How Nehru, Menon Conspired Against Army Chief Thimayya

Discussion in 'Military History' started by sorcerer, Feb 14, 2016.

  1. sorcerer

    sorcerer Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2013
    Messages:
    6,203
    Likes Received:
    5,114
    Location:
    India
    How Nehru, Menon Conspired Against Army Chief Thimayya

    [​IMG]
    Lt Gen Kodendera Subayya Thimayya, Chief of the Army Staff was elevated to the substantive rank of a General. Nehru, Defence Minister VK Krishna Menon and Majithia Deputy Defence Minister are seen in this file photo with General Kodendera Subayya Thimayya at the function.
    The Indian army experienced its worst ever defeat during the Indo-China conflict of 1962. This excerpt from Shiv Kunal Verma’s thoroughly researched book shows how Nehru and Krishna Menon conspired to discredit General Thimayya, setting in motion a chain of events that contributed to India’s rout in the Himalayas.

    The political manoeuvring by Gandhi in 1938 to sideline Subhas Chandra Bose in the presidential race of the Congress Party virtually handed Nehru the prime ministership of independent India. Bose was perhaps the only Indian political leader who understood the significance of armed power as an instrument of state policy while being aware of modern politics. With Bose’s exit and Sardar Patel’s death in 1950, there was no one who could provide the necessary inspiration for the reconstruction of an army (that had so far served British interests) into an integrated military instrument that could identify potential threats and tackle them militarily.

    Nehru, unlike Bose and Patel, veered away from building military power. Although, when cornered, he was not averse to using it—as in the case of Kashmir in 1947-48 and then Goa in 1961—for the most part, he talked disarmament, non-alignment and Panchsheel.

    In a speech delivered at the Kerala Provisional Conference in 1928, Nehru had spelt out his international assessments: ‘No danger threatens India from any direction; and even if there is any danger we shall cope with it.’ :facepalm:

    No surprise then that when the first Commander-in-Chief of the Indian Army, General Sir Rob Lockhart, went to Nehru with a formal defence paper that needed a policy directive from the prime minister, Nehru had exclaimed: ‘Rubbish! Total rubbish! We don’t need a defence policy. Our policy is ahimsa (non-violence). We foresee no military threats.:crazy: As far as I am concerned you can scrap the army—the police are good enough to meet our security needs.’ It’s a different matter that Nehru had to eat his words by the end of October 1947 itself when the tribal hordes invaded Kashmir.


    Perhaps Nehru could not have reacted militarily when China invaded Tibet in 1950, but since then he had had more than ten years to prepare, from the time General Cariappa had warned him that the army did not have the capability to face the Chinese. Despite repeated warnings from the army and the various committees, Nehru did very little to address the shortcomings of the army.


    …Nehru was never comfortable with the armed forces. …his political indoctrination had … instilled in him a desire to downgrade India’s officer cadre rather than tap their leadership potential and assimilate them into the machinery of government. This in turn created a vacuum in the decision-making chain, into which the civil servants stepped. …taking important military decisions that they were not equipped to handle. At a personal level, Nehru was not impressed with most of senior officers and found them shallow, posturing caricatures, generally aping the British in their mannerisms and who had taken no interest in the freedom movement.

    To make matters worse, Nehru, along with other politicians, began to develop a deep-seated paranoia about the army. Many other countries that had become independent after World War II fell prey to military coups (the most pertinent example being Pakistan)….

    As he drove from South Block to Teen Murti, Thimayya was acutely aware of the prime minister’s deep distrust of the military. Even before he took over from General S. M. Shrinagesh, Thimayya had made no bones about the fact that he was deeply distressed by the continuous neglect of the army. Publicly Nehru was seen to be fond of Timmy; however, behind his back, the prime minister adopted tactics that clearly indicated that he viewed Thimayya as a rival who could challenge his position as the undisputed head of the Indian Union. Given the general’s track record in World War II—Thimayya had been the first and only Indian officer to command a fighting brigade in the Arakan where he had been awarded the Distinguished Service Order (DSO)—and the role played by him in the Jammu and Kashmir Operations, Nehru knew he could not browbeat him.

    Timmy was universally respected. …The announcement of his impending appointment had led to an editorial comment in the Times of India: ‘A thrill has just passed through the Army. The signal has gone out that Timmy is on.’ In the meantime, just twenty days before Thimayya took charge of the army, Nehru had replaced the defence minister, Kailash Nath Katju, with Vengalil Krishnan Krishna Menon.

    Nehru was waiting for Thimayya and for the first time, the normally reticent Timmy exchanged angry words with the prime minister. He told Nehru that his arbitrary decision of making NEFA (North East Frontier Agency now called Arunachal Pradesh) the responsibility of the army, made public in Parliament, was preposterous and completely against Indian interests. Thimayya felt that Nehru had completely compromised the army.

    Without providing the additional resources required, handing over the borders to the army was a meaningless gesture; this would allow the Chinese the opportunity to claim that the Indians were the aggressors, for they always went to great pains to describe their own troops as border guards. Thimayya asked Nehru to find a way out of the mess in the next couple of weeks...

    Nehru and Krishna Menon knew that the prime minister was in serious trouble. He had got away with the admission in Parliament earlier in the day only because the triple whammy—ongoing clashes on the border, the construction of National Highway G219 across the Aksai Chin and the Khenzemane and Longju incidents—had come as a shock to the members of the House. …Thimayya wanted Nehru to undo the mistake; but should the prime minister formally withdraw his statement about deploying the army and revert to the previous arrangement, he would be committing political hara-kiri. The threat of Thimayya taking over the reins of government, at least in Nehru’s mind, was very real.

    Politics is full of subterfuge, and survival… Not only did the Nehru-Menon team now have to survive, they had to neutralize Thimayya. Three days later, Krishna Menon sent for Thimayya in ‘a highly excited state of mind’ and vented his anger at the chief for having approached the prime minister directly, suggesting instead that the matter should have been resolved at his level. Threatening Thimayya of ‘possible political repercussions if the matter became public’ Krishna Menon ended the meeting. A seething Thimayya… promptly sent in his resignation letter.

    The letter, which was received by Teen Murti on the afternoon of 31 August, was put up to Nehru who promptly sent for Thimayya in the afternoon. … After a long conversation in which the prime minister persuaded the army chief to withdraw his resignation letter in the larger interest of the nation, especially since the problem with the Chinese had flared up, the matter of the resignation was deemed closed.

    However, after Thimayya’s departure, news of his resignation was deliberately leaked to the media while the subsequent rescinding of the letter was held back. … Thimayya resignation made banner headlines the next morning. …


    On 2 September 1959, the prime minister once again rose in Parliament to make a statement. He told the Lok Sabha that he had persuaded the chief to withdraw his resignation. He then went on to speak about the supremacy of the civilian authority over the military and then, had surprisingly, proceeded to castigate Thimayya, saying the issues that led to his resignation were ‘rather trivial and of no consequence’, and that they arose ‘from temperamental differences’. He then chided the chief and reproached him for ‘wanting to quit in the midst of the Sino-Indian border crisis’.
    Even today, the contents of Thimayya’s resignation letter remain a highly guarded secret. Instead, vague stories about Thimayya’s resignation were routinely floated where it was said that Timmy had resigned out of pique because of the manner in which Krishna Menon treated him. On careful scrutiny, that doesn’t hold water.

    The much adored prime minister, who could do no wrong in the eyes of the public, had betrayed General Thimayya. Trapped in this bad situation, the chief had no option but to quietly endure the humiliation and get on with the job of trying to prepare the army to face the Chinese.
    The prime minister’s attitude towards Thimayya was damaging to the chief as well as the army. … General Thimayya was… a seasoned, disciplined soldier who would hardly have made issues over trifles. … After the resignation drama Thimayya was seen as an alarmist and a defeatist. Having thus weakened the office of the army chief, the prime minister now placed his hope in …Lieutenant General B. M. ‘Bijji’ Kaul whose star was on the rise.

    Nehru, unlike Bose and Patel, veered away from building military power. Although, when cornered, he was not averse to using it — as in the case of Kashmir in 1947-48 and then Goa in 1961 — for the most part, he talked disarmament, non-alignment and Panchsheel... when the first Commander-in-Chief of the Indian Army, General Sir Rob Lockhart, went to Nehru with a formal defence paper that needed a policy directive from the prime minister, Nehru had exclaimed: ‘Rubbish! Total rubbish! We don’t need a defence policy. Our policy is ahimsa (non-violence). We foresee no military threats. As far as I am concerned you can scrap the army — the police are good enough to meet our security needs.’ ...Nehru had to eat his words by the end of October 1947 itself when the tribal hordes invaded Kashmir.

    Perhaps Nehru could not have reacted militarily when China invaded Tibet in 1950, but since then he had had more than ten years to prepare... Despite repeated warnings... Nehru did very little to address the shortcomings of the army… Nehru was never comfortable with the armed forces… his political indoctrination had… instilled in him a desire to downgrade India’s officer cadre rather than tap their leadership potential... To make matters worse, Nehru... began to develop a deep-seated paranoia about the army. Many other countries that had become independent after World War II fell prey to military coups (the most pertinent example being Pakistan).

    As he drove from South Block to Teen Murti, Thimayya was acutely aware of the prime minister’s deep distrust of the military... Publicly Nehru was seen to be fond of Timmy; however, behind his back, the prime minister adopted tactics that clearly indicated that he viewed Thimayya as a rival who could challenge his position as the undisputed head of the Indian Union. Given the general’s track record in World War II — Thimayya had been the first and only Indian officer to command a fighting brigade in the Arakan where he had been awarded the Distinguished Service Order (DSO) — and the role played by him in the Jammu and Kashmir Operations, Nehru knew he could not browbeat him.

    ...Nehru was waiting for Thimayya and for the first time, the normally reticent Timmy exchanged angry words with the prime minister. He told Nehru that his arbitrary decision of making NEFA (North East Frontier Agency now called Arunachal Pradesh) the responsibility of the army, made public in Parliament, was... completely against Indian interests... Without providing the additional resources required, handing over the borders to the army was a meaningless gesture; this would allow the Chinese the opportunity to claim that the Indians were the aggressors... Thimayya asked Nehru to find a way out of the mess...

    Nehru and Krishna Menon knew that the prime minister was in serious trouble. He had got away with the admission in Parliament earlier in the day only because the triple whammy — ongoing clashes on the border, the construction of National Highway G219 across the Aksai Chin and the Khenzemane and Longju incidents — had come as a shock to the members of the House… Thimayya wanted Nehru to undo the mistake; but should the prime minister formally withdraw his statement about deploying the army... he would be committing political hara-kiri. The threat of Thimayya taking over the reins of government, at least in Nehru’s mind, was very real. Politics is full of subterfuge, and survival… Not only did the Nehru-Menon team now have to survive, they had to neutralize Thimayya. Three days later, Krishna Menon sent for Thimayya in ‘a highly excited state of mind’ and vented his anger at the chief for having approached the prime minister directly, suggesting instead that the matter should have been resolved at his level. Threatening Thimayya of ‘possible political repercussions if the matter became public’ Krishna Menon ended the meeting. A seething Thimayya… promptly sent in his resignation letter.

    The letter, which was received by Teen Murti on the afternoon of 31 August, was put up to Nehru who promptly sent for Thimayya in the afternoon… After a long conversation in which the prime minister persuaded the army chief to withdraw his resignation letter... the matter of the resignation was deemed closed.

    However, after Thimayya’s departure, news of his resignation was deliberately leaked to the media while the subsequent rescinding of the letter was held back… On 2 September 1959, the prime minister once again rose in Parliament to make a statement. He told the Lok Sabha that he had persuaded the chief to withdraw his resignation. He then went on to speak about the supremacy of the civilian authority over the military and... to castigate Thimayya... He... reproached him for ‘wanting to quit in the midst of the Sino-Indian border crisis’.

    ... The much adored prime minister, who could do no wrong in the eyes of the public, had betrayed General Thimayya. Trapped in this bad situation, the chief had no option but to quietly endure the humiliation and get on with the job of trying to prepare the army to face the Chinese… The prime minister’s attitude towards Thimayya was damaging to the chief as well as the army. … General Thimayya was… a seasoned, disciplined soldier who would hardly have made issues over trifles… Having thus weakened the office of the army chief, the prime minister now placed his hope in… Lieutenant General BM ‘Bijji’ Kaul whose star was on the rise.
    Source>>

    :mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:
     
  2.  
  3. HariPrasad-1

    HariPrasad-1 Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Messages:
    2,073
    Likes Received:
    1,861
    Location:
    Gujarat
    this family has a traitor record. I am not surprised at all.
     
    Illusive, suny6611 and maomao like this.
  4. maomao

    maomao Veteran Hunter of Maleecha Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2010
    Messages:
    4,497
    Likes Received:
    4,142
    Nehru was despicable petty human being he put himself before the country. Anyhow he was rabid anti-Hindu & India, hence the secessionists took the center stage in his policy against the army and nationalists!
     
  5. VaghaDeva

    VaghaDeva The Wise Wolf

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2016
    Messages:
    381
    Likes Received:
    143
    Location:
    Mangaluru
    Nehru is the gravedigger of akhand bharat and a race traitor its surprising no one bothered to pull a trotsky on him.......:rage:

    The spectacle of what is called religion, or at any rate organised religion, in India and elsewhere, has filled me with horror and I have frequently condemned it and wished to make a clean sweep of it. Almost always it seemed to stand for blind belief and reaction, dogma and bigotry, superstition, exploitation and the preservation of vested interests.

    I swear. What a chomu.


    [​IMG]
     
  6. VaghaDeva

    VaghaDeva The Wise Wolf

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2016
    Messages:
    381
    Likes Received:
    143
    Location:
    Mangaluru
    even Varun?
    [​IMG]
     
  7. garg_bharat

    garg_bharat Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,001
    Likes Received:
    999
    Is it necessary to dig such things? Nehru was right in supremacy of political authority over military.

    If military becomes an independent power center, then Indian democracy will stop functioning.

    1961 was a military debacle and Nehru was directly responsible. However we must evaluate a man on overall achievements and not just highlight one aspect.
     
  8. HariPrasad-1

    HariPrasad-1 Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Messages:
    2,073
    Likes Received:
    1,861
    Location:
    Gujarat
    Yes why do you ask any question? We do not have anything against varun but this family has the record of stabbing in back to nation.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2016
  9. garg_bharat

    garg_bharat Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,001
    Likes Received:
    999
    It is not true. Nehru and Indira Gandhi were fine. Things started to deteriorate after Indira came under foreign influence in 70s. She imposed emergency and everything went downhill from there.

    There is no need to speak against Varun Gandhi.
     
  10. garg_bharat

    garg_bharat Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,001
    Likes Received:
    999
    People forget that Marxism started in Germany. Europe till date is socialist. Democracy and socialism go together in European countries.

    Europe is a great promoter of socialism.

    USSR was a communist State. Communism is an extreme form of socialism. Russia is just like any other European State in its polity today.

    China has also ditched communism.

    Industrial development is a result of socialism as growth of consumer products is not possible until government puts money in people's pockets.

    India is also a socialist state. However socialism does not mean atheist ideology.

    Socialism does not mean caste based reservations.

    Socialism means government provides basic services and spreads money around. Socialism removes extreme poverty and inequality.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2016
    OneGrimPilgrim likes this.
  11. Abhijeet Dey

    Abhijeet Dey Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    999
    Likes Received:
    390
    Location:
    Kolkata, India
    De-recognise Nehru's birthday as Children's Day in India...... :mad2: Why should future generation of India suffer??
     
  12. garg_bharat

    garg_bharat Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,001
    Likes Received:
    999
    See there is no benefit beating this drum.

    We should all work for betterment of country. Festivals, religions, creeds, languages. Let us get over it.

    When people are smart enough, they will see through the crap.
     
  13. Abhijeet Dey

    Abhijeet Dey Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    999
    Likes Received:
    390
    Location:
    Kolkata, India
    Congress files FIR against two for offensive comments against Jawaharlal Nehru

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    http://www.dnaindia.com/india/repor...ive-comments-against-jawaharlal-nehru-2186661

    The Congress has lodged an FIR against two persons who had allegedly made derogatory remarks against Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru in the visitors' book at the Netaji Birthplace museum in Cuttack.

    Confirming that a named FIR had been lodged against two visitors by Cuttack district unit of Congress, Darghabazar police station Internal Investigation Command (IIC) Anil Kumar Beuria said today, "We have registered a case under section 292(a) of IPC for publicly speaking ill of somebody using obscene language and have started investigation." "Since the museum was closed on the day, we could not verify the visitors' book," Beuria said, adding that the CCTV footage would also be verified to ascertain details.

    Jairam Ramesh spotted it

    Using offensive language against Nehru, one of the two visitors in his remarks on Sunday afternoon said, "Netaji could not get his due recognition because of Nehru." The visitor, accompanied by a woman, then urged Prime Minister Narendra Modi to declassify all the files related to the disappearance of Netaji and went on signing his name, his postal address, E mail ID and telephone number below his remarks. The two visitors were from Bhubaneswar according to the address given, police said.

    Incidentally, the comments caught the attention of visiting senior Congress leader and former Union Minister Jairam Ramesh shortly afterwards on the same day and he took strong exception to the "distasteful" language used against Nehru, the freedom fighter and the first Prime Minister. Ramesh read the comments while signing the visitors' book after going round the museum on Sunday evening, Congress sources said here.

    Ramesh, however, did not join the issue in writing and instead in the next page of the log book appreciated the efforts of museum staff for very neatly displaying the artefacts of Bose, the legendary leader, in his ancestral home that was converted into a museum in 2003, a museum official said.
     
  14. DingDong

    DingDong Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2014
    Messages:
    2,227
    Likes Received:
    3,665
    Location:
    Delhi
    Our politicians might have taken 100s of bad decisions, but let us never forget that these same military and police personnel in uniform who switched their allegiance overnight after 15th of August 1947 were serving a foreign power in not so distant past and did not hesitate while shooting at and maiming the Indians on their British Masters' orders.

    After independence there was a pressing need to enforce a pecking order in which the generals were not on top, they were supposed to take orders from the elected representatives and never question those orders.

    We must be grateful to our political leaders who laid foundation for a vibrant democracy and preserved it. We India are proud of our military, but we must clearly draw red line which must never be crossed otherwise we may end up becoming another Pakistan.

    About Netaji, he wanted to establish a dictatorship, he was only partially useful for India.
     
    Nuvneet Kundu and garg_bharat like this.
  15. saty

    saty Tihar Jail Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2015
    Messages:
    1,112
    Likes Received:
    1,296
    This is the problem with even many RW Hindus i observed.

    We must be grateful to our political leaders who laid foundation for a vibrant democracy and preserved it. .............. WTF is this! 100 countries got independence after WW2 many are developed already &democratic.

    2.We may end up becoming another Pakistan.......... Second Bull Shit, if it goes like this we will become Porkistan or North Korea. :frusty: Why always compare our selves with a SHIT HOLE COUNTRIES why not for a second thought if MOFO Gandi/Nehru clan is not there we might become Singapore,South Korea or Japan?
     
  16. DingDong

    DingDong Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2014
    Messages:
    2,227
    Likes Received:
    3,665
    Location:
    Delhi
    I don't look at Nehru as my hero. But there were valid reasons for suspecting the Military leadership of 1950s, they were all trained by the British, and there was a good reason for showing those "generals" their real place. Try to look at the military of 1947s from the eyes of the people who fought for freedom, those who lost their kith and kins to the bullets fired by the "Indian Army", you will understand what am I talking about.

    Let us not compare with those other countries which gained independence after WW2, India was and is the second most populous country in the world, and we survive as a single entity under one flag not because of the military, but because the people of India and their representatives made good decisions.
     
    Nuvneet Kundu likes this.
  17. Abhijeet Dey

    Abhijeet Dey Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    999
    Likes Received:
    390
    Location:
    Kolkata, India
    Baldness to acne, our China syndrome

    http://www.governancenow.com/views/columns/baldness-acne-our-china-syndrome

    Chinese incursions into the Indian territory are not new. And our political leaders resorting to linguistic misadventure in response is also, unfortunately, not new.

    There were incursions in Aksai Chin ahead of the 1962 war. When the inimitable Piloo Mody raised the matter in parliament, prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru, who was otherwise a gifted orator, tried to downplay the issue. Nehru said it was a barren, inhospitable land and India had lost little by its occupation by China.

    "Not a blade of grass grows in Aksai Chin," Nehru famously said. (To which freedom fighter Mahavir Tyagi retorted, pointing to his bald head and saying: "Nothing grows here either... should it be cut off or given away to somebody?") :mad2:

    A similar case of mixed metaphors, once again with a bodily reference, has come up half a century later. External affairs minister Salman Khurshid has compared the standoff over the Chinese incursion in Ladakh's Depsang valley as "acne".

    "One little spot is acne, which cannot force you to say that this is not a beautiful face... that acne can be addressed by simply applying an ointment," he told a Ficci conference on April 25. “Ointment is part of the process of growing up, just as acne is part of the process of growing up. And the relation between India and China is a relationship which is growing up.”

    From baldness to acne, it is a shift towards juvenile delinquency in a matter of supreme national importance.

    But two days later, the later-day Nehru too had his version of blade-of-grass. "It is a localised problem,” said prime minister Manmohan Singh. What next? Sending the block development officer to Indo-China border talks?
     
  18. saty

    saty Tihar Jail Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2015
    Messages:
    1,112
    Likes Received:
    1,296
    What ever happened happened but Why always compare ourselves with SHIT HOLES? again and again.:facepalm:
    If Mofo Nehru was not there

    Army take over ...........we might become a Porkistan
    RSS take over .............we might become a Porkistan
    Civil war.........................we might become a Porkistan
    Muzzies again revolt ........we might become a Porkistan

    Because of NehruGandu clan we ended-up as a mini shithole 'India' else we actually become a South korea/Japan.
     
  19. garg_bharat

    garg_bharat Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,001
    Likes Received:
    999
    I do not think our people have reached a degree of maturity that they can understand fine nuances of politics.

    So it is better to keep the icons of free India.

    Let Jawaharlal be remembered. Time will come to ditch the old icons when new great icons are created.
     
  20. VaghaDeva

    VaghaDeva The Wise Wolf

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2016
    Messages:
    381
    Likes Received:
    143
    Location:
    Mangaluru
    Do you really think a military dictatorship would be that bad?

    Try to compare all those shitty 30s govts with all their inflation
     
  21. Ancient Indian

    Ancient Indian Unplugged Version Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2014
    Messages:
    2,039
    Likes Received:
    1,605
    Location:
    Everywhere
    Our soldiers in british era, were ready to turn tables on british, after Netaji's failed effort.

    In fact, brits conducted some secrete survey to know the pulse of our armed powers. After thoroughly analysing every other options, they came to Independence option.

    No one will give rat's arse if you follow some sanathana dharma or ahimsa nonsense. It is the fear of our army, that they left this country. Our soldiers showed it in the first pak war.

    @saty don't listen to our spring chair analysts. Feel proud of your country, even if we were in bad times.
     

Share This Page