How liberal are India's Liberals

Discussion in 'Politics & Society' started by Mad Indian, Feb 20, 2012.

  1. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Juggle-Bandhi : Jug Suraiya's blog-The Times Of India


    This is an article from TOI.... So this article alleges the same thing we allege the Liberals here with - Double standards...... Thoughts Welcome.....
     
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  3. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

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    This is the reality of the much hyped Secularists.

    And now many forum members who earlier used to dislike my harsh comments would realize why I speak so.
     
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  4. Tronic

    Tronic Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    The issue here is not that we don't realize the so called "left" or "liberal" in India fits neither of the two meanings, but the problem is that the the bigots on the right label the bigots on the so called "left" as "secularists" and than go on from there to spew hatred against secularism. It fits the Right's bigoted agenda to make people believe that the Congress is the example of "secularism" (when that is hardly true).

    The reality is infact that the Congress is not secular but divisive, but the ironic thing about it all is that it is the Right wing chaps dancing around screaming this on the top of their lungs. :rolleyes:

    The so called "Liberals" are exactly how the right wing wants them to be.
     
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  5. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    This is exactly the bias we face dude.... Rights are labelled as Communals!!!!

    And did you even read it...???? all those allegations are true... WE dont want the leperals to be like that, but just as the post say, the self proclaimed Sickulars and Leperals are like that....

    Its not our fault Congress says itself to be Sickular and Leperal you know???? and what are we supposed to do, suck their d*ck like the Leperals and Sickulars do???

    only in a fu(king country called India, asking for equality of religions gets the name Communal(---- yeah i am communal)
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2012
  6. KS

    KS Bye bye DFI Veteran Member

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    A right wing came into existence because of the actions of the so-called Liberals/Secularists. :rolleyes:

    It all started with the Shah Bano episode.
     
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  7. Tronic

    Tronic Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Because they are, no better for India than Congress.

    If Congress serves Muslims, than BJP serves Hindus. Neither serves India.

    Ofcourse you want them to be like that. Otherwise, instead of a right wing party propping up, wouldn't it be logical for a true secular party to be trying to replace the Congress? Obviously, the right wants it exactly the way it is now.

    What equality of religions??? Do you realize why the BJP is unable to be a competent party in any non-hindu dominated state? Even states like Punjab, where Congress is actually seen as the communal party! Because the BJP has gone out of its way to appear solely as a Hindu party, not exactly a "Bharatiya Janata Party" as its name suggests.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2012
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  8. Tronic

    Tronic Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Yes, right wings around the country did prop up due to the actions of the so-called "liberals/secularists". However, this doesn't mean that I go and start supporting, in my case, Sikh right wing groups. I protest against the same.

    For the first time in history, we have already started to see the Shiv Sena and Akali Dal (Amritsar) clashing against each other on the streets. 2006, Tarn Taran is a good example. Another example a clash with BJP chaps and Sikh right wing youths in Ludhiana in 2008. So, yea, lets's all go rally behind our right wing organizations; for the sake of this country! :rolleyes:

    As for people giving me examples of Akali Dal (Badal) tie up with the BJP; let's be real, he's an opportunist and his tie up came to consolidate his power after the electorate had voted. Despite the BJP tie up, Badal ended up giving official recognition to Bhinderenwala as a 'Sikh martyr', whose portrait now hangs in the official Sikh history museum in Amritsar.

    Some replacement for the sickular Congress. :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2012
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  9. KS

    KS Bye bye DFI Veteran Member

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    In Indian context both are interchangeable.

    Even I protest when idiots like Muthalik go and beat people (some time back) for celebrating Valentine's day and such stuff. But when faced with idiots from other communities who go away scot free for doing the same antics of these guys you definitely will start feeling sorry for them. Why should the other groups be let off when these guy's actions are alone condemned ? Conversely, if others are not criticized why should these groups be ?

    Right now the people who sympathize with the Hindu right wing groups are relatively small when compared to the whole population and even those who sympathize with them do no wish harm upon other religions. They just want the status quo to be maintained and efforts to alter the social balance resisted. But the numbers are growing every day and Hindus becoming "Semitized" because of the creeping defensive mindset is perhaps the worst thing to happen to minorities and to Hinduism itself. It is very unfortunate, but one that cannot be avoided if these pseudoo-secularist and appeasement policies continue.



    What happened there ? I'm not aware of local Punjab politics.


    Bhindranwale did not murder Hindus wholescale. The Khalistanis did it on the aftermath of his murder. So why would BJP care about hanging Bhindranwale's photo ? Indira is as much to blame for Punjab insurgency as the fanatic Khalistanis.
     
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  10. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    And when CONgress sucks up a particular community at my cost, i will rather suck up BJP who is more than willing to sympathise for me

    No we dont want them to like that you ******.... You think we came into this world thinking " i want to dominate the muslims and christian?" You are really trying my patience here...

    And were do the LEPERals and SUCKulars go whenever there is need to address our fears???? Where were you when there Was Shah Bano case???


    And where are you now when thousands of Hindus are being converted by Nutjobs out there... what have you Leperals and Sickulars have done against it...????

    If right wing is the only person to address our fears, then to right wing we are....

    And you think you are a secular, no you are no different from the Suckulars- as i see no differance between you and those CONgis.....
     
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  11. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    He is another Bleeding heart liberal who will die himself for protecting his masters... A Lost cause... leave him....!!!!! Probably if he was sent to Porkistan then he will come to his senses,,,,!!!!!
     
  12. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    And you care about equality of religions eh???? yeah shoot me in the head because i must have mis understood the term... i never knew that Secularism= minority appeacement...

    If i am a hard core right winger today, its because of you leperals and suckularists... i hate losing my religious freedom... if i am in US( where there is secularism instead of suckularism) i would have been a Liberal my self..... But i have been forced into my hard line stand... These Leperal suckung of dic*s is creating more and more hardline Hinduism which i feel powerless to stop... sad part is i dont want it to stop...!!!! Hindus are being robbed of their tolerant liberal stand because of these Leperals and Suckulars.... we feel cheated about our secularism and tolerance....


    And Dont you dare accuse BJP in this... I became what i am today on my own...!!! No one Brain washed me.... BJP is non existant in my state.... I am not mentally insane to not know what is being done to my religious brothers.... Where were these Suckers and *ick lickers when Kashmiri Pundits were forced out of their home???? Where were they when the ----ING Evangelists were converting my brothern in their lunatic religion( tolerance my ass).... In my own hospital itself i see five or six converts!!!! WTF did the Suckulars do to prevent it....????


    I am not living in 17th century where i had to suck others to survive!!!!! I will defend myself when my way of life is threatened(actually threatened unlike the pretenders of India)


    And If there is any hope of harmony in India, the Minorities must ACTUALLY become secular and Liberal.... Then you dont have to preach your Champagne Socialism!!!! Right wing will die down on its own!!!
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2012
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  13. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Shah Bano case - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Consequences

    The Shah Bano case generated tremendous debate in India. Critics[who?] argued that Muslim minorities can exert pressure on government and judicial decisions. The mainstream media disapproved of the decision. The opposition reacted strongly against the Congress party's policies.

    The case has led to Muslim women receiving a large, one-time payment from their husbands during the period of iddat, instead of a maximum monthly payment of 500 - an upper limit which has since been removed. Cases of women getting lump sum payments for lifetime maintenance are becoming common.

    Critics of the Shah Bano case point out that while divorce is within the purview of personal laws, maintenance is not, and thus it is discriminatory to exclude Muslim women from a civil law. Exclusion of non-Muslim men from a law that appears inherently beneficial to men is also pointed out by them.

    The Shah Bano case once again spurred the debate on the Uniform Civil Code in India. Ironically, the Hindu Right led by parties like the Jan Sangh which had strongly opposed reform of Hindu law in the 50's, in its metamorphosis as the Bharatiya Janata Party became an advocate for secular laws across the board. However, their opposition to the reforms was based on the argument that no similar provisions would be applied for the Muslims on the claim that they weren't sufficiently advanced. The pressure exerted by orthodox Muslims caused women's organizations and secularists to cave in.

    The Passing of Muslim Women Protection Act allegedly sent a message of Muslim appeasement practised by the Congress party. To counter this charge Rajiv Gandhi began his election campaign in 1989 from Ram Janma Bhumi ( birth place of Lord Rama ) in Ayodhya.

    what did LEPERals and the SUCKULARS do to to prevent this.... Any Liberal should give why this happened before RANTING any further....
     
  14. Tronic

    Tronic Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    No so in Punjab.

    I totally agree, and that is why Congress is at fault. Biggest example of Congress's hypocrisy is Punjab. Dera supporters can kill a Sikh protester in broad daylight in front of hundreds of cameras and the government does nothing, nada, not a single arrest; but Sikhs are picked up from their homes on mere suspicions for wanting to carry out attacks against the Deras.

    So definitely Congress is at fault for starting the divisions, but that doesn't mean that we should go forward and cause greater divisions to get back at the Congress. This primitive politics is tearing the country apart. I agree that the Sikh right wing has a point for discontentment, but I don't support them because they are counter-productive to mending a country together.

    I agree, and all I'm trying to point out is that the Hindus aren't the only ones who want the status quo and who are growing a defensive mindset. To give you a differing perspective, Sikhs are not given due recognition in the Indian constitution, furthermore, the RSS is actively encroaching upon the Sikh religion by distributing provocative literature. With the Deras too playing their part, and with little state support, Sikh right wing organizations are flourishing, and now clashes between RSS and Sikh right wing are becoming more commonplace.

    The mistake you are making is thinking that right wing organizations are only a one way street, i.e., only composed of Hindu right wing. That is not true.


    In 2006, SS Mann wrote a piece about the Shiv Sena after which the RSS started a campaign threatening SS Mann and burning his effigies in the streets of Tarn Taran. Akali Dal (Amritsar) complained to the police, but after the police took no action; the Akali Dal youth themselves went head to head against the RSS in Tarn Taran, and the clash/riot resulted in the local RSS leader ending up in the hospital with several stab wounds. Needless to say, the RSS didn't try screwing with Mann again.

    In 2009, BJP MLAs launched a function honoring a "godman" who describes his followers as Sikhs, and his teachings as Sikhism despite his teachings being clearly not in line with mainstream Sikhism. When the Sikhs came out on the streets against him, BJP and RSS chaps in clear opposition to the Sikh groups, expressed their support for him and vowed to defend him against Sikh groups. Too bad it didn't come down to that, since the Police came in between.


    btw, Even the Khalistanis did not murder Hindus wholescale. Infact, a number of Hindus were actually part of some Khalistani groups. Khalistanis were not one united organization, but several groups, who periodically clashed with each other for influence.
     
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  15. Tronic

    Tronic Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    @ Mad Indian

    I'm not pro-Congress dumbfck!

    Learn to read first before going all apeshit on me.
     
  16. KS

    KS Bye bye DFI Veteran Member

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    Punjab is an exception because Hindus are not the majority there. Overall in Indian context, leaving out exception, Right wing means Hindu groups/Sangh Parivar. Or so goes the definition....


    As true as you may sound , the unfortunate reailty is the inaction of the Hindus- who continue to be be idealistic and accomodating towards other minorities (Muslims,Christians) irrespective of the follies of the mischief-mongers in their communities - will only be perceived as weakness on our part and our patience tested even more. Also the silent majority amongst their own community not raising their voice against that only adds to the suspicion. I can tell with pride that Hindus as a community and Hinduism as a religion has been most accommodating towards people of other faiths and given refuge to them from their persecution for millenia. That was possible because of the culture influenced by the religion. If that culture, which has been the most tolerant, is itself perceived to be under threat due to various factors like terrorism, demographic shifts, appeasement policies of the Govt and thereby becomes the Achilles heal of the community then it is innate human tendency to shed that tolerance a little bit and become more defensive..

    That is what I see happening among the middle class Hindus all over India and that is so not good for minorities and for Hinduism as a faith itself. The USP of Hinduism was its un-organized,eclectic way..but when that becomes a weakness perhaps it is time to get a little bit organized. Because the tolerance itself can survive only if Hinduism (mainstream Indian religions), survives and are in a majority in India.


    That is quite unfortunate. Indian religions all share a common base of tolerance and acceptance of other faiths and we should not be clashing with each other. :no:

    I think by 'provocative literature' you mean RSS says, Sikhism is just another sect in Hinduism. I would not say that. I would say Hinduism, Sikhism,Jainism and Buddhism all form a part of the larger family of Sanatan Dharma or the Dharma that flourished in this part of the part. The primary threat to the Indian religions is from the neo-fanatic fringes of the organized religions. It's high time we recognize who is the issue ,for once in our history.

    + If RSS and the SIkh groups should stop fighting amongst themselves and present a united front to the conversionaries who are silently peddling their snake oil in Punjab. I have been to gurudwaras and most of the time when I went to Siddhivinayak temple I used to see Sikhs praying as frantically :)P) as myself and chanting Ganpati Bappa Morya. So why are we fighting amongst ourselves ? Havent we learned from history what happens when we fight amongst ourselves ? :facepalm:


    After 84 riots which , unfortunately, was seen in Punjab as a Hindu attack on Sikhs the primary target of Khalistanis were Hindus in Punjab.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2012
  17. Iamanidiot

    Iamanidiot Elite Member Elite Member

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    @Tronic
    What is the current status of the Sikh right wing and the RSS in Punjab?How good is the communal harmony in Punjab I hope all this altercations you have mentioned do not seep into daily life
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2012
  18. Tronic

    Tronic Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Than I hope you agree, a faulty definition.

    I would also reckon that the right wing in the North East and Kashmir too has a different face.


    Nothing wrong with becoming organized. The problem here is hostility towards other communities. One does not need to be hostile to gain power and change some government policies around. However, with this new phobia of Muslims "outbreeding" Hindus, why are such thoughts, atleast to me, treading genocidal borders? How does the Hindu right wing plan to counter "overbreeding"? I'm curious to know.


    Sikhism is an organized religion, and has been for centuries.

    To put it simply, the phobia among the Sikhs is not coming from the Christian missionaries, but the RSS, which is printing provocative books on Sikh history (yes, portraying Sikhism as merely a sect). The hatred I see simmering at the ground level is towards the RSS (and to some extent BJP), which sadly is being associated as "Brahmanism" to kill the Sikh religion. Its a grassroots problem. Furthermore, RSS and BJP support to heretic cults and "godmen" which Sikhs are vehemently against doesn't help the situation much.

    Honestly Karthic, I don't think the Sikhs need RSS's help here, lol. Sikh groups are already countering the Christian missionary activities by matching them; school for school, hospital for hospital, financial aid for financial aid. Infact, Sikh groups have spread their operations out of more than just Punjab and into many places around the world, even Pakistan, where they have been providing a lot of aid to the Pakistani Sikhs, especially those in the tribal belt!

    RSS can't even dream of matching the work done by Sikh groups in not only spreading Sikhism but also helping the poor around the world!

    Infact Karthic, just watch this video and compare the image of these groups with that of RSS:


    Now compare the two.

    Do you really think the RSS is doing service to Hinduism with the image they have built for themselves?

    Only way RSS knows how to convert is through intimidation. That doesn't work where Hindus are minority, like for example, the North East.

    Karthic, the Hindu-Sikh rift really first surfaced when the Punjabi Hindu groups started to rally for Hindi as their mother tongue to deny the creation of a Sikh majority, linguistically Punjabi speaking Punjab. This was construed by the Sikhs, as one Sikh author put it, "The Hindu conspiracy to destroy Sikhs; kill the language, kill the culture, kill the community".

    Also, it is true that many Sikhs do go to temples and have more or less assimilated in other states, but it is also important to note that those are not the vast majority, especially in Punjab.

    Infact, I'll be very honest; I had never stepped foot inside a mandir until probably my late teens, and that was quite a cultural shock! I was totally lost as to what to do, and a little bit intimidated (especially since the Pandits were a-holes telling me to move faster lol). I went to Rajasthan recently and visited a few popular mandirs and still am always a bit nervous not knowing how to go about and constantly not wanting to get in the way of people behind me, who probably know what they are doing. My "talk" with god is still restricted to during my sajdah at the Gurudwara. Mandir trips are restricted to checking out the historic architecture and the carvings of the buildings.

    So yes, I do think that there is quite a bit of difference between the religious culture young Sikhs grow up in, and the non-Punjabi Hindus (Punjabi Hindus frequent gurudwaras more often and so I believe are more culturally similar). That said, there should be mutual respect and acknowledgement of our differences. The RSS believes otherwise.

    True, but it should also be acknowledged that those killings were widely condemned in Punjab, so much so, that none of the Khalistani groups wanted to take responsibility for them. Infact, after the first killings, I believe the Khalistan Commando Force came out and took full responsibility, but after the enormous and furious response they got from the Sikh masses, they tracked back on their claim and denied any involvement!
     
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  19. Tronic

    Tronic Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Good thing about Punjab is that the Punjabi culture has almost always transcended religious groupism. The communal harmony is excellent, and I don't think there has ever been a single Sikh-Hindu, Sikh-Christian or Sikh-Muslim clash ever since partition. *touchwood* :p

    However, political groups and sects have indeed been clashing since decades, and there will indeed be a clash if the RSS comes out openly against the Sikh right wing. I'm more interested to see if the RSS actually has the balls to overtly come out on the streets against Sikh right wing groups. So far, the RSS has been nothing but shy to openly confront Sikh radical groups like the Dal Khalsa, which have been calling out the RSS for quite some time now.
     
  20. KS

    KS Bye bye DFI Veteran Member

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    Actually I don't want my religion to become organized with a hierarchy and what to do, what not to do. That is one distinguishing factor of Hinduism among the other major religions of the world. It gives you the freedom to practise your stuff according to your interpretation. No Fatwas, no rulings nothing. But it seems every day we move one step closer to that. Unfortunate it may be, it seems the only way Hindus can hav a voice for themselves in , ironically, a 80% Hindu country.


    Then honestly you know nothing about the social service activities of RSS. And I dont blame you. Because the media (the "secular",english ones) projects RSS as some bunch of two horned devils who are out to get everyone.

    Lakhs of RSS volunteers work in tribal tracts of central India and villages (which dont even have paved roads) all over helping people with their primary education needs and primary healthcare.

    And the impressive part is in most cases the money is from their own pockets. I have always argued that RSS should counter the negative publicity attributed to them through campaigns about their stellar activities which rarely make it to the media. But their media-shyness prevents them from doing that.They need to come to terms with the 21st century and use every means at their disposal to dispel the myths about them that are propagated by the english media.

    The image/face of the RSS you see in the media is not its original face.The sad part is even RSS is not worried about it though they go about their social activities in the remote areas as usual, unmindful of the calumny being heaped on them.


    Why would RSS work where Hindus are in a minority ? It's a Hindu socio-cultural organization .I dont see any Sikh charity groups in my place. And again wrong. One or two acts of intimidation are exaggerated and the hundreds of other good works are not shown.


    Now do you understand why most Hindus hate these occultist evangelist groups. ? The only difference being while RSS is not calling for the annihilation of Sikhism or derides it as some satan worshipping pagan cult, we get labelled as such by these evangelist groups.

    Look I will be frank with you. On a personal level I don't see Sikhism as that much different from Hinduism because inspite of Hinduism being considered polytheistic, Hinduism too says the ultimate power lies with one God - Shiva and the entire universe are but his manifestations. But by saying both are very much similar it doesnt mean one is a subset of another. Both are subsets of Sanatan Dharma. Maybe because Sikhism came later some consider it as an attempt at refinement of Hinduism which again after the 8th century rejuvenation was going through a stagnant phase, just like how Buddhism and Jainism started out. But if you believe that both are distinct I will not argue. But I for one cannot and will not see a Buddhist or a Jain or a Sikh as the same as Christian or a Muslim.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2012
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  21. Galaxy

    Galaxy Elite Member Elite Member

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    Isn't Bhinderenwala was a terrorist ??
     

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