HJ-12 top-attack ATGM

[Broccoli]

HJ-12 ATGM The HJ-12 anti-tank guided missile is China's first man portable, fire and forget, top down attack antitank missile, the electro-optical and infrared sight can be seen below the missile tube. It made its international debut in the Eurosatory 2014 arms show in France in this picture at the Norinco booth (EU export controls prevented Norinco from bringing the actual missile to France). NORINCO

More here.
For Sale: A New Chinese Tank-Killer? | Popular Science

 

[Adioz]

More here.
For Sale: A New Chinese Tank-Killer? | Popular Science

Wikipedia says that this missile has a range of:-

• 4 km in daytime
• 2 km in night

My question: WHY???? Why reduced range at night?

 

[shiphone]

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/airshow-china-2014-11th-nov-16th-nov.64618/page-8

Thermal Imaging seeker varient - 2 KM

daylight CCD seeker vaient - 4 KM

 

[Adioz]

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/airshow-china-2014-11th-nov-16th-nov.64618/page-8

Thermal Imaging seeker varient - 2 KM

daylight CCD seeker vaient - 4 KM

So its seekers are inferior to Nag............
Any new seekers or ATGMs in develpoment in China? Or does PLA not feel the need.
BTW, is Pakistan considering buying HJ-12? @Neo? Or do you guys plan to stick with 2nd gen ATGMs?

 

[shiphone]

yeah... 17kg portable ATGM Vs 42kg vehicle Launched one....what a comparation here...lol

just have a little common sense please....

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[Armand2REP]

Wikipedia says that this missile has a range of:-

• 4 km in daytime
• 2 km in night

My question: WHY???? Why reduced range at night?

Because it uses a regular camera with a cheap night filter for the optics.

 

[J20!]

Because it uses a regular camera with a cheap night filter for the optics.

Do you have a source for that kind Sir?

 

[Adioz]

yeah... 17kg portable ATGM Vs 42kg vehicle Launched one....what a comparation here...lol

just have a little common sense please....

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I would compare with a Chinese "42 kg" ATGM if you had one. But do you? What is the ATGM on those vehicles? Is it superior to NAMICA? No. LoL is on you then.
All I am asking is if there is a Chinese ATGM with a seeker as sophisticated as Nag, or if it is in the works, or is it not considered necessary in Chinese doctrine. Don't get so salty.

 

[Armand2REP]

Do you have a source for that kind Sir?

The seeker uses an non-inductive (ie uncooled, ie cheap) thermal imager and a white CCD camera for day and night combat capabilities. Under good light conditions during the day, the maximum range of the missile reaches 4 km, the effect of nighttime thermal imager effect range, the maximum range down to 2 km.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/hj-12.htm

 

[J20!]

I would compare with a Chinese "42 kg" ATGM if you had one. But do you? What is the ATGM on those vehicles? Is it superior to NAMICA? No. LoL is on you then.
All I am asking is if there is a Chinese ATGM with a seeker as sophisticated as Nag, or if it is in the works, or is it not considered necessary in Chinese doctrine. Don't get so salty.

I don't really understand why this "d*ck-measuring" mentality is necessary.

"the ATGM on those vehicles" is the Red Arrow 10/HJ10 ATGM. A Non Line of Sight (NLOS) missile capable of engaging targets at double the range NAG is capable of, ie 10km. Based on the ZBD-08 IFV chassis, the carrier is fully amphibious.

A brigade under the 72nd group army of the PLA in live-fire exercises in July of 2017:

Retractable target acquisition sensor

Shots of the ATGM carrier's interior:

The AFT10 ATGM carrier taking part in the Peace Mission 2014 exercise, under the auspices of the 112th Heavy Mechanized Infantry Division, 38th Group Army, Beijing MR.



NAG's range is comparable to the 4km max range of the 17kg, man portable HJ12. Not AFT10. So yes, it is "superior". Is NAMICA operational yet with the IA?

 

[Armand2REP]

the ATGM on those vehicles" is the Red Arrow 10/HJ10 ATGM. A Non Line of Sight (NLOS) missile capable of engaging targets at double the range NAG is capable of, ie 10km. Based on the ZBD-08 IFV chassis, the system is fully amphibious.

It doesn't look like it is very accurate based on the smoke cloud originating 15m behind the target.

 

[J20!]

It doesn't look like it is very accurate based on the smoke cloud originating 15m behind the target.

Halfhearted attempt at trolling mate. So smoke generated by its rocket motor contributes to its accuracy how?

 

[Armand2REP]

Halfhearted attempt at trolling mate. So smoke generated by its rocket motor contributes to its accuracy how?

In the closed feed it looks like it was a hit, but when they go to the pan shot the impact origin is clearly started well behind the tank.

 

[J20!]

In the closed feed it looks like it was a hit, but when they go to the pan shot the impact origin is clearly started well behind the tank.

Dude, there's footage directly from the missile seeker and a wide shot of the target tank. Both show a direct hit on the target. Thanks for that though. I like the footage of the GL5 active protection system demonstration.

BTW, those demonstrations are from NORINCO's tank exhibition held in August last year in front of foreign journalists and military personnel. A miss would have been evident and widely reported. The commentator even asks attendees to watch a playback of the hit.

 

[Armand2REP]

Dude, there's footage directly from the missile seeker and a wide shot of the target tank. Both show a direct hit on the target. Thanks for that though. I like the footage of the GL5 active protection system demonstration.

BTW, those demonstrations are from NORINCO's tank exhibition held in August last year in front of foreign journalists and military personnel. A miss would have been evident and widely reported.

Look at the wide shot and see where the impact cloud starts, it is 15m behind the tank.

 

[J20!]

Look at the wide shot and see where the impact cloud starts, it is 15m behind the tank.

I think this is one of those times where you see what you want to see. Like that "C919 crash"...

Are you suggesting that the tank destroyed itself? or that NORINCO placed charges in the tank to explode in the same instant the missile warhead detonated? Visiting dignitaries watched playback of the missile hit.

If it struck 15m behind the tank(where do you even get that figure?) where is the crater in that wide shot?

 

[jat]

I think this is one of those times where you see what you want to see. Like that "C919 crash"...

Are you suggesting that the tank destroyed itself? or that NORINCO placed charges in the tank to explode in the same instant the missile warhead detonated? Visiting dignitaries watched playback of the missile hit.

If it struck 15m behind the tank(where do you even get that figure?) where is the crater in that wide shot?

I think this was a horse and pony show, and they had seeker images pre recorded, since the placement of bushes is different. Perhaps, the missile did miss the tank. It happens. After all, the tank is in desert, and engine is probably removed or not turned on. Remember, the PLA doesn't exactly get the best quality equipment. This is why they take this into consideration, and order greater numbers to compensate for lack of quality and duds. Same is true in India. But with Indians, they have stricter policies, they IA is not ordered around by GOI but politicians, and business owners are not in IA ranks. With PLA, their greatest disadvantage is the fact the CCP becomes ranking generals.

 

[Guest]

I don't really understand why this "d*ck-measuring" mentality is necessary.

"the ATGM on those vehicles" is the Red Arrow 10/HJ10 ATGM. A Non Line of Sight (NLOS) missile capable of engaging targets at double the range NAG is capable of, ie 10km. Based on the ZBD-08 IFV chassis, the carrier is fully amphibious.

A brigade under the 72nd group army of the PLA in live-fire exercises in July of 2017:

NAG's range is comparable to the 4km max range of the 17kg, man portable HJ12. Not AFT10. So yes, it is "superior". Is NAMICA operational yet with the IA?

Do I see a wire

If there is a Wire, how is It NLOS ?

Nag's range your are talking about is 4 km due to IIR seeker. That seeker still fails after 3.2 Km when the day is ~55 degree Celsius in Desert environment.

Only recently I have come to know they have developed cooled seekers which can hit 4 km. I don't know how advanced Chinese IIR technology is but now watching the premier ATGM to be 2nd Gen, wire guided system. I think that answers my question.

PS: That wire isn't going to work for 10km , at most It will do 4km that too in ideal condition, even If the missile has enough fuel, such extreme range is possible only with wireless guidance like Laser, or IIR or MMW.

 

[J20!]

Do I see a wire

If there is a Wire, how is It NLOS ?

Nag's range your are talking about is 4 km due to IIR seeker. That seeker still fails after 3.2 Km when the day is ~55 degree Celsius in Desert environment.

Only recently I have come to know they have developed cooled seekers which can hit 4 km. I don't know how advanced Chinese IIR technology is but now watching the premier ATGM to be 2nd Gen, wire guided system. I think that answers my question.

PS: That wire isn't going to work for 10km , at most It will do 4km that too in ideal condition, even If the missile has enough fuel, such extreme range is possible only with wireless guidance like Laser, or IIR or MMW.

It's always best to do a little research before posting statements like that mate.

Fibre optic guided atgms can and have achieved ranges upwards of 15kms. NLOS implies a lock on after launch capability. Missiles like NAG are limited to 4km ranges by having to lock on to targets before launch, much like man portable ATGMs like HJ12 and the Javelin.

HJ10 is guided onto its target/or aborted by an operator within the missile carrier using video images transmitted from the CCD missile seeker via the fibre optic cable spooling from the missile.

The missile can also be launched in a fire and observe function before engaging the target at non line of sight ranges. With two operator stations on board, the carrier can launch, locate andd guide two missiles against different targets at extended ranges within seconds of each other

Hate on it all you like mate, but at the end of the day its a substantially more survivable platform than the non operational NAMICA.

Several non RF guided variants of the spike ATGM the IA is trying to import achieve extended range via fiber optic guidance as did the cancelled Raytheon FOGM ATGM which had a 15km max range.

 

[Guest]

It's always best to do a little research before posting statements like that mate.

Fibre optic guided atgms can and have achieved ranges upwards of 15kms. NLOS implies a lock on after launch capability. Missiles like NAG are limited to 4km ranges by having to lock on to targets before launch, much like man portable ATGMs like HJ12 and the Javelin.

HJ10 is guided onto its target/or aborted by an operator within the missile carrier using video images transmitted from the CCD missile seeker via the fibre optic cable spooling from the missile.

The missile can also be launched in a fire and observe function before engaging the target at non line of sight ranges. With two operator stations on board, the carrier can launch, locate andd guide two missiles against different targets at extended ranges within seconds of each other

Hate on it all you like mate, but at the end of the day its a substantially more survivable platform than the non operational NAMICA.

Several non RF guided variants of the spike ATGM the IA is trying to import achieve extended range via fiber optic guidance as did the cancelled Raytheon FOGM ATGM which had a 15km max range.

I don't think you understand the practical difficulties associated with a wire tailing behind a missile whatever wire that may be.

Now that you have confirmed that the wire is "fiber optic" one I am sorry to say China may be a generation behind when most of world is ready with their 3rd gen ATGM which don't have to use wire for guidance.

About NLOS, the wire may simply break by hitting the obstacle or cover and missile will be without command. So the launcher has to be in clear sight of target while Namica can just shoot and run for cover, or just shoot from cover.