History of Central and Eastern Europe

[nrupatunga]

@pmaitra When @Damian syas things like

1) We do not like Russians, they are not brothers to us
2)We do not have such bad blood with France, UK or USA.

As i mentioned in post #97, poles have fought both germans and russians for past many centuries. Their history is filled heroes who fought wars agianst both germans and russians. Hence their deep resentment with both of their neigbours. Also the reason for them to have defensive treaties with other powers who can check german-russian power.

 

[pmaitra]

@pmaitra When @Damian syas things like

As i mentioned in post #97, poles have fought both germans and russians for past many centuries. Their history is filled heroes who fought wars agianst both germans and russians. Hence their deep resentment with both of their neigbours. Also the reason for them to have defensive treaties with other powers who can check german-russian power.

Even the Slavs and the Tatars have a lot of bad blood. When you are neighbours, you will always have a history of bad blood, and wars, but also of friendship, trade, and cooperation.

Now, being in NATO might protect Poland from the Russians, but does that protect it from the Germans? I am interested to know how Poland plans to protect itself if Germany threatens it.

I understand what Damian is trying to say - I just find his justification founded more of paranoia and nationalist envy, and not reality.

This is the crux of the problem:

We do not like Russians, they are not brothers to us, and neither we desire any closer relationship.

 

[Damian]

Even the Slavs and the Tatars have a lot of bad blood. When you are neighbours, you will always have a history of bad blood, and wars, but also of friendship, trade, and cooperation.

Oh really, why then there is no friendship between India, Pakistan and China, you call other hypocrities while being one.

Now, being in NATO might protect Poland from the Russians, but does that protect it from the Germans? I am interested to know how Poland plans to protect itself if Germany threatens it.

Germany do not threatens us, and won't be in near future, there are several reasons, first Germany trauma after World War II efficently reduce any imperialistic ideas there, second thing is that stronger Poland benefits Germany as a buffer zone. Germany might cooperate with Russia in some fields, it does not mean Germany trusts Russia or perceive it as a friend.

I understand what Damian is trying to say - I just find his justification founded more of paranoia and nationalist envy, and not reality.

I find your opinion about NATO as paranoia and nationalism after colonial experiences of India with UK, and that you treat NATO like if it was only UK dominated alliance.

This is the crux of the problem:

And how we should like them? They tried to destroy our culture and nationality, did you even heard about rusification attempts of Poland during 123 years of occupation? This is completely contrary to the widespread myth of Russians liking other Slavic nations, in politics it was allways about rusification of these smaller tribes.

Did you heard about Katyn masacre? Can you imagine when a country x mass murder high ranking officers, police officers, national elites being prisoners of war? I doubt this, as Indians never really experienced genocide, at least not on this scale.

But the bigger problem is that, when Germans admitted they made horrible crimes against humanity, and apologized, Russian goverment constantly denies any attrocities made by Soviet Union, which modern Russia is direct descendant and takes all responsibilities of what happend in the past.

Also Russian elites still think in cold war categories, and perceive us as their subjects.

Not to mention that Russian goverment in their paranoia, have aimed at us nuclear weapons and create excercises of nuclear war... can you imagine it, a nuclear war against country without any nuclear weapons!

This is not funny, this is just insane.

 

[Austin]

Relations these days are based on pragmatic terms and economic relationship is what leads it , atleast mature nations behave that way.

If that were to be the case India would have never had good relationship with UK for the atrocities she had committed in 200 years of British Raj in India.

French , Germany , Italy have good relations with Russia and vice verse not because of some love for each other but purely for economic benefits.

Even UK which had bad relation with Russia for long has now softened down when BP was given a place in Rosneft-BP deal so money talks after all.

Both Europe and Russia/CIS are dependent on each other so i dont see how will one attack the other without causing mutual hurt , in this bleak economic situation for Europe they would co-operate more economically then any thing remotely on military front.

 

[nrupatunga]

@pmaitra The chances of intra-nato war is highly unlikely. Also as long as EU is strong , war is again unlikely in europe (within EU). Hence polish want a strong EU. But not a strong germany which goes alone. Hence you find things like this when polish minister says this to germany.

Polish Minister "Demands" Germany Save the Eurozone

"I demand of Germany that, for your own sake and for ours, you help it (the euro zone) survive and prosper. You know full well that nobody else can do it." says Polish Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski. "For Poland's sake" is what he means.

Now, suddenly, the German strength is a good thing ... if it is used to protect the rest of Europe from having to face itself and it's past honestly. He made it clear:

"The biggest threat to the security of Poland would be the collapse of the Eurozone."

Also read this article wrt poland's efforts to secure EU and itself. Article

Here in this article its mentioned

Poland needs Europe to succeed, economically as much as strategically. And Radek Sikorski is doing a lot to secure this. Poland can live with and in a strong Europe, but not next to a strong Germany, in case the Euro and European project should fail under the populist strain it is currently in. Therefore, Poland at whatever cost, needs a successful Europe with a functioning Germany in it that doesn't go global on its own.

 

[pmaitra]

Oh really, why then there is no friendship between India, Pakistan and China, you call other hypocrities while being one.

India shares a long border and border dispute with PRC and Pakistan. Is that the case with Poland and Russia (except Kaliningrad)?

Germany do not threatens us, and won't be in near future, there are several reasons, first Germany trauma after World War II efficently reduce any imperialistic ideas there, second thing is that stronger Poland benefits Germany as a buffer zone. Germany might cooperate with Russia in some fields, it does not mean Germany trusts Russia or perceive it as a friend.

Your optimism and your blind hatred for the Russians is clouding your judgement.

I find your opinion about NATO as paranoia and nationalism after colonial experiences of India with UK, and that you treat NATO like if it was only UK dominated alliance.

Yes, I feel threatened by NATO.

And how we should like them? They tried to destroy our culture and nationality, did you even heard about rusification attempts of Poland during 123 years of occupation? This is completely contrary to the widespread myth of Russians liking other Slavic nations, in politics it was allways about rusification of these smaller tribes.

Yes, Russification happened, and it is the law of nature, the stronger military-political-cultural power overwhelms the other.

Did you heard about Katyn masacre? Can you imagine when a country x mass murder high ranking officers, police officers, national elites being prisoners of war? I doubt this, as Indians never really experienced genocide, at least not on this scale.

Katyn massacre does not impress me, and I do not subscribe to playing the victim card again and again. India has seen far larger number of deaths and Katyn massacre looks like a fly in the face of that.

Also, your example of Katyn massacre and your response, if translated to 26 million Soviets dead due to Nazi German aggression, should imply Russia should nuke Germany, no?

I must say, Polish politicians are acting like school kids.

But the bigger problem is that, when Germans admitted they made horrible crimes against humanity, and apologized, Russian goverment constantly denies any attrocities made by Soviet Union, which modern Russia is direct descendant and takes all responsibilities of what happend in the past.

Even Russia admitted Katyn massacre (funny, you don't know much about your own country).

Also Russian elites still think in cold war categories, and perceive us as their subjects.

Poland has always been a subject of some other country, and if you can extricate your mind out of the Polish nationalist sentiments, you will see the truth.

Not to mention that Russian goverment in their paranoia, have aimed at us nuclear weapons and create excercises of nuclear war... can you imagine it, a nuclear war against country without any nuclear weapons!

This is not funny, this is just insane.

Too bad, it was Bush who planned to encircle Russia to prevent an attack from Iran (laughable), and Russia did whatever it had to in Kaliningrad, in response. Poland is trying to be a prick to Russia under the umbrella of US. Saakashvili tried that too, and leant a good lesson.

Lesson to learn: Don't molest a bear, you will get badly mauled.

 

[Damian]

Relations these days are based on pragmatic terms and economic relationship is what leads it , atleast mature nations behave that way.

If that were to be the case India would have never had good relationship with UK for the atrocities she had committed in 200 years of British Raj in India.

French , Germany , Italy have good relations with Russia and vice verse not because of some love for each other but purely for economic benefits.

Even UK which had bad relation with Russia for long has now softened down when BP was given a place in Rosneft-BP deal so money talks after all.

Both Europe and Russia/CIS are dependent on each other so i dont see how will one attack the other without causing mutual hurt , in this bleak economic situation for Europe they would co-operate more economically then any thing remotely on military front.

Ask yourself how long such situation will last. NATO do not trust Russia, Russia do not trust NATO.

You think why Germans seek a way to improve Polish military and seek closer cooperation between Polish and German arms industry.

Not to mention that not only Poland have a bad sentiment towards Russia, as Czechs, Slovaks, Bulgarians or Romianians, they have very similiar sentiments towards Russia as we have.

 

[pmaitra]

@pmaitra The chances of intra-nato war is highly unlikely. Also as long as EU is strong , war is again unlikely in europe (within EU). Hence polish want a strong EU. But not a strong germany which goes alone. Hence you find things like this when polish minister says this to germany.

Polish Minister "Demands" Germany Save the Eurozone


Also read this article wrt poland's efforts to secure EU and itself. Article

Here in this article its mentioned

You might as well be right. I do not agree. I think there is a very strong possibility of Greece and Turkey, both NATO members, starting a fight over Cyprus. Between Poland and Germany, there is no immediate chance of war, and neither is there a chance of war between Poland and Russia, but Russia and Germany, in the recent past, have been rather supportive of each other, and have been cooperating a lot.

 

[Austin]

Ask yourself how long such situation will last. NATO do not trust Russia, Russia do not trust NATO.

As long as both NATO & CSTO have their own interest to protect they wont trust , same for SCO and NATO .....SCO was created for the same reason to prevent NATO expansion because these countries have their own interest to protect and dont subscribe to NATO's world view.

You think why Germans seek a way to improve Polish military and seek closer cooperation between Polish and German arms industry.

Not to mention that not only Poland have a bad sentiment towards Russia, as Czechs, Slovaks, Bulgarians or Romianians, they have very similiar sentiments towards Russia as we have.

We have bad sentiments for British who have literally made us into a begger nation from being a richly princely state we were prior to british invasion , so what do we do attack british or vouch for their blood.

British Intelligence was also responsible for creation of Pakistan and that is a wound for us that does not heal but just keeps hurting.

The point is we still deal with Pakistan and British we have good relationship ......we cannot live in the past.

Germany , France and Italy , UK have good relationship guided by economic principal , infact French and German also all military equipment to Russia.

Its up to Poland to decide what is good for them but I guess most Europe country would still maintain a close economic relation with Russia for mutual benefit and vice verse.

 

[Damian]

India shares a long border and border dispute with PRC and Pakistan. Is that the case with Poland and Russia (except Kaliningrad)?

We do not have any border disputed with any of our neighbours.

Your optimism and your blind hatred for the Russians is clouding your judgement.

Or I just live here and know better than you.

Yes, I feel threatened by NATO.

Haha, and why? Give me a single reason why NATO should attack India?

When NATO states also USA perceive India as possible ally against China.

Yes, Russification happened, and it is the law of nature, the stronger military-political-cultural power overwhelms the other.

You know what is the best in this story? That we Poles are such stubborn bastards that we efficently opposed any rusification attempts.

Katyn massacre does not impress me, and I do not subscribe to playing the victim card again and again. India has seen far larger number of deaths and Katyn massacre looks like a fly in the face of that. Doesn't impress me.

Yes of course, Nazi death camps, or Soviet executing our people also do not impress you. Typical misconception of a men that never seen a former death camp.

Even Russia admitted Katyn massacre (funny, you don't know much about your own country).

They admitted it was a war crime, and it was genocide as well, which they refuse to admitt.

Funny how little you know.

Poland has always been a subject of some other country, and if you can extricate your mind out of the Polish nationalist sentiments, you will see the truth.

I see a truth, that I discuss with absolute ignorant.

Too bad, it was Bush who planned to encircle Russia to prevent an attack from Iran (laughable), and Russia did whatever it had to in Kaliningrad, in response. Poland is trying to be a prick to Russia under the umbrella of US. Saakashvili tried that too, and leant a good lesson.

Lesson to learn: Don't molest a bear, you will get badly mauled.

Oh I see, so a purely defensive weapon system, designed only to destroy missiles, all the sudden is threat to someone?

And Saakashvili made a mistake, he let himself to be provoked by Russians, it was his mistake, we do not do anything like this. It is clear that you do not understand situation beyond India's borders.

 

[Damian]

We have bad sentiments for British who have literally made us into a begger nation from being a richly princely state we were prior to british invasion , so what do we do attack british or vouch for their blood.

British Intelligence was also responsible for creation of Pakistan and that is a wound for us that does not heal but just keeps hurting.

The point is we still deal with Pakistan and British we have good relationship ......we cannot live in the past.

Germany , France and Italy , UK have good relationship guided by economic principal , infact French and German also all military equipment to Russia.

If India in your opinion have good relationship with Pakistan, when they are border conflicts, then hell, we have just incredibly good relationship with Russia, our soldiers do not shoot to each others.

Its up to Poland to decide what is good for them but I guess most Europe country would still maintain a close economic relation with Russia for mutual benefit and vice verse.

And you think we do not have any economic relations with Russia? We have, it is normal, however we do not let, or at least our goverment, block any attempts of bigger Russian companies to bought out our companies, vital to our security. And they try, believe me.

 

[nrupatunga]

but Russia and Germany, in the recent past, have been rather supportive of each other, and have been cooperating a lot.

This is what EU esp poles might not want to happen. Actually no big power france, uk, or even US want a russio-german alliance.

WRT war between turkey and greece, its a war that both don't want. That too in current conditions.

 

[pmaitra]

Yes of course, Nazi death camps, or Soviet executing our people also do not impress you. Typical misconception of a men that never seen a former death camp.

Katyn massacre is one thing, and Nazi death camps is another. You are confused right now.

They admitted it was a war crime, and it was genocide as well, which they refuse to admitt.

The death of less than 2000 people is not genocide. Sorry.

War is crime. Death is undesirable. We all know that. However, whenever I see making a mountain out of a molehill, I know such acts are motivated by political reasons.

 

[Damian]

And here something very interesting.

Doomed Soldiers | Forgotten Heroes of the Polish Armed Underground Resistance During And After Second World War (WWII) - Descriptions And Overview of Units, Scope of Activities, Officers, And Soldiers, As Well As Presently Undergoing Investigations A

Katyn massacre is one thing, and Nazi death camps is another. You are confused right now.

No, you are confused, and you don't understand. Both Nazis and Soviets were killing our people, be it soldiers or civilians.

The death of less than 2000 people is not genocide. Sorry.

War is crime. Death is undesirable. We all know that. However, whenever I see making a mountain out of a molehill, I know such acts are motivated by political reasons.

No, you are just ignorant, who will never understand.

 

[nrupatunga]

@pmaitra Poland was a independent power of its own in central europe. If i remember its 1683, when ottamons had sieged vienna, it was polish common wealth which opened another front and hence roman empire was able to stave off islam from central western europe. The polish commonwealth army had even reached moscow.

 

[pmaitra]

And here something very interesting.

Doomed Soldiers | Forgotten Heroes of the Polish Armed Underground Resistance During And After Second World War (WWII) - Descriptions And Overview of Units, Scope of Activities, Officers, And Soldiers, As Well As Presently Undergoing Investigations A



No, you are confused, and you don't understand. Both Nazis and Soviets were killing our people, be it soldiers or civilians.



No, you are just ignorant, who will never understand.

Let me put it this way:

Nazi Germany invaded USSR. 26 million Soviets dead. USSR retaliates, and end up controlling East Germany, till they are unified. Today, Russia and Germany have put their past behind themselves, and are forging ahead in friendship.

Poland, on the other hand, is crying like a baby over less than 2000 dead in Katyn massacre.

I think it is a difference in attitude between great nations and petty nations.

 

[Damian]

Nazi Germany invaded USSR. 26 million Soviets dead. USSR retaliates, and end up controlling East Germany, till they are unified. Today, Russia and Germany have put their past behind themselves, and are forging ahead in friendship.

Then you know very little about Europe. "Friendship" is a word that you delude yourself.

Poland, on the other hand, is crying like a baby over less than 2000 dead in Katyn massacre.

Not only Katyn massacre, but also other attrocities. But on the other hand, this is a proof that we remember our losses, and can honor these, that fought for our freedom.

I think it is a difference in attitude between great nations and petty nations.

You are nothing more than ignorant, calling one nations great and other petty. Someone could name India a petty nation. I will not do that, first because it is not truth, second because I am better than you.

 

[pmaitra]

@pmaitra Poland was a independent power of its own in central europe. If i remember its 1683, when ottamons had sieged vienna, it was polish common wealth which opened another front and hence roman empire was able to stave off islam from central western europe. The polish commonwealth army had even reached moscow.

Yes, it was, actually, many of the so called Polish campaigns, were actually Polish-Lithuanian joint campaigns. Also, many time, Poland and Russia jointly campaigned against the raiding Cossacks as well. So, it is not true that Russia was always an enemy of Poland.

 

[pmaitra]

Then you know very little about Europe. "Friendship" is a word that you delude yourself.



Not only Katyn massacre, but also other attrocities. But on the other hand, this is a proof that we remember our losses, and can honor these, that fought for our freedom.



You are nothing more than ignorant, calling one nations great and other petty. Someone could name India a petty nation. I will not do that, first because it is not truth, second because I am better than you.

You can call India a petty nation. After the recent PLA incursion, I have been calling for Indians to accept our weaknesses, and work hard.

I am humble enough, and I am far from an "India-Hurr-Durr" person. I also don't believe in a salamander measuring contest, and am willing to respect an enemy worthy of respect, and that is how I see PRC.

There should be dignity in defeat, and India has that, Poland doesn't.

 

[MAYURA]

The death of less than 2000 people is not genocide. Sorry.

It was not 2000 people but more than 20000 polish people who were massacred by the soviet bastards.

you in your revisionism have got it completely wrong. sorry.