&D and increasing the funding for each weapon technology, the increased focus should lead to greater DRDO efficiency. The consolidation of labs performing related R&D should lead to synergy from a clustering effect.

"In all, India plans to have 310 T-90S and 1,330 T-90M tanks in service by 2020.[20]" See T-90 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I believe that India is spending too much money buying foreign weaponry, instead of funding indigenous R&D. It is one thing to buy 500 foreign MBTs for self-defense; but 1,330 tanks? With the extra couple of billion dollars saved from not purchasing 830 more MBTs (i.e. 1330-500), DRDO could have really used the money to make significant advancements.

I think there is no need to reduced the lab and money is not that much problem . I think problem is with our culture , we don't have so much good back ground about R&D . We always want to use ready made stuff.What ever sector we can take in our country every where we are lacking in R&D . Govt has to promote this thing even to younger generation so that we can make it part of our system.

 

[Goodperson]

then why don't IA go for trials with T-90 which they been promising for a long time now? why they keep backing off?

prove it.

Proof very apparent read below.


The Army had placed its Rs.17.60 billion order for the tanks in March 2000 Link


Results of trial- Tell me why would someone buy it then ?????????

July 2005 - During the summer trials in 2005, it was reported that the Arjun suffered major problems with its main gun sight, suspension system, and fire control system. Moreover, engine failures occurred commonly in temperatures averaging 55-60 degrees Celsius
Result fail Link

Summer 2006- the 2006 army trial results showed that "the decade-old problems of overheating persist" and that "tank’s main subsystems, the fire control system (FCS) and integrated gunner’s main sight, which includes a thermal imager and laser range-finder, are rendered erratic and useless by the Arjun’s abnormally high peak internal temperature, which moves well beyond 55 degrees Celsius. This is in testimony to the Parliamentary committee.
Result - Failure - Link

September 2007 winter trials - the Indian army deemed Arjun's performance unsatisfactory, including at least four engine failures. Result Fail - Link

DRDO claimed sabotage Link

2008 summer trials- Auxiliary User Cum reliability trials (AUCRT) of the Arjun MBT was conducted from September 2007 to summer of 2008. In a report to the Parliamentary standing committee the Indian army deemed Arjun's performance unsatisfactory, including four engine failures within only 1000 kilometers. Link
The Army wrote in the report that during the "accelerated user-cum-reliability trials" in 2008, the Arjun "was found to have failure of power packs, low accuracy and consistency, failure of hydropneumatic suspension units, shearing of top rollers and chipping of gun barrels". Link

Sabotage was suspected, but the Army rejected that any sabotage happened during the trials.DRDO has installed a black box-like instrument in the indigenous main battle tank (MBT) Arjun, under development for nearly 36 years, following attempts to "sabotage" its engine. The instrument was installed after the Indian Army termed the September 2007 winter trials of the Arjun tank a "failure".Attempts to sabotage the trials of the Arjun tank have failed after the black box was installed, said authorities

Result - ?? Link1 Link 2

i never claimed it. under the circumstances india is/was in, as you may see in my post, they have done wonders. as for your "reluctant customer" ask IN.


1st part agreed. 2nd part is your white wash.

There is no whitewash here.

 

[Goodperson]

DRDO was not left with no face saving option the project had to be closed. Army finally accepted the Arjun tank later it was only after efforts by Defence minister AK anthony.
There is lot of politics involved here.

Army takes a U-turn on Arjun tank

Tell me now why did not the numbers increased after acceptence ?
Now this is all whitewash or brownwash what ever you call.

 

[ppgj]

Proof very apparent read below.


The Army had placed its Rs.17.60 billion order for the tanks in March 2000 Link


Results of trial- Tell me why would someone buy it then ?????????

July 2005 - During the summer trials in 2005, it was reported that the Arjun suffered major problems with its main gun sight, suspension system, and fire control system. Moreover, engine failures occurred commonly in temperatures averaging 55-60 degrees Celsius
Result fail Link

Summer 2006- the 2006 army trial results showed that "the decade-old problems of overheating persist" and that "tank’s main subsystems, the fire control system (FCS) and integrated gunner’s main sight, which includes a thermal imager and laser range-finder, are rendered erratic and useless by the Arjun’s abnormally high peak internal temperature, which moves well beyond 55 degrees Celsius. This is in testimony to the Parliamentary committee.
Result - Failure - Link

September 2007 winter trials - the Indian army deemed Arjun's performance unsatisfactory, including at least four engine failures. Result Fail - Link

DRDO claimed sabotage Link

2008 summer trials- Auxiliary User Cum reliability trials (AUCRT) of the Arjun MBT was conducted from September 2007 to summer of 2008. In a report to the Parliamentary standing committee the Indian army deemed Arjun's performance unsatisfactory, including four engine failures within only 1000 kilometers. Link
The Army wrote in the report that during the "accelerated user-cum-reliability trials" in 2008, the Arjun "was found to have failure of power packs, low accuracy and consistency, failure of hydropneumatic suspension units, shearing of top rollers and chipping of gun barrels". Link

Sabotage was suspected, but the Army rejected that any sabotage happened during the trials.DRDO has installed a black box-like instrument in the indigenous main battle tank (MBT) Arjun, under development for nearly 36 years, following attempts to "sabotage" its engine. The instrument was installed after the Indian Army termed the September 2007 winter trials of the Arjun tank a "failure".Attempts to sabotage the trials of the Arjun tank have failed after the black box was installed, said authorities

Result - ?? Link1 Link 2



There is no whitewash here.

the problems you mention did occur but were set right long back. that is how even the present army chief accepted the superiority of arjun and inducted 124 of them. will post army chief link later.
in the mean time check your own "link2" you provided. there was sabotage. even rao inderjit singh, the former mos, defence alluded to that. explains who did that and why army is backing off from the trial they only proposed even now.

 

[Goodperson]

the problems you mention did occur but were set right long back. that is how even the present army chief accepted the superiority of arjun and inducted 124 of them. will post army chief link later.
in the mean time check your own "link2" you provided. there was sabotage. even rao inderjit singh, the former mos, defence alluded to that. explains who did that and why army is backing off from the trial they only proposed even now.

Read the complete post myfriend. The dates are recent 2005, 2007, 2008, And how could there be sabotage as claimed by DRDO ? It only installed blackboxes.

 

[ppgj]

Read the complete post myfriend. The dates are recent 2005, 2007, 2008, And how could there be sabotage as claimed by DRDO ? It only installed blackboxes.

yes to stop the army from sabotaging the trials. that is why the black box were installed. you will know then who is sabotaging and backing off.
in the mean time go thor' this too-
Indian Army finds no major defects with Arjun Tank during Ex Ashvamegh | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion - Aviation, Military, Commodity, Energy, Transportation, Conflict, Environment, Intelligence, Internal Security
Indian Army looses battle against Arjun Tank, but, will there be Arjun Mark-2? | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion - Aviation, Military, Commodity, Energy, Transportation, Conflict, Environment, Intelligence, Internal Sec
Government monitoring the Arjun Tank trials | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion - Aviation, Military, Commodity, Energy, Transportation, Conflict, Environment, Intelligence, Internal Security
43rd Armour Regiment and ex-officer’s satisfied with Arjun Tank | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion - Aviation, Military, Commodity, Energy, Transportation, Conflict, Environment, Intelligence, Internal Security
DRDO?s Arjun Tank scores bull?s eye on Indian Army egos | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion - Aviation, Military, Commodity, Energy, Transportation, Conflict, Environment, Intelligence, Internal Security
Dissimilar Combat: Arjun MBT Vs T-90S specs | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion - Aviation, Military, Commodity, Energy, Transportation, Conflict, Environment, Intelligence, Internal Security

 

[Goodperson]

yes to stop the army from sabotaging the trials. that is why the black box were installed. you will know then who is sabotaging and backing off.
in the mean time go thor' this too-
Indian Army finds no major defects with Arjun Tank during Ex Ashvamegh | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion - Aviation, Military, Commodity, Energy, Transportation, Conflict, Environment, Intelligence, Internal Security
Indian Army looses battle against Arjun Tank, but, will there be Arjun Mark-2? | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion - Aviation, Military, Commodity, Energy, Transportation, Conflict, Environment, Intelligence, Internal Sec
Government monitoring the Arjun Tank trials | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion - Aviation, Military, Commodity, Energy, Transportation, Conflict, Environment, Intelligence, Internal Security
43rd Armour Regiment and ex-officer’s satisfied with Arjun Tank | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion - Aviation, Military, Commodity, Energy, Transportation, Conflict, Environment, Intelligence, Internal Security
DRDO?s Arjun Tank scores bull?s eye on Indian Army egos | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion - Aviation, Military, Commodity, Energy, Transportation, Conflict, Environment, Intelligence, Internal Security
Dissimilar Combat: Arjun MBT Vs T-90S specs | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion - Aviation, Military, Commodity, Energy, Transportation, Conflict, Environment, Intelligence, Internal Security

How can defense minister a politician influence Army chief Deepak Kapoor ?
DRDO being a public sector was supported by government. I can give many many reports even government are CAG was critical about DRDO's state of affairs and for Arjun and LCA. All the problems cannot get resolved suddenly by meetings.

What went wrong with LCA, Arjun Tank, Akash missile
Tuesday , Mar 03, 2009 at 0020 hrs

Poor planning, over-optimistic timelines and a lack of coordination with the Armed Forces led to cost and time overruns of major defence projects taken up by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), says the first external review of the research body.

The P Rama Rao committee, which was formed to revamp the organisation, has said that the major cause for delays and failures of indigenous defence products is DRDO’s tendency to over-estimate its capabilities. The inability of the research body to involve the Armed Forces in developmental projects

from the start has been identified as a major area of concern.

In all of the major projects reviewed by the committee — the Light Combat Aircraft, the Arjun Tank, Kaveri engine and the Akash Surface to Air Missile — it cracked down on the DRDO for the same problems of “over-optimism” and poor planning.

 

[ppgj]

How can defense minister a politician influence Army chief Deepak Kapoor ?

nobody influenced the army chief. you think MOD is ready to compromise national security for pushing thro' local equipment?

DRDO being a public sector was supported by government. I can give many many reports even government are CAG was critical about DRDO's state of affairs and for Arjun and LCA. All the problems cannot get resolved suddenly by meetings.

irrespective whether it is drdo or some foreign equipment, they go thro' trials. they are not pushed thro'. arjun infact had a foreign audit in its last trials who agreed it is far superior and equal to any in its class.

In all of the major projects reviewed by the committee — the Light Combat Aircraft, the Arjun Tank, Kaveri engine and the Akash Surface to Air Missile — it cracked down on the DRDO for the same problems of “over-optimism” and poor planning.

i am not claiming everything drdo does is the best. sometimes they may be better as in arjun, sometimes they may be not. forces evaluate and proceed. btw akash is already operational. kaveri is a problem and i admit that.

 

[Goodperson]

Army IAF and INF should not take equipment with problems there should not be any compromise. Hence I said their representative should be in the DRDO board. My original argument.