How to counter Fifth Generation Stealth fighters?

Discussion in 'Military Aviation' started by W.G.Ewald, Mar 26, 2012.

  1. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    Fighters, Missiles For Countering Stealth

    Fighters, Missiles For Countering Stealth | AVIATION WEEK
     
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  3. agentperry

    agentperry Senior Member Senior Member

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    i heard there is a russian helicopter in development that can fire missiles to bring down aircrafts. it will be stealth helicopter.
     
  4. EzioAltaïr

    EzioAltaïr Regular Member

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    As we all know, all the Fifth Generation Fighters in development are stealth equipped, and as their developers claim, they will be extremely hard for a radar to spot. So assume if two countries with stealth aircraft fight in the future, like India and China, or China and U.S.A., or U.S.A.how is one gonna counter the other's stealth capabilities?
     
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  5. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    Stealth technology and the counter-stealth response - Airforce Technology

    The evolution of anti-stealth detection
     
  6. EzioAltaïr

    EzioAltaïr Regular Member

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  7. LurkerBaba

    LurkerBaba Staff Administrator

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    China has methods to deal with stealth aircraft

    On the morning of Sept. 15, the first "Military Camp Opening Day" activity of Wuhan was held in the Wuhan Air Force Command Center and the military exhibited to residents hundreds of pieces of air force equipment in active service. When a resident asked whether the People's Liberation Army has methods to deal with stealth aircraft, the instructor of the activity from the military said that if enemy stealth aircraft dare to invade China's territorial air space, they have ways to shoot them down.

    The political commissar of the Wuhan Air Force Command Center Major General Kang Zizhong said that the "Military Camp Opening Day" activity will allow residents to closely experience the latest scientific development achievements of China's armed forces and effectively strengthen common people's sense of national defense.

    At the site of the activity, the Wuhan Air Force Command Center exhibited three anti-aircraft missile systems to residents.

    A military expert said that China has made great progress in constructing the integrated modern anti-aircraft system, realized the transition from the second-generation fighter planes to third-generation fighter planes, and China's advanced air early warning planes, anti-aircraft missiles and detecting and commanding equipment of various kinds have been put into service in corps. It has taken China's anti-aircraft capacity to a new level. China's armed forces are able to eliminate any incoming enemy from the air.
    A resident asked, "Are our armed forces capable of shooting down stealth planes like the B-2, F-22 and F-35 planes of the United States? Is the Red Flag-9 missile capable of doing it?

    The instructor of the activity Captain Yang Wen said that he could not answer the question directly and all he could say was that China already carried out military drills taking "shooting down stealth planes, cruise missiles and armed helicopters; anti-precision strikes, anti-electronic interference and anti-reconnaissance" as contents at the end of 20th century. Dealing with stealth weapons, such as stealth planes and missiles, is a large systematic project. "In order to successfully shoot down stealth planes, finding them beforehand is the key."

    Yang said that as long as China could find stealth planes, China could shoot them down. In past military drills, China already shot down such air targets as stealth planes and missiles many times. The armed forces of China have methods to deal with stealth planes.

    http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90786/7954462.html
     
  8. ersakthivel

    ersakthivel Senior Member Senior Member

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    So what is the point of fielding 5th gen inefficient stealths?If china can track and shoot them ,pretty much everyone can.Isn't it?
    Then the whole concept of stealth is not cutting edge anymore?
    Are only the chinese capable of tracking down and shooting the stealths?While indians and others can't?

    So future stealths must be aerodynamically much more efficient than 4th gens planes as well as having stealth.
    having stealth alone as USP ,and poorer engine and avionics tech means you cannot be sure of your superiority over much more efficient 4th gens.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2012
  9. bengalraider

    bengalraider DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    One of the easiest ways that is currently being discussed/developed in a very nascent stage is using cellphone/television/any other signals . simply put the idea is to saturate the airspace over and around any target of military value with random signals these then create a net through which every aircraft must fly , stealth or not. whenever any aircraft flies through such a saturated zone there is a hole in the net of signals this hole can then be targeted. the hardware is not too difficult from regular radars and is currently in developmental testing the software is far more trickier and that is in development as well. such a system is particularly effective over a city where the airwaves are already saturated.

    'Passive radar' could render stealth planes obsolete (Wired UK)
     
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  10. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    5G aircraft is not 100% invisible to radar. Yes the size of radar signature shrinks, with network of radar you can do something like this

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    This method is called triangulation. It works only in specific times when the aircraft is within your territory. The most important parameter for this to work is that the enemy aircraft MUST be emitting signals.

    This has nothing to do with radar.
     
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  12. SajeevJino

    SajeevJino Long walk Elite Member

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    I think you are misunderstand about Comanche from Area 51
     
  13. ersakthivel

    ersakthivel Senior Member Senior Member

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    A small correction reflecting the radar waves ,not emitting signals.
     
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  14. agentperry

    agentperry Senior Member Senior Member

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    no there was newspaper reporting
     
  15. ersakthivel

    ersakthivel Senior Member Senior Member

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    passive detection method is a fool proof technique, no countermeasures can be deployed against that.because in war time there will be so many radars emitting airbourne,ground and from ew crafts and stealth UCAVS .And there will be mutiple recievers listening.

    The listeners are passive.So no 5th gen aircraft can do stealthy sead missions as once it enters enemy airspace it will be illuminated by multiple radars and it's reflections will be picked up by multiple sources.

    The ram coating can absorb only a small amount of radiation and ,beyond that it will overheat and start emitting sizable IR signature another source of detection.
    Already L ,VHF radars will pinpoint the position of 5th gen x band stealths within enough accuracy to direct other radar sources and listeners to track the 5th gens.

    So 5th gen fighters have to be aerodynamically efficient as well to be effective.Infact once counter measures are perfected it will be at the same level of low rcs 4th gens.

    Strategically postined and calibarated radars and receivers will detect 5th gens all the time with triangulation algorithms.
    So an 5th gen is stealth only in it's home airspace in future.

    As the 5th gens will give their true RCS to VHF and L band radars.

    Jamming all radars simultaneously isa pipe dream as well.
     
  16. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    The Cassidian method is theoretical BS.

    By the time they implement it my great, great, great grand kids will be retiring and I will be over 500 years old.

    From the article,
    There will be so much interference during wartime that cell phone signals will not even survive a few meters of transmission. Heck wireless networks fail for hours during a little crisis, like a terrorist attack, let alone something like a major war where your comm networks will be directly targeted.

    In such an environment, Cassidian plans on "using" cellphone signals. Waah! That too, for what, "detecting" F-22 and F-35.

    Looks like some department wants extra money.
     
  17. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    How best to counter 5th gen fighters? How else but with another 5th gen fighter...
     
  18. Shirman

    Shirman Regular Member

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    It seems the Japanese have come up with unique concept to counter J20 n J31 stealth fighters n entire things Chinese PLAAF could throw at them n Koreans......:thumb:

    They r basically upgrading their F-15s n F-2s with AESA tipped Ramjet missile seekers n air launched spotter drones....Well if American Raytheon company plans to send micro satellites in space so their EW aerial assets JSTARS, U.S. airforce's E-3 Sentrys n U.S. navy's E-2D Hawkeyes along with coalition n U.S. allies AEW&cs get a complete virtual image of Aerial Battlefield in there Cockpits which totally makes enemy's PAKFA, J-31s n J-20 obsolete why cant Japanese sensor fuse their F-15s with Fighter planes spitting missiles which has AESA radar in their seekers....Talk about weaponising Nano-technology at its optimum best....

    heres the link :- 掲示板 インターネット日韓文化交流 - KJCLUB - KJLAND

    It was also discussed in MilPhotos forums.....heres the link :- Japan Upgrades Air-to-Air
     
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  19. lookieloo

    lookieloo Regular Member

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    Destroy them on the ground.
     
  20. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Lot of theory, but nothing practical.

    For eg:
    In tests in the US, E-3C, E-2C and even F-15C/E failed in detecting the F-22 even though varied bands were used in the S, L, VHF/UHF and X bands. This established the fact that current and planned radars of the time were not capable of detecting the F-22.

    In time radars will be capable of detecting F-22/PAKFA etc.

    But detection is fine. Detection is just one of the many parameters that need to be satisfied before engaging an aircraft.

    But how will the engagement be carried out? PAKFA/F-22 have kinematic superiority over any AWACS along with carrying high speed long range BVR missiles. As long as the AWACS is not stealthy, it can be detected and engaged from the same maximum range that it is capable of detecting the PAKFA/F-22.

    F-15 or any other 4th gen aircraft won't survive until a radar is made for the F-22 to be obsolete. Meaning a radar capable of detecting and engaging the F-22 is at least 15-20 years away. Which means, all 4th gen systems today will be phased out by then from most of the top air forces and navies. The ones that remain (like Rafale/EF etc) will be nearing the end of their service life and will end up with secondary duties complementing the 5th gen fighters.

    So the only aircraft which can receive upgrades capable of detecting and engaging F-22 class aircraft would be another 5th gen fighter. At the same time, newer more stealthy heavy UCAVs will be developed by the 2040 period. Perhaps even new propulsion systems.

    As of today, it is simple. You want to kill a 5th gen aircraft, you need another 5th gen aircraft.

    Also, I don't see the point of missiles seekers carrying AESA systems, it simply doesn't make sense. The module count will be too low and interference will be too high. On a 150-200mm array, how many T/R modules do you expect to carry? This will also reduce the angle at which it can detect and seek targets, since AESA has greater interference than regular slotted arrays at wide angles.
     
  21. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    Satellites will join in to detect 5th gen fighters, well as soon as PAKFA and J20 come into service. The same can be said on how to counter F-22 and F-35 though. But detecting is one thing targeting is another.
     
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