How China Betrays Pakistan using empty sloganeering

Discussion in 'China' started by ajtr, May 27, 2012.

  1. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    China bank runs away from Iran- Pakistan oil pipeline : Latest chapter in the Pakistan China friendship - "deeper than oceans and higher than mountains".But when it comes to money we are not friends , so is the latest chapter in Pakistan-China relationship?As China and Bank ICBC betrayed Pakistan and its "warm friendship".The red communist (fake communist more capitalist ) shows his true colors.


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    ISLAMABAD: A consortium led by the Industrial and Commercial Bank of China (ICBC) has ‘run away’ from providing financial advisory services for the Iran-Pakistan gas pipeline project apparently because of the US opposition to the plan and forced the government to look for alternative financing options.

    “It is apprehended that a probable reason for not signing the agreement (to act as financial adviser for the project) till date could be geopolitical situation in the region,” a summary presented to the Economic Coordination Committee (ECC) of the cabinet on Tuesday said.

    A meeting of the ECC presided over by Finance Minister Dr Abdul Hafeez Shaikh was informed by Petroleum Secretary Mohammad Ejaz Chaudhry that the Chinese consortium’s leader had “run away from the project”.

    It was informed that on the directives of decision-making forums, “a top class financial adviser had been appointed through international competitive bidding following procurement rules”.

    The contract with Habib Bank and Ernst & Young Ford Rhodes Sidat Hyder (EYFRSH) — two other members of the advisory consortium — had been signed by Inter-State gas Systems (ISGS), a state owned company, in the first week of January but the ICBC had been delaying the signing of a formal agreement. Now, the HBL and the EYFRSH were also not giving a clear response, the meeting was informed.

    “The petroleum ministry informed that the existing parties of the ICBC and HBL are showing less interest in the IP project, so the ECC may go for other options,” an official statement issued after the meeting said.

    The ‘front-end engineering design’ feasibility and a detailed route survey are being done by a consortium comprising the ILF of China and Nespak and are expected to be completed by June, on the basis of which bids will be invited for the 800km pipeline inside Pakistan for an engineering, procurement and construction (EPC) contract at an estimated cost of $1.5 billion.

    The project involves a debt-equity ratio of 70:30 with the government having a majority share in equity.

    Tender documents have been issued to pipeline suppliers and EPC contractors so that the contracts can be executed by the third quarter of this year. The contracts will form a major portion of the funding requirement for the project.

    It has been proposed that as an alternative to the arrangement with the Chinese bank, the government should route the Infrastructure Development Cess recently imposed on gas consumers to Pakistani banks who should then create a fund with the government. The funding can be routed to the ISGS to meet financial requirements of the project that would help reduce the tariff for imported gas. Initial estimates suggest that the cess will be sufficient to meet the project’s funding requirements.

    The ECC was requested to allow cancellation of the ICBC contract and to approach the second bidder, comprising the United Bank, Burj Capital Pakistan, Eco Trade Development Bank, Fieldstone Group and Islamic Corporation for Development of Private Sector, to sign a contract to provide debt and private equity for the project on similar terms.

    The committee was also urged to consider government-to-government offers from China, Russia and Iran for providing funds for the project.

    Iran has offered $300 million and Russia has offered to provide funding if the EPC contract is given to its companies without bidding. To accept the options, the government will have to bypass the Public Procurement Regulatory Authority’s rules.

    The ECC constituted a committee comprising ministers for petroleum and water and power, State Bank governor, deputy chairman of the Planning Commission and secretaries of economic affairs, finance and petroleum to prepare recommendations within four days so that work on laying the pipeline could be started by September to meet the completion deadline of December 2014.
     
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  3. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    Here Pakistan act as china's cat's paws in south asia and china betrays pakistan by investing in India.

    China will not risk economic ties with India for Pakistan: Ahmed Rashid

    It might be an 'all-weather ally' of Pakistan, but China is not prepared to treat India as an enemy as it would never want to jeopardise its whopping $ 60 billion trade with the country, eminent Pakistani author and watcher of the region, Ahmed Rashid, says in his new book.

    Economic considerations mean that Pakistan can no longer rely on China for full or "unconditional support" to it against India, says Rashid, in his forthcoming book, 'Pakistan on the Brink: The Future of America, Pakistan and Afghanistan' that is slated to hit the stands on March 19.

    "China wants a strategic relationship with Pakistan to balance a rising India, and Pakistan has shown a willingness to provide it.

    "But China is not prepared to treat India as an enemy, as Pakistan wants it to; rather, China wants the two countries to live in peace, not in a state of proxy war,"
    Rashid writes.

    In his latest book running into more than 230 pages, Rashid says that once upon a time, China strongly supported Pakistan's position on Kashmir, but since the mid-1990s it is no longer the case.

    "China has a massive $ 60 billion trade and business relationship with India, which it envisages will rise, six fold in the next ten years. China will not forsake that by throwing its support wholly and unconditionally to Pakistan," he says.

    Many Pakistanis, he says, believe that if its relations with the United States finally break down, the lost economic aid can be replaced by China.

    China is geographically close to Pakistan; it has in the past funded some major infrastructure projects, such as dams, ports, and roads; it has helped substantially with Pakistan's nuclear weapons and nuclear energy programmes; and it has provided the military with several billion dollars' worth of heavy weapons at cut-rate prices--tanks, ships, submarines, and fighter aircraft.

    "But the China-Pakistan relationship is essentially military to military, rather than people to people. (Outside the military, Pakistanis don't visit China and don't speak Chinese.) The $ 9 billion trade between the two countries is heavily weighted in China's favour," Rashid says.

    Rashid, who has authored several books, including "Descent into Chaos," which is now considered as one of the standard reference books on the region's recent history, argues that China cannot oblige Pakistan the way the United States does.

    "It does not give cash or loans for budgetary support --- it gave only one loan of $ 500 million in 2001.

    "It does not give development aid -- in fact, Beijing has no government development agency to distribute such aid," Rashid says, adding that during the 2005 earthquake and the 2010 floods, China's financial help was negligible, and many Pakistanis criticised its lack of presence.

    The Americans provided hundreds of millions of dollars and dozens of helicopters, but the Chinese provided neither, Rashid writes.

    "Moreover, China lacks the clout the United States has with the international lending institutions that are so vital to Pakistan, and with the Europeans and Japan, who are Pakistan's main aid providers," he says.

    "China is now just as deeply concerned about Pakistan's failures and the growth of extremism there as the United States. Its diplomats discreetly point out that Pakistan cannot even protect Chinese citizens, several of whom have been killed.

    "China is also deeply concerned about the inability of the government to carry out economic reforms," Rashid says.

    In addition to this, China is now increasingly becoming worried about extremism and the threat that it now faces from Islamic militancy at home.
     
  4. Dovah

    Dovah Untermensch Senior Member

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    Trouble in paradise. LMAO!
     
  5. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    Pakistan’s China Syndrome

    At the height of Pakistan’s crisis in relations with the United States, Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani reminded his Chinese guest of the words he had used to describe its relationship with China. ”Pak-China friendship is higher than mountains, deeper than oceans, stronger than steel and sweeter than honey.” In a press release issued by the prime minister’s office during a visit to Islamabad by Chinese Public Security Minister Meng Jianzhu, Gilani also promised China that “‘your friends are our friends, your enemies are our enemies and your security is our security.”

    It was language designed to show that even after Admiral Mike Mullen’s assertion that the Afghan militant Haqqani network was effectively a proxy of the Pakistan army, China – Pakistan’s “all weather friend” – stood at its side. The Pakistan media enthusiastically played up Meng’s visit, jumping on a relatively small offer of financial help and a dreamed-of defence pact with China to build up hopes of Chinese support.

    Faced with such hyperbole, I flipped across to the website of the People’s Daily to see what it had to say about Pakistan. At the time I looked, there was no mention of Pakistan. It did however give prominence to a story about China and India holding a strategic dialogue to build economic ties.

    The comparison is instructive in so many ways.

    First of all Pakistan is not the centre of the world even though those of us who cover it tend to think it is. And China is a big country, setting itself on a trajectory to outstrip the United States. It pays far less attention to India than India does to China, let alone becoming as obsessed with Pakistan’s problems as Pakistan is with casting China in the role of saviour.

    Secondly, Pakistan has consistently over-estimated the support it is likely to get from China for decades. As far back as its 1965 war with India – launched in a failed bid to wrest control of Kashmir – it misjudged China’s willingness to intervene on its behalf. At the time, Pakistan-China relations were riding high. China had just inflicted a humiliating defeat on India in a 1962 border war. Pakistan had then – in Indian eyes – added insult to injury by reaching a provisional border agreement with China and agreeing to build the strategic Karakoram Highway to link it properly to India’s enemy. Yet during the 1965 war, Pakistan’s expectations of Chinese help were proved disastrously wrong.

    At the time of the 1971 war with India – a crisis bigger than the one faced by Pakistan today – China gave no military support when Pakistan was split in two with Indian backing to carve out the new country of Bangladesh. The United States gave little real help, either, beyond deploying the 7th Fleet to the Bay of Bengal - something that is bitterly remembered by Pakistan – but somehow China’s own record was forgotten.

    Indeed history is so stacked up in favour of the argument that Pakistan has consistently over-estimated its likely support from China that it is hard to believe the Pakistan government does not know this already. If it had any doubts it would have cleared these up when the government first sought Chinese financial help in 2008 only to be rebuffed and sent packing to the IMF - a decision which left Pakistan more vulnerable to U.S. influence.

    And even without the historical evidence, it would be clear that China’s concerns about Pakistan-based Islamist militants focused on its own Xinjiang province would mean that Beijing would be unlikely to come out all guns blazing in defence of Pakistan’s right to tolerate or support groups like the Haqqani network. China is also steadily building economic relations with India – which if anything is even more sensitive than the United States to any hint of tolerance for militant groups by Pakistan or its allies.

    In other words, it is reasonable to assume the Pakistan government knows full well that there are limits to Chinese support in its confrontation with the United States. And that by extension its “higher than mountains, deeper than oceans” talk is designed for a domestic audience.

    And this is where it gets even more interesting. What does the government’s public language about China tell us about Pakistan and particularly its civilian-military relations?

    Step back for a moment and consider that Mullen’s comments have created a huge nationalistic backlash in Pakistan. Whether by design or default, the biggest beneficiary of this backlash is the Pakistan army as the one institution which can defend the country against any American military attack. (Watch this “war video” clip from Pakistan television celebrating the prowess of Pakistan’s armed forces to see how the American threats are being played domestically.)

    The civilian government has never been able to wrest control over foreign and security policy from the Pakistan army. It had an opportunity after the raid by U.S. forces who found and killed Osama bin Laden on May 2 – a raid which deeply embarrassed the Pakistan army – but did not do so.

    With the latest crisis in U.S.-Pakistan relations, English-language newspapers have suggested that the civilian government again seize the opportunity to assert its authority – taking advantage of a multi-party conference called by Prime Minister Gilani for Sept. 29 to discuss the situation.

    ”If the events of May 2 did not result in attempts to increase civilian oversight, surely elected representatives should seize Pakistan’ s current embarrassment — and the economic and security risk it presents — as an opportunity to try to correct the balance of power,” Dawn newspaper wrote in an editorial.

    The Express Tribune suggested the civilian government was trying to find ”a more sensible and pragmatic approach” than the military, showing the existence of ”two centres of power at work in the country”. While the Pakistan army stands accused by the Americans of running the Haqqani network as a proxy – an allegation it denies – “when the all-party conference is held, hopefully the participants will realise that it is not in Pakistan’s interest to allow terrorists safe havens on its soil or allow such elements to launch attacks on other countries from inside Pakistan,” it said.

    So what would a civilian government seeking to assert its influence over foreign policy and adopt a more pragmatic approach do?

    1) Encourage the hawks, the populists and jingoists, and the anti-American right by insisting that Pakistan has a superpower ally of its own which will defend it down to the deepest ocean and up to the highest mountain? 2) Avoid hyperbole in the interests of convincing the people of Pakistan of the limits of Chinese support and the need to work – somehow – with the United States?

    The visit by China’s Meng probably told us more than we realise. It did not tell us very much about what China will do – if past history is anything to go by it will do very little and try to keep itself out of the fray. But it did tell us rather a lot about Pakistan – and the likelihood of the country’s civilian and military leaders closing ranks in the face of American pressure.
     
  6. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    China's Pakistan Conundrum:The End of the All-Weather Friendship

    China is often called an "all-weather friend" to Pakistan -- a strategic partner, a reliable source of trade and aid, and Islamabad's closest military ally. Pakistani Prime Minister Yousef Raza Gilani has described the friendship between the two countries as "higher than mountains, deeper than oceans, stronger than steel, and sweeter than honey." In September, he told the visiting Chinese Public Security Minister Meng Jianzhu, "Your friends are our friends," continuing, "your enemies are our enemies, and your security is our security."

    But do things look so straightforward when viewed from Beijing? To be sure, Chinese money pours into places Western cash fears to tread. But Beijing is not oblivious to risk. In fact, Chinese money flows disproportionately to investments that carry little to no risk and deliver returns that, however modest, are predictable. Moreover, at least some Chinese companies have proved willing to abandon investments as their perception of risk has risen. In September, for example, Kingho, a large private Chinese miner, is reported to have abandoned a proposed $19 billion investment to build a coal mine and power and chemical plants in Pakistan's Sindh province after reassessing investment and security risks.

    Indeed, Beijing's investment calculus is increasingly based on a sophisticated balancing of three types of risk: geopolitical, political, and financial.

    Geopolitical risk (not least China's rivalry with India) has long led Beijing to support Islamabad through thick and thin. Friendly ties between the two help satisfy four Chinese strategic objectives: They ensure security and stability in China's western provinces and along its continental Asian border; anchor China's poorer western provinces in a web of cross-border economic activity; bottle up India in the subcontinent, forestalling the emergence of a continental-sized rival and precluding more extensive Indian security activities in East Asia; and assure that no other major power, particularly the United States, advances its interests in continental Asia at China's expense through, for instance, military deployments or permanent access arrangements.

    In recent years, these four objectives have become ever more pressing, reinforcing Beijing's inclination to support Pakistan. Take the issue of securing China's western border. The drawdown of U.S. forces in Afghanistan will, unavoidably, prompt serious questions in Beijing about Kabul's capacity to maintain security. That, in turn, will prompt still larger questions about whether Pakistan and Central Asian governments can suppress extremist groups and ideologies that may emanate from Afghanistan and Pakistan's tribal areas and bleed across the Chinese frontier.

    Beijing also aims to use Islamabad to box out New Delhi in Afghanistan and the broader region. Thus, India's expanding reach into East Asia is no doubt reinforcing China's reflexive tilt toward Pakistan. Until now, India has been, at most, a third-tier Chinese strategic concern -- distantly behind internal insecurity and challenges in the East Asian littoral. But India's rapid economic growth has given it a growing strategic profile beyond South Asia. India is becoming an Asian power and a global player. It is deepening defense ties with Australia, Japan, Singapore, and Vietnam, four countries that are wary of China's rise and also are increasingly close to the United States. And New Delhi has signed free trade agreements with South Korea, Singapore, and the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN), as well as a comprehensive economic partnership with Japan. As India's strategic reach expands, a continuing rivalry with Pakistan that preoccupies its diplomacy and pulls its attention back to its own neighborhood remains a net positive for Beijing.

    Through this traditional geopolitical prism, then, Beijing's relationship with Islamabad appears unassailable. But Beijing no longer has the luxury of looking exclusively through this single lens. Increasingly, it also balances the political, and especially financial, risks to its interests.

    Chinese nationals in Pakistan have come under unprecedented attack in recent years. And Beijing is ever more sensitive to protecting those citizens -- mostly engineers and other skilled workers -- abroad. Libya proved a watershed in this regard because of the scope and sheer scale of the Chinese presence there. The onset of violence yielded a robust debate in China about the state's responsibilities to its citizens overseas. Sensitive to domestic perceptions and pressures, Beijing undertook its largest ever noncombatant evacuation, removing some 35,000 Chinese nationals from Libya by chartered merchant vessels, chartered and military aircraft, and overland buses. The Chinese navy also dispatched a frigate to support the operation, an unprecedented long-range operational deployment.

    This means that Islamabad cannot forever presume that Chinese workers and money will stay in Pakistan if those assets come under attack on a larger scale. Beijing has shown little stomach for telling Islamabad to rein in anti-India insurgent groups that operate from Pakistan, such as Lashkar-e-Taiba. But those groups that have killed or kidnapped Chinese nationals are another matter. And China appears to have begun sorting and distinguishing these anti-India proxies from domestically focused groups, such as the Baloch separatists or pro-Taliban elements that could pose a more existential threat to Chinese interests. Balochistan has seen repeated attacks on Chinese nationals, including a 2004 bombing that killed three engineers working at the Gwadar port and a 2006 attack on a bus near Hub. In response to one kidnapping case, conducted by elements associated with the Lal Masjid in Islamabad, Beijing placed ferocious pressure on the Pakistan army to intervene.{my comment:china will face the backlash in Beijing for forcing Pakistani army to kill its own people in Baluchistan and lal masjid operation}

    But it is investment risks, not geopolitical or political ones, that are more likely to alter China's long-standing calculus in Pakistan. Chinese money generally follows the flag, yet global trends suggest that Beijing is becoming vastly more sensitive to investment constraints and macroeconomic conditions. It is often taken for granted that Chinese companies can bear more risk than their Western counterparts and that Beijing will underwrite the kinds of investments from which most other governments and firms would shy away. But as China's global reach has grown, so, too, has its economic incentive to revisit these practices.

    There are, for example, intriguing parallels between China's conundrum in Pakistan and the problem it faces in Europe. In both cases, debt-laden economies have aggressively sought to attract a portion of Beijing's considerable stock of investment capital -- its $3 trillion pool of foreign exchange reserves. But Beijing is weighing such activities against the many problems it must now manage at home. Investment in such environments has grown more difficult to sell domestically. As one pithy post put it on Weibo (a Chinese version of Twitter): "Better to save [debt-burdened] Wenzhou than to rescue [debt-burdened] Europe!" And when China does invest abroad, it is under enormous pressure to ensure a positive return.

    So it matters more than ever that Pakistan faces an array of economic constraints, including a debt-to-GDP ratio that crossed 60 percent in 2010; painful debt service obligations to its creditors; a large fiscal deficit; double-digit inflation; a depreciating rupee; a trade deficit worsened by high global commodity prices; and above all, the lack of a credible growth strategy. Chinese financiers will be increasingly skeptical of the returns on investment into such an economy. And here, too, domestic politics come into play. Most of China's population has been left out of the growth miracle of the reform era, and the resultant income and development gap is economically and politically unsustainable. To address the problem, Beijing has been trying to redistribute resources to less wealthy inland provinces that are increasingly important to political stability. Road and infrastructure construction in Pakistan, as well as a bilateral free trade agreement, are tied to Beijing's effort to develop these regions. But these projects will increasingly need to meet higher expectations for returns than did China's traditional low-strings approach to aid.

    All this means that China's calculus in Pakistan is becoming more diverse. The central question will be the extent to which political, and especially investment, risks begin to complicate the straightforward geopolitical calculus that has long yielded a remarkable intimacy between Beijing and Islamabad.

    To be sure, Beijing is too strategically tied to Pakistan -- and too timid in its diplomacy, in any case -- to off-load an erstwhile ally. But China is unlikely to be such an accommodating patron, either. Thus, it will prove less willing to fund the ambitious infrastructure development schemes Islamabad favors. And what is more, the scope and scale of future Chinese economic activity will not, in itself, produce rapid, sustained, and balanced Pakistani growth. In the long term, economic interaction with India -- the restoration of traditional regional ties and natural economic affinities in the subcontinent -- will almost certainly be more decisive.

    The bottom line is that China will not simply "bail out" Pakistan with loans, investment, and new untied aid, as commentators watching the deterioration of relations between the United States and Pakistan seem to expect. Rather, China's involvement in the country will closely reflect Beijing's own priorities and evolving risk assessments.

    For its part, the United States, which has failed to induce greater Chinese "pressure" on Islamabad, may be able to take advantage of China's new calculus to pursue complementary approaches focused on economics and finance. Countervailing interests, including China's effort to hedge against a growing U.S.-Indian partnership, will continue to obstruct strategic coordination between the United States and China in Pakistan, especially on anti-India and Kashmir-focused militant groups. But the more the two countries' economic threat assessments converge, the more Beijing and Washington should be able to turn a shared but abstract interest in Pakistan's "stability" into more complementary policies.
     
  7. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    Delay in Chinese loan puts Neelum-Jhelum project in doldrums

    The Neelum-Jhelum hydropower project is facing shortage of funds that could slow the pace of construction providing an edge to India, which is building Kishanganga project on the same Neelum river on its side of Kashmir, a senior official of Ministry of Water and Power said.

    According to the Indus Water Treaty the country that first completes its project on Neelum tributary will have the priority rights on the water of Neelum River.

    The financial situation of the project got worse as Pakistan did not get the expected credit line of $448 million from China, the official said.

    The Chinese were delaying the credit line either on pressure from India or to exert pressure on Pakistani authorities to revise the financing rates of the project, the official said quoting the assessment of the EAD officials.

    If Pakistan fails to complete its project before India, then it will lose the water rights to the upper riparian country.

    Keeping in view the importance of the project, the official revealed EAD secretary Dr Waqar Masud dashed to China for two days last week to get the loan of $448 million, which the top man of China had committed during the visit of President Zardari to Beijing in 2009.

    The Chinese Exim bank did not entrain Masud saying it would give the loan at appropriate time, although three years have elapsed since the commitment of China to Pakistan.

    The Chinese Exim bank is delaying the disbursement of the loan since 2009 despite the fact bank’s team came to Islamabad in 2011 and visited the site of project where in it expressed satisfaction. However, the Chinese bank is still evasive in funding the project knowing the fact that Chinese contractor is completing the project. It is pertinent to mention that China has already refused to provide finding for Iran Pakistan gas line project.

    The officials are surprised that Beijing has immediately released $130 million for the Chilas Road in Sakrdu, whose PC-I is even not approved just because of the fact the said road would connect border of China, but when it comes to the country’s strategic project, it is delaying the disbursement of the loan.

    When asked as to how the construction work is underway on the site of the project on main components keeping in view the acute financial constraints, the official said the Neelum-Jhelum Hydropower Company has acquired the loan of Rs6 billion from Wapda, which itself is a cash-strapped entity and if Pakistan fails to manage funding for the project, it is quite obvious that the pace of construction will alarmingly slow down.

    “We are in contact with Islamic Development Bank, Saudi Development Bank, Abu Dhabi Fund, Kuwait Fund for the required finding,” the official said.

    He said that IDB has committed $200 million, Saudi Fund $337 million, Abu Dhabi Fund $100 million and Kuwait Fund $30 million and the government is pursing the said donors to expedite the disbursement of their credit line for the timely completion of the project.
     
  8. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    It will be the day when China buckles to Indian pressure!

    China is quite clear where it priorities lie and they do everything as per their national interest and agenda!
     
  9. roma

    roma NRI in Europe Senior Member

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    that was more or less my instinctive reaction when i read that line in the article .....
     
  10. hit&run

    hit&run Elite Member Elite Member

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    China has approved the loan for Neelum-Jehlum project which is in POK i.e. Indian territory.

    Don't fall for this deceptive thread, China is a Pakistan's military ally. No one in India will ever give a squat about how any country will go about on financial ties with Pakistan. Our concern is military technology provided by China who being a Permanent member of UNSC has proliferated nuclear weapon technology, is a rouge non signatory to MRTC who has given long range missiles to them, building jets, naval warships and may possibly transfer second strike capable nuclear submarines.
     
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  11. trackwhack

    trackwhack Tihar Jail Banned

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    When two crooks get together and plan a heist, they are also plotting how to take each other out after they get their loot. Why is anyone surprised?
     
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  12. Mr.Ryu

    Mr.Ryu Regular Member

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    @ajtr

    Dont blame China, They are just acting in their own best interest, Can you kindly name 1 ally of Pakistan ? who will stand behind a failed terrorist state?
    YA YOU DONT HAVE ANY

    China is pretending to be your friend just to upset India nothing else they are smart people and they know they cant stand with Puki's in long run.

    And for you Info every thing in your Puki land revolve around India but it's not the same here we have moved and we no longer see you even as Enemy as you dont deserve it get a life.
     
    Godless-Kafir likes this.
  13. ice berg

    ice berg Senior Member Senior Member

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    You need to wake up from your dream land. If all those things are so obvious to any fan boy, then any one can bring forward the case.

    India never made a fuss. Why? Cause there is no evidence.

    I will rather trust their judgements than some fan boy fantasy.
     
    uglyindian likes this.
  14. roma

    roma NRI in Europe Senior Member

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    prc-dragon is well aware that investing in packland is throwing money into a bottomless pit - you wont get any return on it - so economically i'd go along witht he article that dragon has a long way back ditched packland , but not so militarily - dragon will still hand over to pak , their lower end stuff like j15 and those hardware that are on the low end of the sigma scale - just barely passed the quality assurance requirements - for pak to do their bidding against (most likely ) india
     
  15. no smoking

    no smoking Senior Member Senior Member

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    Even today is the day china bows to india's money.

    As long as india is offering enough price, China is always delighted to follow india on any individual subject.
     
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  16. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    China has invested peanuts in Pakistan and Aid can be summed up as zero.
     
  17. ejazr

    ejazr Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    The only thing China has really invested in Pakistan is its nuclear program and using Pakistan as a market and testing ground for its military products that no one else is willing to buy.
     
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  18. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Better to test and contaminate another country than your own. As far as
    military products go you get what you pay for and Pakistan is getting things free.
    China has to make it look like they have a market somewhere for the third rate junk
    they pass off as military products.
     
  19. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

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    Is it a case of China betraying Pakistan or a case of Pakistani leaders, civil and military alike, way-way over selling the whole rhetoric that surrounds the Sino-Pak “friendship” to their rather emotional people, which in turn gives an emotional high to the Pakistanis.

    Looking at the way the Chinese deal, which remains a very practical way of dealing with issues at hand, and the way the Pakistanis remain high on emotions, the option seems to be the second one.

    The Pakistani elite has always over sold their relationships with which ever bigger power they have had cordial relations with, it was the same with the US back in times, it is the same with China, as China rises.

    The general Pakistani, who is over sold on the sentiments, won’t get it till the time the national discourse gets one that is more close to reality on the whole Sino-Pak relations as they are, and till then even the “betrayals” which keep happening from time to time on part of China will be seen as no more than conspiracies hatched by others. Others of course being Indians, Americans, Israelis and their agents!
     
  20. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    China betrayed Pakistan during Kargil warwatch from 4:16

     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  21. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    If Shaheen -2 can fly towards usa and israel targets in gulf and towards india then it can also fly toward Chinese targets.Thats where you chinese share bad luck like india that you ve land borders with pakistan so it doesnt take much effort to smuggle in a dirty nuke across border into china.
     

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