How India lost the plot on Submarine Purchase.

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by Galaxy, Nov 5, 2011.

  1. Galaxy

    Galaxy Elite Member Elite Member

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    1980’s was Glorious years for Indian Navy’s submarine arm, it had an impressive 21 Submarine under its arms, not only that, it was successfully operating Russian leased nuclear submarine INS Chakra under its command.

    So went wrong, where did India lose the plot, that now India navy only has 14 submarines under it fleet , and in next few year’s numbers will only decline? .major reason for that fallout can be blamed on HDW Submarine scam ,which came into light when Rajiv Gandhi was the Prime Minister of India. The case was registered by the defence minister at that time V P Singh in March 1990 after receiving a telegraphic message from the Indian Ambassador in Germany that time about the payment of 7 % to some middlemen.

    India inducted four Dr Gabler 1500 HDW/IKL designed submarines between 1986 and 1994, first two were delivered by the submarine manufacture HDW. In 1982 had send various Naval officers and MDL workers to Germany for training in the construction of those submarine at a great expense, with successful TOT and with local submarine building expertise at hand, India was able to build only two HDW submarine and plans were to construct at least reported 4 more submarine locally .surfacing of the HDW scam, not only lead to blacklisting of the company but also long and lengthy CBI probe into the matter. This almost bought all Submarine purchase to stand still.

    How worse was it for Navy? Well last submarine inducted was 11 years ago, and in last 21 years, only two were inducted .last one to be inducted was the Russian built Kilo class submarine INS Sindhushastra (S 65) which was commissioned in June 2000.

    Sleep could have gone for few more years, but India got a rude shock, when Pakistani purchased new modern French built Agosta 90B submarine in 99, even with this event, India took its own time to select French Scorpion submarine and went into an agreement only in 2005.

    After HDW scam, local expertise were lost on submarine building and docks were empty and idle for two decades , and now we are painfully re-learning that art , production of Scorpion submarine locally ,without experts at hand has already seen delays , so much so that first submarine will only be inducted in 2015 , instead on this year .

    India’s Submarine building plan approved by Government of India in 1999, had approved 24 conventional (Diesel) submarine by 2030, it was divided into three phase.

    First Phase: procurement of Six French Scorpion submarine under Project 75, first submarine to be inducted by 2011, but after delays it has been put to 2015.

    Second Phase: procurement of six more submarine under Project 75 (I), for which French have proposed a larger and advance Scorpion variant , which has been backed by Mazagon Docks . RFP (request for proposal) has been send to Rosoboronexport (Russian), DCNS/Armaris (French), HDW (German) and Navantia (Spain). Short listing and detailed technical and commercial negotiations will follow, before the actual contract can be inked by 2014-15. Indian navy wants private shipyard to build this phase of the submarines, since it feels that Mazagon Docks are overloaded with construction of Scorpion submarine. It seems Navy might have learned from its mistake and will purchase first two submarines from selected vendor and give enough time to train officials and engineers.

    Third Phase: Locally developing 12 Diesel Submarine in India, with construction to begin post 2020, but development or even research, seems to be on back burner and nowhere in Horizon.

    On Nuclear Submarine front , India’s Much publicised Secret Nuclear submarine project under Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) , was been developed at snail pace , and DRDO took close to 3 decades in its development , but first two decades only involved development and research and construction activity was carried out only in last decade .lead ship of Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) INS Arihant (S-73) was launched and introduced to the public on 26 July 2009, and currently carrying out sea trials , and the second Submarine under Arihant class is reported to be under construction . The completion of the INS Arihant will make India one of six countries in the world with the ability to design, build, and operate its own nuclear submarines .But India is yet to launch its SSBN class submarines .

    Indian Navy has now 14 conventional submarines, of which 10 are Russian build Kilo class submarine and 4 German designed HDW Submarine, first 6 kilo class submarine in Indian navy at present are 22 years old and ageing. And the Seventh Kilo Class Submarine (Sindhukirti (S61)) which was under refit in Hindustan Shipyard Ltd (HSL) to enable it to fire Uran missiles with Russian help is in dismal condition and after close to four years in docks, submarine is still not ready and it has been citied that the submarine is has good has lost due to poor engineering works carried out on the hull of the submarine .so Indian navy is unofficially down to 13 Submarines at present.

    Indian Economy is expanding and it requires strong navy to protect its interest, energy security. Stability in the Indian Ocean will depend on Indian navy; China with close to 60 Conventional submarines is also more interested in securing its energy needs and is more interested in dominating Indian Ocean .dominance which Indian navy has been holding for decades now.
     
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  3. ace009

    ace009 Freakin' Fighter fan Elite Member

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    Can anyone provide a description of which submarines are on order and when they are supposed to be delivered as well as what else IN is trying to order?
     
  4. ace009

    ace009 Freakin' Fighter fan Elite Member

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  5. Adux

    Adux Senior Member Senior Member

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    Whoever came with 18 Diesels for defensive Indian Ocean Operations is enough, is a complete idiot. And I mean that.

    India requires enormous number of Submarine and Naval Aviation capability to take advantage of our great geo-strategic position as the control of the whole Indian ocean. Our Diesels, MPA's and Naval Strike aircrafts should be swarming the Indian ocean. Making it absolute impossible for even USN to have its way around with ease.

    It should be our Nuke Sub Force, who should number atleast 8 SSBN's and 30 SSN/SSGN's running into South China sea.


    You can all use the USN metholdology of operational availability , which would be mean we will only have 5 SSBN's and 20 SSN/SSGN in water at any given point of time.
     
  6. Galaxy

    Galaxy Elite Member Elite Member

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    We have total 14 submarine. Currently we are operating 13 submarines. (1 in shipyard due to some problem for last 2 years)


    6 Scorpène class submarine underdevelopment - It will be inducted between 2015-2018.

    4 ATV's under development + 1 Akula will be inducted soon. - 5 By 2020.


    There is also one possibility to build 3 more Scorpène submarine.
    Under Project 75I, we are planning to Buy/Build 6 more submarine. Amur/S-1000/Aramis/German are 4 possible candidate.

    Also, By 2020 (Half of the 14 current submarines will be decommissioned)


    So, By 2020 - 7 existing + 6 scorpene + 4 SSBN + 1 SSGN. = 18 (Minimum)

    But we need more submarines (We use to operate around 25 during 70's)

    We need at least 30

    By 2022, (7 Existing + 5 ATV + 9 Scorpene + 6 P 75I) - 27 very much possible if MoD takes some concrete step without wasting time. Once we will have 27 then we can start 12-16 home made Submarine as per plan and from experience of Scorpene + P 75I) and then by 2030, We will have 35-40.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2011
  7. anoop_mig25

    anoop_mig25 Senior Member Senior Member

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    one thing i donot understand why does we have scam in every other defence contract while other nation specially pakistan donot have or nobody reports in their national interest.
     
  8. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Because in Mota bhai's words "We are a land of billion opportunities!"

    However, I do not see scam in submarine procurement after HDW. Antony anna prefers to delay everything fearing any possible irregularity.

    As far as pakistan is concerned, they get everything in udhaar. And just because we don't hear about it does not mean it never happens.
     
  9. bengalraider

    bengalraider DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    The only way i see out of this mess is to buy the Navantia,Rubin, L&T S1000, that way we can build the sub in India, Spain and Russia at the same time building three boats simultaneously instead of one by one.
     

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