How come Indian women started wearing veils to cover their faces?

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Vikramjeet

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@Vikramjeet

Thank you for the info that added to my education and knowledge.
Very much appreciated. Guys do not know that I had to spend lot of time ( year or so) on reading all ancient texts along with two of my friends one who is a professional in Gurgaon but is scholar of Vedic Sanskrit.
 
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monrand

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Interesting. Christianity, on the other hand, never forced their women to cover their faces
 

Ray

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Interesting. Christianity, on the other hand, never forced their women to cover their faces
"But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonours her head—it is the same as if her head were shaven. For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil.

"For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.) That is why a woman ought to have a veil on her head, because of the angels .....If any one is disposed to be contentious, we recognize no other practice, nor do the churches of God."
(1 Corinthians 11:3-10,16)
That is what the Bible says.

Could anything be more sacrosanct than the Biblical words?
 
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Vikramjeet

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People are not getting what I said. Women wore veils out of modesty and social conventions( in pre islamic times) but there was no punishment for not doing that except social criticism. When Budda's wife did not wear veil, she was not punished when she resolved to do that. Even her father in law Suddhona accepted it and even praised her. My point basically is that an ignorant crowd sees Islam everywhere but that is nonsense. Islam impacted India in sense that it destroyed Indian intellectual and material culture, it did not impact us directly. We continued speaking our languages, our scripts and our mores and manners.( good or bad). And now there is no such thing as Indic Civilization so Christianisation of India is of no serious consequence for me.
 

Vikramjeet

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BTW, on that Hindu Sikh thing. I do not like why many nationalist Hindus force others to adopt labels they do not want. Sikhs are not Hindus and their scriptures are completely different. A man of Jammu knows Raghunath and Ramayana as does a man from karnataka but not even people of Marwar know anything about( i mean common people not netizens) Guru Granth sahib as it is not scripture of them. Also, sikh scriptures mock Hindu gods like this

ਕਿਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਸੇ ਕੀਟ ਕੋਟੈ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਕਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਸੇ ਮੇਟਿ ਡਾਰੇ ਉਪਾਏ ॥
किते क्रिसन से कीट कोटै बनाए ॥ किते राम से मेटि डारे उपाए ॥
Somewhere He hath created millions of the servants like Krishna. Somewhere He hath effaced and then created (many) like Rama.




reference- Dasam granth page 98


No real hindu( as opposed to pseudo Hindus who abound) would think Krishna and Ram as mere servants like millions of people. The above line says that some monotheist God (Rab as Sikhs say) created servants like Krishna and Ram.

O Pandit, I saw your Raam Chand coming too


he lost his wife, fighting a war against Raawan

O Pandit, O religious scholar, your Gayatri was grazing in the fields

Taking a stick, the farmer broke its leg, and now it walks with a limp.

O Pandit, I saw your great god Shiva, riding along on a white bull.

n the merchant's house, a banquet was prepared for him - he killed the merchant's son




Source Guru Granth Sahib.


It is clear that sikhism is a distinct religion.
 
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Vikramjeet

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Most Indians certainly have heard about 'Arthasastra' which really shows how far art of Statescraftmanship had advanced in ancient India. kautilya aka Chanakya who wrote this was quite an influential scholar and his view dominated India a lot. Now, Victorian moralists would be shocked to see this from him. He basically prescribes fines for meeting of man and woman ( if purpose was erotic) One pana is equal to 3 grams of silver ( coins were called pana in Arthasastra)

". She shall pay a fine of 12 panas if she goes out to see another man or for sports. For the same offences committed at night, the fines shall be doubled."

"If a man and a woman make signs to each other with a view to sensual enjoyment, or carry on secret conversation (for the same purpose), the woman shall pay a fine of 24 panas, and the man, double the amount. A woman, holding out her hair, the tie of her dress round her loins, her teeth or her nails, shall pay the first amercement, and a man, doing the same, twice the first amercement."

"For holding conversation in suspicious places, whips may be substituted for fines."

He also limited mobility of Indian women a lot.

"IF under any other excuse than danger, a woman gets out of her husband's house, she shall be fined 6 panas. If she gets out against the order (of her husband) to the contrary, she shall be fined 12 panas. If she goes beyond her neighbouring house (prativesagrihatigatáyah), she shall be fined 6 panas. If she allows into her house her neighbour, takes into her house the alms of any mendicant, or the merchandise of any merchant, she shall be fined 12 panas. If she deals as above though expressly forbidden, she shall be punished with the first amercement. If she goes out beyond the surrounding houses (parigrihátigatáyam), she shall be fined 24 panas."

Kautilya's teacher was bit liberal but he was very harsh.

"If leaving her husband's house, a woman goes to another village, she shall not only pay a fine of 12 panas, but also forfeit her endowment and jewels (sthápyábharanalopascha). If under any other excuse than receiving her subsistence or pilgrimage (bharmádánatirthagamanábhyámanyatra), a woman goes to any other place even in company with an associable man, she shall not only pay a fine of 24 panas, but also lose all kinds of social privileges (sarvadharmalopascha)."



Quasi Talibanist attitude, right?
 

ladder

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People are not getting what I said. Women wore veils out of modesty and social conventions( in pre islamic times) but there was no punishment for not doing that except social criticism. When Budda's wife did not wear veil, she was not punished when she resolved to do that. Even her father in law Suddhona accepted it and even praised her. My point basically is that an ignorant crowd sees Islam everywhere but that is nonsense. Islam impacted India in sense that it destroyed Indian intellectual and material culture, it did not impact us directly. We continued speaking our languages, our scripts and our mores and manners.( good or bad). And now there is no such thing as Indic Civilization so Christianisation of India is of no serious consequence for me.
When, why and under which circumstances Yashodhara shunned her veil needs to be mentioned. Without it, the generalization that removing veil wasn't punished is vague.
 

Vikramjeet

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When, why and under which circumstances Yashodhara shunned her veil needs to be mentioned. Without it, the generalization that removing veil wasn't punished is vague.
This is the entire text.

"However, no matter who the Śākya girl Gopā encountered, whether it
was her mother-in-law, her father-in-law, or any other member of the inner quarters,
she did not cover her face. So people criticized her and spoke badly of her, saying,
"A new wife is supposed to be covered, but this one is always exposed."
The Śākya girl Gopā heard this rumor, and in front of all the folk of the inner quarters,
she said these verses:
"A noble being shines when uncovered,
Whether sitting, standing, or walking,
Like a precious gem beaming,
Radiant on the pinnacle of a standard.
"Whilegoing, a noble being shines,
And likewise while coming, a noble being shines.
While rising or sitting,
A noble being always shines.
"A noble being shines when speaking,
And even when silent, a noble being shines,
Just like a nightingale does
Whenever seen or heard.
"Whether he wears clothes made of kuśa grass,
Poor quality clothes, or his body is emaciated,
One who is replete with good qualities and is adorned by those qualities
Shines with his own radiance. [158]
"A noble one without evil
Shines perpetually,
Whereas an immature being who commits evil
Never shines no matter what he wears.
"Those who have evil in their hearts but whose speech is sweet
Are like a jar of poison topped off with nectar.
Like a rocky stone rough to the touch, they are hard inside;
Being with them is like caressing a viper's head.
"The truly gentle are approached and honored by all,
Just like a sacred bathing bank, which sustains everyone.
Noble beings are like a jar filled with milk and curd; [F.81.b]
It is extremely auspicious to behold such a pure nature.
"Those who have long shunned evil companions,
Who are now surrounded by precious spiritual friends,
Who relinquish evil deeds and adhere to the teaching of the buddhas
Are fruitfully auspicious to behold.
THE PLAY IN FULL 115
"Those who control their bodies thus control all physical faults;
Those who control their speech never confuse their words;
Those with guarded senses are mentally composed and serene.
What good is it to cover the face of such beings?
"Others may be covered in a thousand garments,
But if their minds are revealed to lack shame and modesty
And if they have no good qualities and lack truthful speech,
Then they move through the world more naked than naked. [159]
"There are those who conceal their mind and restrain their senses,
Who are satisfied with their husbands and do not pine after others.
When they shine unconcealed, like the sun and moon,
What good is it to cover their faces?
"Furthermore the great sages, those who know the thoughts of others,
And the assemblies of gods all know my thoughts.
They know my discipline, qualities, restraint, and carefulness;
So why should I veil my face?"
Monks, when King Śuddhodana heard these eloquent verses from the Śākya girl Gopā,
he felt satisfied and happy, and he cheerfully rejoiced. He then offered her a pair
of fine cotton fabrics that were set with many different types of jewels, a pearl necklace
worth a hundred billion silver coins, and a garland of gold set with red pearls.
The king then offered this sentiment:
"Just as my son is adorned with good qualities,
His bride too is radiant with her own good qualities.
That these two pristine beings have come together
Is just like butter and clarified butter."



Basically, Yashodhara said that if someone's thoughts are pure and all gods know her love for her husband why need for veil?
 

Vikramjeet

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Link please.
Link please, link please, link please, this is the problem with you guys, you do not read books but rather some blogs and sites and mythipedia like wikipedia. Anyway, the whole text is available free online. It is Lalitvistara Sutra. I hope you can find it now. Read the chapter number 12
 
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ladder

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Link please, link please, link please, this is the problem with you guys, you do not read books but rather some blogs and sites and mythipedia like wikipedia. Anyway, the whole text is available free online. It is Lalitvistara Sutra. I hope you can find it now. Read the chapter number 12
Don't try to sermonise you little idiot. I asked for a link, either provide or decline. You can't expect every one to be interested in religion can you? to read all the text? Have I said that I am 'know it all' about religion? Any religion?

I asked you a question which is generic, without knowing why, when and what context did that thing happen one cannot generalize and extend the same to cover whole of the society then. Your copy-paste didn't give those details. So I asked for a link.

But, it seems reading didn't have the desired effect on you. You are more impulsive and reactive and generalising than a man who haven't been exposed to them(religious texts). Yes because probably you just 'read'.
 
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Vikramjeet

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This is from Mahabharata( now do not say link please). This reflects that bringing married wives in assembly of men alone was considered bad a reason why Draupadi taunts all Kurus.

"Vaisampayana said,--"Dragged with greater force than before, the afflicted and helpless Draupadi, undeserving of such treatment, falling down upon the ground, thus wept in that assembly of the Kurus,--

"'Alas, only once before, on the occasion of the Swayamvara, I was beheld by the assembled kings in the amphitheatre, and never even once beheld afterwards. I am to-day brought before this assembly. She whom even the winds and the sun had seen never before in her palace is to-day before this assembly and exposed to the gaze of the crowd. Alas, she whom the sons of Pandu could not, while in her palace, suffer to be touched even by the wind, is to-day suffered by the Pandavas to be seized and dragged by this wretch. Alas, these Kauravas also suffer their daughter-in-law, so unworthy of such treatment, to be thus afflicted before them. It seemeth that the times are out of joint. What can be more distressing to me, than that though high-born and chaste, I should yet be compelled to enter this public court? Where is that virtue for which these kings were noted? It hath been heard that the kings of ancient days never brought their wedded wives into the public court. Alas, that eternal usage hath disappeared from among the Kauravas.
Else, how is it that the chaste wife of the Pandavas, the sister of Prishata's son, the friend of Vasudeva, is brought before this assembly? Ye Kauravas, I am the wedded wife of king Yudhishthira the just, hailing from the same dynasty to which the King belonged. Tell me now if I am a serving-maid or otherwise. I will cheerfully accept your answer. This mean wretch, this destroyer of the name of the Kurus, is afflicting me hard. Ye Kauravas, I cannot bear it any longer. Ye kings, I desire ye to answer whether ye regard me as won or unwon. I will accept your verdict whatever it be.'

Ofcourse, Mbh is not Hindu text, Hindu texts are Gurbani and some Tibetan Buddhist texts.
 

Vikramjeet

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Don't try to sermonise you little idiot. I asked for a link, either provide or decline. You can't expect every one to be interested in religion can you? to read all the text? Have I said that I am 'know it all' about religion? Any religion?

I asked you a question which is generic, without knowing why, when and what context did that thing happen one cannot generalize and extend the same to cover whole of the society then. Your copy-paste didn't give those details. So I asked for a link.

But, it seems reading didn't have the desired effect on you. You are more impulsive and reactive and generalising than a man who haven't been exposed to them(religious texts). Yes because probably you just 'read'.
That is why for benefit of idiots like you, I just quote relevant portions as I know that likes of you talk with full noise but know little. Then you asked for links which would be for entire texts. if you do not know and are not 'interested' get out of this thread.

Entire page has been quoted to you and you want to know 'full context'? Ignorance mixed with arrogance.
 

ladder

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That is why for benefit of idiots like you, I just quote relevant portions as I know that likes of you talk with full noise but know little. Then you asked for links which would be for entire texts. if you do not know and are not 'interested' get out of this thread.
1. Well you don't own this place, so you can't order anyone out.

2. Yeah, you are a live example, why it is called 'little knowledge is dangerous.'

3. Kindly quote me the noise I created. Let me see what you call noise.

4. Not knowing isn't a crime.

5. Again 'not interested' is a generalisation and a wrong attribute added probably due to your limited reasoning capacity.

6. I asked for the link because, you failed to address what I was asking. I wasn't asking what you pasted. So, I asked for the link to find myself. Clearly I wasn't wrong, you haven't still understood what I was asking.

7. You clearly have more arrogance than knowledge. How many years did you say you are into reading religious scripts?

=========

PS. Bullet points for your easy understanding.
 
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Vikramjeet

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1. Well you don't own this place, so you can't order anyone out.

2. Yeah, you are a live example, why it is called 'little knowledge is dangerous.'

3. Kindly quote me the noise I created. Let me see what you call noise.

4. Not knowing isn't a crime.

5. Again 'not interested' is a generalisation and a wrong attribute added probably due to your limited reasoning capacity.

6. I asked for the link because, you failed to address what I was asking. I wasn't asking what you pasted. So, I asked for the link to find myself. Clearly I wasn't wrong, you haven't still understood what I was asking.

7. You clearly have more arrogance than knowledge. How many years did you say you are into reading religious scripts?

=========

PS. Bullet points for your easy understanding.
OK Whatever. Given that in another thread you are using 'local legend' of some guys from arunachal over what is most sacred book for krishna worshippers that is Bhagvata Purana( written when there were no guys in AP with local legend), i should have been bit cautious.

And this

"Yeah, you are a live example, why it is called 'little knowledge is dangerous.' "


Why not, great knowledge is just typing some sentences and coming up with ridiculous arguments like Rukmini was from AP.
 
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sorcerer

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1. Well you don't own this place, so you can't order anyone out.

2. Yeah, you are a live example, why it is called 'little knowledge is dangerous.'

3. Kindly quote me the noise I created. Let me see what you call noise.

4. Not knowing isn't a crime.

5. Again 'not interested' is a generalisation and a wrong attribute added probably due to your limited reasoning capacity.

6. I asked for the link because, you failed to address what I was asking. I wasn't asking what you pasted. So, I asked for the link to find myself. Clearly I wasn't wrong, you haven't still understood what I was asking.

7. You clearly have more arrogance than knowledge. How many years did you say you are into reading religious scripts?

=========

PS. Bullet points for your easy understanding.
This guy @Vikramjeet has studied ALL the ancient Indian Texts for over a YEAR... An year and he has read all the texts(Thats what he claims and his friends has become a VEDIC SCHOLAR)....now you can understand his ignorance..

How stupid this guy can be.. when the theologists themselves are pondering over ancient text for years altogether to understand it.

He is just trying to paint Christianity in a good light and dragging the characters of Hindu Mythology in bad light.
 
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ladder

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OK Whatever. Given that in another thread you are using 'local legend' of some guys from arunachal over what is most sacred book for krishna worshippers that is Bhagvata Purana( written when there were no guys in AP with local legend), i should have been bit cautious.
What whatever? You have been a complete idiot. The more I am interacting, the more I am discovering the fool you are.

Again you missed the context of what I posted in that thread. As it seems in future I have to write 'fool' proof posts for you.
 

sorcerer

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Most Indians certainly have heard about 'Arthasastra' which really shows how far art of Statescraftmanship had advanced in ancient India. kautilya aka Chanakya who wrote this was quite an influential scholar and his view dominated India a lot. Now, Victorian moralists would be shocked to see this from him. He basically prescribes fines for meeting of man and woman ( if purpose was erotic) One pana is equal to 3 grams of silver ( coins were called pana in Arthasastra)

". She shall pay a fine of 12 panas if she goes out to see another man or for sports. For the same offences committed at night, the fines shall be doubled."

"If a man and a woman make signs to each other with a view to sensual enjoyment, or carry on secret conversation (for the same purpose), the woman shall pay a fine of 24 panas, and the man, double the amount. A woman, holding out her hair, the tie of her dress round her loins, her teeth or her nails, shall pay the first amercement, and a man, doing the same, twice the first amercement."

"For holding conversation in suspicious places, whips may be substituted for fines."

He also limited mobility of Indian women a lot.

"IF under any other excuse than danger, a woman gets out of her husband's house, she shall be fined 6 panas. If she gets out against the order (of her husband) to the contrary, she shall be fined 12 panas. If she goes beyond her neighbouring house (prativesagrihatigatáyah), she shall be fined 6 panas. If she allows into her house her neighbour, takes into her house the alms of any mendicant, or the merchandise of any merchant, she shall be fined 12 panas. If she deals as above though expressly forbidden, she shall be punished with the first amercement. If she goes out beyond the surrounding houses (parigrihátigatáyam), she shall be fined 24 panas."

Kautilya's teacher was bit liberal but he was very harsh.

"If leaving her husband's house, a woman goes to another village, she shall not only pay a fine of 12 panas, but also forfeit her endowment and jewels (sthápyábharanalopascha). If under any other excuse than receiving her subsistence or pilgrimage (bharmádánatirthagamanábhyámanyatra), a woman goes to any other place even in company with an associable man, she shall not only pay a fine of 24 panas, but also lose all kinds of social privileges (sarvadharmalopascha)."



Quasi Talibanist attitude, right?
It was a societal rule not practiced today..
All religious texts do have norms on how people should interact in society..And societal interactions are always strict.. You can see it in Christianity and also in Islam.

Ever thought why such strict rules on woman..
Cuz...
It was more to preserve eugenics and societal order based on clan. In case you miss the whole point and is getting carried away by whatever you are smoking.

Why so? (in all religions)
Cuz...Certain clans had certain charecteristics that needed to be preserved for the societal order ..
 
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ladder

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This guy @Vikramjeet has studied ALL the ancient Indian Texts for over a YEAR... An year and he has read all the texts(Thats what he claims and his friends has become a VEDIC SCHOLAR)....now you can understand his ignorance..

How stupid this guy can be.. when the theologists themselves are pondering over ancient text for years altogether to understand it.

He is just trying to paint Christianity in a good light and dragging the characters of Hindu Mythology in bad light.
This guy doesn't sound mentally sound to me.

LOL! while replying to my first post in this thread, he claims I have been making lot of noise in this thread. :rofl:

This when I hardly post in religious threads and rarely take part in religious debates.

He seems to be a classic clown!
 
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