How Christinaty is saving helpless Dalits from Evil Hindus

Discussion in 'Religion & Culture' started by Rowdy, Aug 2, 2015.

  1. Rowdy

    Rowdy Co ja kurwa czytam! Senior Member

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    Dalit Catholics continue to battle upper caste aggression

    Why do Dalits convert to Christianity? To break out of the Hindu caste system, you might say. Not completely true, as we found out in Harobele, just 60 km from Bengaluru. Christianity entered the region centuries ago. The Catholic mission here, one of the oldest in Karnataka, was established in 1675; 980 of the 1,000 families here are Catholics.

    Catholicism, however, has offered no escape from untouchability for Dalits like Arogya Swamy (37), whose family left Hinduism and settled in Harobele three centuries ago. For proof, we enter an untidy little tea shop pretending as if we don't know each other. I am served in a steel tumbler like everybody else and offered a chair. Swamy is served his tea in a disposable plastic cup. He hesitates to sit along with the other customers; he stands outside. As we sip our tea in silence, he gestures toward the barber shop next door. The barber flings a tennis ball into the distance and shoos away a group of boys with a stick. "Those boys were Dalit Catholics. The barber didn't want them to pollute his shop with their ball," says Swamy later.


    [​IMG]
    Arogya Swamy (right standing) cannot enter hotels and barber shops in Harobele.The last time dalits tried to force their way into hotels and barber shops, he says, upper caste Catholics boycotted the establishments until the old order was restored.

    Caste hostilities in this village came to a boil this January when more than a hundred dalit Catholic families were forced to spend a night in the fields to hide from a rampaging mob of upper-caste Catholics. The issue made it to the news only in February when activists of the NGO, All India Human Rights Council (AIHRC) complained to the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) that the police had not registered an FIR even a month after the well-orchestrated riot. Although the intervention of the activists has ensured the registration of a case under the SC/ST Atrocities Act, a senior policeman at the local station says, on condition of anonymity, "They (victims) are Catholic. How can they claim relief under the Atrocities Act? They lost their Scheduled Caste status when they converted," he says.

    "The attackers were abusing the dalits using casteist slurs. They kept repeating that dalits had forgotten their place," says local priest, Fr Chinnappa, recalling the riot with horror. A Dalit from Tamil Nadu, Fr Chinnappa was ordered to stay away by violent Catholic men from the Vokkaliga (Gowda) and Golla caste as they attacked Dalit men, women and children, and destroyed houses. "They didn't even spare the cattle and the dogs," says Naveen Kumar whose father Uppar Raju was one of the first to be attacked.

    Chinnaraju Sandhyagoppa - a resident Vokkaliga Catholic, local appointee of the powerful Vokkaliga leader and Karnataka energy minister DK Shivakumar and prime accused in the January violence against dalits - feels all the trouble in the village started when "outsiders" turned up. Denying his role in the riot, he says there was "no enmity between higher castes and lower castes in the village till these NGOs started entering the village. They teach them about Ambedkar and Communism and try to draw them away from the church. Why do we need Ambedkar when we have Jesus?"

    "I have built roads for them, helped get them get jobs and start businesses," Sandhyagoppa adds. "Instead of showing gratitude, they betray the community and misuse the Atrocities Act against us."

    "Some people here are considered untouchable because of their caste. The burial ground is divided according to caste, Dalits are forced to cook and eat separately during community feasts and festivals. They were attacked because of their caste. If all these atrocities are being committed because of caste, how can it not come under the Atrocities Act?" asks Y Mariswamy of the AIHRC who came along for HT's first visit to the village on May 6. When HT revisited the village on May 27, residents at both ends of the caste ladder confirmed Mariswamy's claims about the barriers to common burial and inter-caste dining. The visit showed that the trouble in the village started generations before the so-called 'outsiders' entered.

    [​IMG]

    Dalits, who took us on a motorbike tour of the village, pointed out that all the older roads connect only upper caste properties. Many roads leading to Dalit areas are now metalled but are narrower. "Forty years ago, we had to take prior permission from the upper caste leaders before using the main roads passing through their neighbourhoods," says M Michael (68), the owner of successful furniture business in Bengaluru who continues to face discrimination in the village because he's Dalit. Swamy says that even today they have to take permission from the upper caste landlords to cut across their farms. After the January riot, the upper- caste landlords prevented Dalits from passing through their farmlands for weeks and relented only after the police got involved, says Uppar Raju. Upper caste Catholics own most of the prime farmland here and their holdings are also much larger. Dalit landholdings actually shrank after they converted generations ago shows a study conducted in 1996 by Prof S Japhet, now the director of the Centre for Study of Social Exclusion and Inclusive Policy at National Law School of India-Bengaluru.

    Conducted as part of his MPhil dissertation, Japhet's study of Harobele (the only study conducted in what is, arguably, Karnataka's oldest Catholic village) shows that by the 1980s, the number of small Dalit famers had decreased from 15 per cent of the population to 2.5 per cent. The number of medium farmers fell from 17.5 per cent to 2 per cent. The percentage of large Dalit farmers plummeted from 2.5 to zero. The study found that it was common for Upper Caste Catholics to hold Dalits as bonded labourers until the 1960s. Many Dalits gave up their lands to the upper castes to secure the freedom of the bonded labourers.

    "Upper caste Catholics got incensed when Dalit catholics in Harobele started associating with anti-caste activists from outside and started asserting themselves. Church officials too have traditionally prevented Dalit Christians from associating with Hindu or Buddhist Dalit movements to keep the situation below a boil," says Mariswamy. Associations with Dalit groups, says Uppar Raju, has opened the community's eyes to the potential of BR Ambedkar's ideas. "I, too, heard about Ambedkar only when I went to Delhi to participate in a rally demanding Scheduled Caste status for Dalit Christians a few years ago," he confesses.


    ."In their eagerness to follow ritualistic Catholicism, the Indian Church ignored the basic principle of equality that Jesus preached. The Gentiles and the Samaritans were the shudras and the untouchable Dalits of Israel during Jesus' time. His fight was to liberate these oppressed people. But unfortunately, the Catholic church of India never understood the radical side of Jesus."
    [​IMG]
    - Kancha Ilaiah, Hyderabad-based Dalit intellectual and author of Why I am not a Hindu
    ."Whether it's Hinduism or Catholicism, the priests are always Brahmins."
    - Franklin Caesar, a Supreme Court lawyer who filed a PIL seeking inclusion of Dalit Christians and Dalit Muslims in the Scheduled Caste list.



    The irony or tragedy of the entire situation in Harobele is that the two main Dalit Catholic sub-castes - Holeyas and Madigas - are also locked in battle for social supremacy. They don't eat in one another's homes or inter-marry. "Nobody wants to be at the bottom of the pyramid," says Prof Japhet.

    "I am ashamed that caste-based discrimination is so openly practised in a village where I'm the priest," says Fr Chinnappa. But he can do little to change a social system that has existed under the nose of the Catholic administration for three centuries. Fr Chinnappa considers ending casteism in Harobele his prime duty. He says he's waiting for the right time to subtly bring up the issue during a church event. :lol: It is not clear how much support Fr Chinnappa will find from the church administration. The Archbishop of the Bengaluru diocese, Fr Bernard Moras, himself from an upper caste lineage, refuses to accept that the church has turned a blind eye to the plight of Dalits in the village. "The villagers might be influenced by the surrounding non-Christian villages. Casteism is a sin. However, there is no discrimination inside the church premises," he says, offering no explanation for why even the dead rest according to the caste order in the Harobele Church's cemetery. "Until 1997, when the new church was constructed, Dalits were made to sit separately during sermons. When I was a child, Dalits here were not served food plates but on stone tablets even during church festivities," says Andrewsappa (82). Naveen Kumar, who finished his MBA in Human Resource Management from a church-run institution and works for an online retail company in Bengaluru, says, "I would never have reached this position without church help. But it's the same church that looks the other way when I am humiliated by people who are far less qualified but belong to an upper caste." He says that the church he attends in Bengaluru is located in an area dominated by a right wing Hindu outfit. "We maintain a low profile fearing the Hindu group in Bengaluru but in our village people from our own community treat us like animals."

    [​IMG]
    (Andrewsappa, 82, a Dalit Christian in Harobele Sudipto Mondal/HT)

    In mid-June, Vokkaliga Catholics barged into the house of a Dalit Catholic man and beat him till he fainted. The victim, who is too scared to file a police complaint or be identified by this newspaper, was attacked because he spoke to a Vokkaliga girl who passed in front of his house.

    DALIT PRIESTS SEEK POPE'S INTERVENTIONIn the strictly regimented Catholic establishment of India, it was seen as a major breach of discipline when four Dalit priests complained to Pope Francis accusing the Indian Catholic church of being casteist. The June 24, 2013 memorandum warned that Dalit Catholics are "getting disillusioned and getting ready for an exodus" and sought an "end to untouchability in all levels of the Catholic Church". The move did not result in punitive action but the priests' followers were badly hit. "Many of their families were threatened with excommunication," says one of the priests.

    Fr S Lourduswamy of the Vellore Diocese in Tamil Nadu is the only one of the four priests willing to be named and quoted. He says that despite the risk they took, the Pope's response was disappointing. "We had also provided statistics (see table) to show that Dalits are largely excluded from the priestly ranks. But the Pope's office said that there was no casteism in the selection of priests and merit was the only criteria," he says. "They are essentially saying that Dalits don't have the merit to become priests." On May 26, the Bishop of the Vellore Diocese, Fr Periyangam Soudararaj made another trip to the Vatican to meet the Pope with a fresh memorandum. He is yet to return to India with news of what happened to this latest effort.

    'There's always the fear of excommunication'For 25 years, the Dalit Christian Liberation Movement (DCLM) have been demanding protection of simple civil rights of Dalit Catholics such as the right to sit along with upper-caste Catholics during church meetings, the right to inter-dine and inter-marry with upper caste Catholics and equal treatment during church-controlled events. On June 30, DCLM president, Mary John, and Kudunthai Arasan, founder of the Kumbakonnam-based party, Viduthalai Tamil Puligal Katchi, complained against Pope Francis to the UN Secretary General and marked copies to the United Nations' Committee on Elimination of Racial Discrimination, Committee against Torture, the Human Rights Committee as well as several judges of the International Criminal Court. They are demanding that the UN revoke the Permanent Observer status enjoyed by Pope Francis as the head of the Vatican and all of the Catholic world. :lol:

    [​IMG]
    Mary John

    Excerpts from an interview with Mary John:

    What has been the response from the UN?They have been in touch with us for some clarifications. Some senior UN officials have told us orally that this is a very serious issue and will be dealt with accordingly.

    Has there been a backlash from the Indian Catholic establishment?They are avoiding confronting us directly but our followers are being harassed. We have many silent supporters among Dalit Catholics but they are afraid to come out and agitate with us. Hindu Dalits are better organised than us. For Catholic Dalits, there is always the fear of being excommunicated for 'anti-church' activities. :lol:

    Are other Christian orders less casteist?The DCLA mainly works within the Catholic community. We do associate with Dalit groups working to eradicate casteism in other Christian denominations. From them we know that casteism is perhaps worse among Catholics. The entire Catholic Church in India is controlled by Brahmin converts from Goa, Mangalore and Kerala. The first time a Dalit Catholic was made a Bishop in Tamil Nadu was in 1994. Dalits in other denominations had risen to positions of power decades before that.

    When Hindu fundamentalists oppose conversions, proponents of the Church say conversion offers an escape from the Hindu caste order.These are clearly double standards. Before criticising Hinduism, the church must look within. In Kandhamal or in Karnataka, it is Dalit Christians who are bearing the brunt of attacks from Hindu fundamentalists. There is also a traditional affinity between upper caste Catholics and the Hindu Right. Look at Goa where upper caste Catholics helped the BJP to come to power.
    http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...-upper-caste-aggression/article1-1375632.aspx
    @blueblood @Screambowl @roma
     
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  3. Screambowl

    Screambowl Senior Member Senior Member

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    Yes we know about this ..

    But that era is gone. Classes were confused by Caste in India.

    Britishers still follow blood lineage to keep up their crown. But they don't face any such problem in their country.
     
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  4. hit&run

    hit&run Elite Member Elite Member

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    Vaticunts have made a new excuse Like our neighbor makes excuses for all their evils.

    Vaticunts say that because of Hindusim we are not able to treat our Dalit converts equally. I saw one aggressive new convert paddling it on twitter few days back.

    What the .............
     
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  5. Peter

    Peter Senior Member Senior Member

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    As I have stated in a previous thread that converting to another faith cannot bring respect or social upliftment for the Dalits. Only education and economic upliftment will save them. Rather than converting to different faiths they should become atheists and have a sense of self respect.
     
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  6. punjab47

    punjab47 महाबलामहावीर्यामहासत्यपराक्रमासर्वाग्रेक्षत्रियाजट Banned

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    We Christian/Muslim can't attack the Military directly in Bharat, so let's try to attack the foundation of the society i.e the common man.

    Good strategy, problem honestly is...

    Guru Gobind Singh Ji pre-empted you.
     
  7. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    I have no sympathy for these losers who have converted and yet have not let go off their "Dalit tag" for reservation purposes. They can all go fck themselves for all I care. Dalits in Hindu society on the other hand need to be taken care of. We owe it to them
     
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  8. punjab47

    punjab47 महाबलामहावीर्यामहासत्यपराक्रमासर्वाग्रेक्षत्रियाजट Banned

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    I just see it as, they are letting us know which ones need sewa, & which ones are our brothers.
     
  9. punjab47

    punjab47 महाबलामहावीर्यामहासत्यपराक्रमासर्वाग्रेक्षत्रियाजट Banned

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    We don't owe anyone anything, it's our dharam to protect prajya.

    They are not safe in an 'abrahamic' society. Economic development is just enhancing their ability to assist us.

    The shudra builds the weapons
    The vaishya finances them
    The Bramin finds the weak points
     
  10. avknight1408

    avknight1408 Regular Member

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    Lots of Dalits have converted. But on records they remain as Hindu so that they can get Reservation.
     
  11. I_PLAY_BAD

    I_PLAY_BAD Regular Member

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    I seriously cannot understand the logic behind spreading Christianity around, especially in India. Billions of dollars pour in to India for conversion purpose and that is the reason GoI banned several NGOs recently. Christianity is not a better religion than Hindu. The practices and the way of living formulated by Hinduism, man no other religion can match it. Of course few powers misinterpreted the religious texts but that is not an excuse for Christianity to flex its muscles. I hear people who convert to Christianity are not respected by their new "Brothers". Is it not a joke ?
    The moment you try to impose your faith on other, your religion starts to lose respect and that is what is happening with Islam too.
     
  12. OneGrimPilgrim

    OneGrimPilgrim Senior Member Senior Member

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    whr invaders hv been eulogised, heroes binned!!
    [​IMG]

    -----------------------------------------
     
  13. Hari Sud

    Hari Sud Senior Member Senior Member

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    Explain it to me how the lives and economics of life change if you change from Hinduism to Christianity. Propaganda aside, they stay the same except their names are changed. None of them from landless labour become landlords. Or a street cleaner ever become a deputy commissioner because he changed his religion.

    If you stayed Hindu and thru the reserved quota passed the IAS exam, you probably would become a deputy commissioner, but not by conversion.

    But propaganda in the name of Christ sometime misleads. Jesus Christ in his 26 years of life said no such things which people attribute to him as saviour. It is later high ups of the Roman Empire in 3rd and 4th century AD (Constantine and Justin) converted to Christianity themselves and then re-invented Christ as a gentle soul, saving the mankind in the Roman Empire from the violence of that era. Everything said in the name of Jesus Christ today, in fact is invented 400 years after his death.

    So it is propaganda invented by Popes and Bishops which is used today to convert not well informed people into conversion and with the promise of economic uplift.

    Not true.
     
  14. asingh10

    asingh10 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Ah Kancha Ilaiah, media's favorite Dalit rights activist.

    Not many know that he is a golla (yadav) not "dalit" as he claims, a very prominent, dominant land owning OBC caste in Andhra Pradesh. Not even a Dalit. OBC land owning castes are actually foremost in attacking and persecuting the Dalits, but this is kept well hidden from the foolish masses of India who just swallow the "oppressor upper caste" narrative hook, line and sinker.
     
  15. asingh10

    asingh10 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Dalits and Sudras actually have a fine tradition of producing warriors, saints and even kings. Look at the sway that saints from backward communities like Sant Kabir, Sant Ravidas, Sant Tukaram, Sant Namdev, Nayannar Saints, Sant Chokhamela, Sant Kanhopatra etc have among the masses of India. One of the highest flights of Vedanta is actually delivered by a so called outcaste butcher to an arrogant Brahmin, its called "Vyadha Gita" and part of the Mahabharata. Upanishads has records of Sudras who became learned rishis. Matanga, Valmiki, Vyasa, Parashara, all from alleged fallen origins. Lord Buddha took Sudras, Chandalas and Adivasi jatis as his disciples they became arahats of the highest order that are still venerated. The Sikh guru granth sahib itself contains writings of many saints from the so called backward castes. Guru Gobind Singh Ji turned many outcastes into warriors and saints, nihang warriors are entirely from backward castes. There is a mahar regiment and sikh light infantry regiment in the Indian army to this day.

    I'm not denying that oppression was not there, but a significant part of it was also the result of feudal system imposed on us. Zamindari etc introduced by Brits and Mughals brought in feudal farmland ownership concept, feudalizing the society causing exploitation. I suggest KS Lal's "Growth of Scheduled Tribes and Castes in Medieval India" where KS Lal astutely notes that "Caste" problem is largely a consequence of loss of political power (self-governance) by Hindus and not a social problem. A century of noise, but have we really gotten anywhere near the problem, diagnosis or solution ?
     
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  16. punjab47

    punjab47 महाबलामहावीर्यामहासत्यपराक्रमासर्वाग्रेक्षत्रियाजट Banned

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    Suggest people read the last two again:

    Replying to first one" Because it's their religion, West has been on MASSIVE conversion drive over past century, while hiding behind secularism.

    http://www.pewforum.org/2011/12/19/global-christianity-exec/

    1910, about two-thirds of the world’s Christians lived in Europe, where the bulk of Christians had been for a millennium, only about a quarter of all Christians live in Europe (26%). A plurality – more than a third – now are in the Americas (37%). About one in every four Christians lives in sub-Saharan Africa (24%), and about one-in-eight is found in Asia and the Pacific (13%).

    [​IMG]

    The number of Christians around the world has nearly quadrupled in the last 100 years, from about 600 million in 1910 to more than 2 billion in 2010.Christians make up about the same portion of the world’s population today (32%) as they did a century ago (35%).

    This apparent stability, however, masks a momentous shift. Although Europe and the Americas still are home to a majority of the world’s Christians (63%), that share is much lower than it was in 1910 (93%).
     
  17. punjab47

    punjab47 महाबलामहावीर्यामहासत्यपराक्रमासर्वाग्रेक्षत्रियाजट Banned

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    As this is definitely a security issue, I suggest we have a 'Christian Conversions' thread as there are many threads in the forum history on this, better to have one thread.

    @pmaitra
     
  18. jouni

    jouni Senior Member Senior Member

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    Christianity today is the most tolerant religion, no wonder it is spreading fast. Not to mention that Christian countries are the most developed in the world. Long gone are the times of crusades when wars were fought for religion. Now democracy is the goal of most wars. Spreading democracy with massive firepower and technology driven armed forces is the modern way. Sometimes spreading of democrscy also fails, mostly because not all the people are ready to take individual responsability of their lives. Luckily then Christian aid organizations can step in and clear the mess. Christianity with democracy is like tandem charge rpg....there is no escape from it.
     
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  19. jackprince

    jackprince Turning into a frog Senior Member

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    I "liked" your post, for giving me a good laugh. Glad to have such a man of humour among us. I hope you were joking, right?
     
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  20. jouni

    jouni Senior Member Senior Member

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    I do not know, sometimes I think that were would India be now if Brits had introduced to you Democracy AND Christianity....
     
  21. jouni

    jouni Senior Member Senior Member

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    I do not know, sometimes I think that were would India be now if Brits had introduced to you Democracy AND Christianity....
     

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