History of Central and Eastern Europe

Discussion in 'Europe and Russia' started by Keshav Murali, May 8, 2013.

  1. Keshav Murali

    Keshav Murali Back to studies :( Senior Member

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    But why are NATO countries without any real threat like the UK and Poland still maintaining a military?
     
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  3. militarysta

    militarysta Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

    Becouse we have borders whit:
    Russia
    Belarus
    Ukraina

    Geopolitycal situation in all those countries is not constans - now, almoust all is OK and realtion ware quite good, by what will be from ten years from now?
    Whit Ukriana Poland have very good relation and tryied to be representative / spokesperson in UE and NATO for Ukraina.
    Poland estern borders will be safe only when will be existy free, independend and strong (mainly economically) Ukraina - so all Polish action is based on whole possible help for Ukraina -if they want to acess to NATO, maybe for 30 yers from now UE and others. But for the other side - Ukriana is divided into two parts: estern - mostly pro russian and slavic and western - not "pro western" but rather nationalist. You must know that Poland-Ukraine history is last century very difficult -full of genocide, crime, war, broken promises...is difficult even now. And now Ukraine is at a crossroads -it can go to the west -and Poland will give any help (cause as I said: Poland estern borders will be safe only when will be existy free, independend and strong Ukraina ) but Ukraina can go to the est and cooperate whiIt Russia. But IMHO it will not attempt to partnerships but vassalization. Unfortunalty for Ukriana - being neutral is almoust impossible whit sucht geopolyticial placment.

    Realtion whit Belarus are difficult now, and untill Łukaszenko died it will not be better. De facto Belarus is now Russian vassal - dependent economically and militarily. Sad story, and danger for Poland.

    More or less polish estern politics is nit change for centuries - Poland estern borders are safe only when exist buffer independent countries (Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine) which separates and give "space" before Russia. But those countries must be independend, now only Lithuania is that, Ukriana is on crossroads, and Belarus is Russian vassal.

    And Russian politics doesn't change - is still trying to subordination and vassals of Ukraine - as in the case of Belarus -whole is based on concept "near abroad" - so countries created after Soviet Union colapse, and after 80yers of soviet slavery -when Russia pretend to dictate terms and be the only and main partner of political, economic, military aspects. In case Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, it not exist, but in rest countries - trial are still going on. And those trialls are in some way dangerous for Poland.

    For all that resons Ukraina and Belarus haven't stable political systems - and for example civil war on Belarus after Łukaszenko died is possible...or other problems - so some minimum strong army is needed for defend homland. Poland is still estern border of the NATO and UE.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2013
  4. Keshav Murali

    Keshav Murali Back to studies :( Senior Member

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    Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

    Thanks militarysta. I had no idea Poland was surrounded by so much insecurity (Particularly Ukraine - I thought it was peaceful)

    Personally, I think Russia is fumbling economically and is on slow recovery path. They certainly will not touch a NATO member for next 30-40 years till they become as rich as Soviet Union in 80's.

    It's good that Poland maintains deterrence. I would want peace in Europe and I believe that disbanding NATO is the first step. (Nuclear sharing is not a good idea in my opinion - what if USA's nukes are stolen by gangsters who attack Ramstein? Stupid thoughts like that come into my mind)
     
  5. Damian

    Damian Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

    @Keshav Murali

    As for this Magach variant, we know now that it is Spike ATGM carreir on tank chassis, that looks like tank, gun barrel is mockup.

    As for Poland and it's neighbours relations, this is more complicated. Poland and Ukraine have very good relations despite past, in fact, both countries sees their future in cooperation.

    It is a historical fact that Poles and Ukrainians are more a brothers than Russians and Ukrainians, as Ukraine was part of Poland for a relatively longer time period, and there is more commonality between Poles and Ukrainians than Russians and Ukrainians.

    As for Bellarus, problem is Lukashenka, it is because Bellarus was also for relatively long time period part of Poland, and we share many commonalities with Bellarusians, same with Lithuania. Problem are Russian politics, which are focused on constand interuption between our countries relations, and to stop further improvement of their independence, and there is a good reason, strong and independent Bellarus, Ukraine, Lithuania and Poland, along with Czech Republic, Slovakia and several other countries, can create a very strong block if countries, in NATO, friendly to USA, and opposing Russian influance in central Europe.

    You must understand that for majority of people in these countries, Russia is alien country, occupant, and threat.

    As for NATO, I do not see a reason to go out NATO, NATO gives a lot more freedom to us, than Warsaw Pact, we are not threatened by our allies, in Warsaw Pact, Soviet Union could invade you any time they wanted, if they seen communism was not liked by nation and nation tried to make a change.

    So definetely NATO is very good at creating a platform for peacfull relations between nations and cooperation based on partnership not submission to a single country.

    EU is a different story tough.
     
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  6. hest

    hest Regular Member

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    Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

    A necessary developement in post Soviet sphere is integration, social and economical which will boost welfare (as it is going now between Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, partially with Ukraine), realize that these countries are mutually dependant and the events at the end of USSR supposed a huge crisis for them when institutions were developed against the people's will around corruption and individual interests, which supossed a burden for economical developement, of which the people is still concientiated about, so on this aspect the ongoing process should positively develope. Also should be promoted the cooperation with rest of europe on this basis, all EU countries, social (abolition of Visa regime), economical integration.

    They pretend to help with developement, howewer this is hypocritical, does not correspond with reality, with continous attempts to negate integration within post Soviet states, meddling in internal politics, interstate relations and Poland's, Baltic and other eastern EU members with their phobic and stupid policy suppose a buffer for cooperation between them and EU, an approach desired by economical powers, France, Germany and Russia specifically.

    Poland's attempts to avoid it, and desire to see weak eastern states, Belarus, Ukraine, Russia, preventing their economical and social developement are clear, coming from stupid leadership and some number of population, howewer this does not represent the mentality of the whole nation, there are also more normal and good people, and fortunately these attempts are being futile and the process will not be prevented.

    NATO aim for long ceased to confrontation in Europe, and their presence is not wanted, in Ukraine, it's attempts of imposition were faced with confrontation of the people and it only created conflict. This is now generally aknowledged by them, same as positive political context in Europe, lack of enemy or military threat but it is still sad to find opposition to this idea coming from eastern, Baltic countries, "Russia is enemy", bla bla and stupid policy of some eastern countries, and like in this case, very silly comments.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2013
  7. Damian

    Damian Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

    Understand you old imbecile, that we do not wisth to have closer relations with Russia, that killed our people, you forgot about how Kremlin cause genocide on Ukraine, and how you bastards killed our people in prison camps?

    Or how you murderers killed our civilians and home army soldiers after the war just because they were patriots that did not wished to have socialism and Soviet Union influance in their country?

    Neither Poland neither Ukraine wants this, neither Baltic states, ask any young men or wonem from this countries if they want cooperation with Russia and they will say no.

    You might delude yourself old fool, but we remember how you murdered us, and tried to put us under your boots.

    We do not need Russia, accept this and leave us alone, are you incapable to understand that you are not welcome in our countries due to what you did to us?

    NATO not wanted in Ukraine? :D

    Did you ever spoke with young Ukrainians, they wish to be closer to NATO than to Russia that taken their soveregnity and attempted to destroy Ukrainians as a nation.

    So yes, Russia is our potential enemy and threat, Russia is not slavic country for us, but completely alien Asian country to be honest.

    Why you can't accept that we do not welcome you in our countries?

    Hopefully you as old fool will die sooner or later, and younger generations will be capable to build up their future without old parasites like you Lidsky.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2013
  8. hest

    hest Regular Member

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    Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

    Yes, you are example of authistic and ignorant, which is not taken seriously by anyone.

    I personally have nothing against Poland, and as you are an example, there are idiots everywhere, but the point is, nobody cares about Poland and their mentality, and it should not meddle in internal issues of foreign countries, and interstate relations, between post soviet countries, and Russia and EU.

    Mmm, you know nothing out of where you are and your circle. Even by referendum the vast majority was against imposition of NATO and being part of that Block, it is also understood by faces working in economy that integration is necessary for developement.

    It is not, only for stupid and irrational population, not for rest of Western countries which do not care about that view, and anyway there is nothing which those Poles could do. Independently of politics, genetically, poles are the same as eastern slavs, but true slavic nations do appreciate their commonalty, also you should know that today's poland is in part artificial mix with germans, Czech, Slovaks.. after it's recent establishment as country.

    Poland should not mess with relations desired by EU, Germany, France with Russia and post soviet integration, which will only improve economical and social developement, due to irrational phobia of some individuals in leadership of third party country, you can keep your stupid feelings for yourself.
     
  9. Damian

    Damian Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

    The only historical ignorant here is you. You have luck that we are not talking in person, I would slap you in your ugly face for such ignorance and openly spreading lies to other people outside the region that do not know our history that well.

    And I do not care about you and your stupid communist mentality, old fool.

    Besides this Poland is in EU and we have more right to express our desires and interests within EU that Russians have.

    And who won referendum? Not young people, but old dying fools like you, still dreaming about restoration of soviet union.

    You can inslut young people as much as you can, but this will not change a fact that future belong to us, younger generations of Poland, Ukraine and Baltic States, that desire future without Russia influance and integration with Russia.

    You do not know nothing about us, neither about Ukrainians Czech or Slovaks, for us Soviet Union was a criminal state that done genocides to us, and other horrible attrocities, and we do not want it or Russia.

    But why should I care about opinion of old indoctrinated fool?

    But we do not mess with relations of Germany or France with Russia, we do not care really. We do not want Russia to mess with our internal relations.

    But I am sure that old fool like you is not capable to comprehend that younger generations of Russia's neighbour countries, do not desire any closer relationship with Russia... at least not untill Russian political elites stop their continous attempts to put us undeir their boots.


    But even on Wikipedia in english, there are reliable sources about Russian attrocities in Poland, Ukraine and other states.

    Soviet repressions of Polish citizens (1939–1946) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Katyn massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Anti-communist resistance in Poland (1944–46) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Holodomor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Soviet war crimes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    These are gifts we received from you, only death and suffer, and we do not wish any further cooperation with Russia.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2013
  10. hest

    hest Regular Member

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    Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

    Ho ho ho, sure, keep that for you to feel better.


    I have not communist mentality at all, but I have seen, experienced, and know the situation. You should realise that serious people, including EU (Germans..) want to establish good relations for the benefit of both sides, and look down on people with stupid beliefs as you in former socialist block which are driven by stupid phobia (not all are such fortunately), they do not care about such stupid policy, neither the rest. I have no Problems with Poland, and I do not really care about their mentality or internal policy, howewer it has no say in interstate relations and integration of other states, Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, relations with EU.

    You know nothing, again about those peoples so better do not talk about it :) Neither you know about economical structure, and reasons of such desire of integration, and it is not your matter what does the people do to improve it's life.

    And not all from Poland, Baltics, Romania etc is such stupid, there are good people which understand current situation and desire economical and social relation. Even on military aspect and your silly Russia threat phobia is devanishing, for example after it was agreed recently that Russia would reestablish a military air base in Belarus, Lithuanian defense minister Yuzas Olyakas under question gave a true response, this is just another form of integration between those states and it will not have repercusions in regional security.

    In NATO nobody wants to confront Russia, nobody has forces against her, there is are no longer attempts at expansion and nobody cares about stupid phobias, instead there is ongoing cooperation. You should grow up if and cease with inmature mentality.

    This is only your ignorant opinion, but point is, they do not care about your internal policy and you do not mess with internal politics of other countries, with relations of other countries, between Germany and Russia, integration of Belarus, Russia, Ukraine, Kazhastan, it is question of common welfare and developement and stupid mentality of some Polish and other leaders should not mess with it.

    Yeah, the evil, and Who writes it ignoring rest of aspects.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2013
  11. militarysta

    militarysta Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

    Well history is a difficult in central Europe.

    My grandfather and grandmother had remembered erly 1930s on polish ester borders and tousents live-skeletons escaping from soviet ukriainian republic. There wher farmers and they had remebered those poor peopels starving and escaping from soviet "wunderland" and created by soviet murders starvation death. It was first big genocide in XX century in Europe and between 3 500 000 - 5 000 000 Ukrianian citizens where murdered in the created artificial famine on Ukraina. It was genocide equal to Holocasust (Shoah) but in mass media Jew gassed by natzi is "more deth" then Ukrianian farmer starved to death by Soviets in 1932-1934.
    From the other side - granddad and grand mom where almoust only survivor from masacre made in 1943 by ukrainian UPA...
    And from the third side - Polish colonization of eastern borderlands between 1921 and 1937 is fact.
    History is not simple and eacht side have it's own right and truth - Ukraina, Poland, Belarus, Lithuania. Only Soviet Union and soviet sucessor haven't right to debate about those times becouse Soviets where murderes and genocide makers on whole central Europe in XX century.

    BTW: And Russia and russian citizens where first bloody soviet regime victims...
     
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  12. Damian

    Damian Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

    You can laugh. It does not change a fact that you are lier.

    Oh, but you have communist mentality, you are just the same parasite. And you think that people remembering their history and attrocities made by one country, is a stupid belief?

    And I know Ukrainians, they do not wish to integrate with Russia really, especially younger ones, they want to build their future on their own, without help of their "big brother".

    The only stupid person here is you, parasite.

    Neither you know anything, Russia allways threatened independence of it's neighbours.

    And how do you know that integration with Russia is in best interest of these nations? What alternative have Kazakhstan or Bellarus? Non really, and they can peacfully give up to Russia, or have bigger problems, just like Georgia, from which Russia stole land in form of South Ossetia and Abkhazia republics/provinces.

    Ukraine is also in danger, several weeks ago I spoke with young Ukrainians, and they are terrified with idea of integration with Russia. So what next, you will call Ukrainians foolish only because they desire independence and to create their future on their own?

    Social and economic development is not everything that people desire, and can't be achieved without freedom.

    And seriously, do not say you are not communist, you use exactly the same language like all communists, calling other people idiots only because they desire independence and freedom.

    What aspects? There are no other aspects, nobody wanted Soviet Russia in Poland after World War II, nobody wanted it in Czechoslovakia, Romania or other countries in the region.

    What we received was constant murdering, rapes, stealing our land and goods.

    But this is typical for people like you, cowards afraid to accept reality and historical facts, and face the truth, that your ancestors were nothing more than primitives, barbarians and murderuous thugs.

    Of course they were, and Russia and avarage Russians still suffers from parasites like Lidsky, that are not even ethnic Russians.

    Untill these people, that still have sentiment to old regime and still have old imperialistic mentality won't die, there is no way that Russia will find a common language with smaller neighbours.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2013
  13. militarysta

    militarysta Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

    Damian
    Russia do not means Soviet regime.
    And Russian citizens do not mean soviets.
     
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  14. Damian

    Damian Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

    I know, and never said such, I said and what should be understood, is that current Russian goverment, are people from former KGB, they are all "former" communists, seeking dominance over their neighbours and their own people. And Lidsky is just blind supporter of these politicians, one of many usefull idiots in former socialist states supporting such people. This is why partnership with Russia today is not possible.
     
  15. hest

    hest Regular Member

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    Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

    History has many aspects and it has to be looked from perspective of all facts and conditions

    This is exactly the thruth and the point of discussion.

    You are the parasite without good work and living at cost of others, which has done nothing yet but maintains ignorant tone.

    You know nothing about situation decades ago and current, you have not worked and lived with them, economical structure and the needs, the functioning, industry, export, import of products, workforce which can be reestablished, and you silly boy have no say on the desire of these peoples, which you know nothing about. You now are only limited to comments on internet.

    South Ossetia was originally not in Georgian SSR but was transferred from now North Ossetia, same as happened with other territories, and Georgia had no right to perform the actions it did. It should also be noted that the division into "socialist republics" created by bolshevism did not correspond historically and on many cases was arbitrary definition, so result after USSR is curious for structures which did not exist previously.

    They can only laught at your "knowledge" about them.

    Truth is that it is the same people with same origins, Belarus, Ukraine, Russia, and for centuries there were no political differences under one state, "ethnically" is practicaly the same but there were local traditions, speech. In fact great part of population in Ukraine, especially in Russia has relatives with origins in Ukraine, Belarus, also other slavic peoples.

    And this is rather off the topic
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2013
  16. Damian

    Damian Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

    And how do you know I do not have a good work? :D

    Neither I live on cost of other peoples, my political and economic beliefs do not permitt me to take any support from other people or state, especially financial support. I pay for my education from my own bank account and money from my own work.

    This is more than a parasite like you, that gained his education from state, which means from taxes of other hard working people.

    Oh, you old silly communists, ignoring people needs for their own interest.

    I know very well how life looked back then, my family, friends that lived back then, perfectly know how horrible were these times.

    Georgia have more rights to decide what to do with these lands, than Russia, Russia should not interfere further destabilizing situation in the Caucasus region.

    I spoke with many Ukrainians, and was initially surprised with their opinions, although I accept their decision to separate from Russia as much as it is possible.
     
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  17. LurkerBaba

    LurkerBaba Staff Administrator

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  18. Damian

    Damian Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Of course, you have no counterargument, neither you know history, this more distand and this more recent.

    The fact is however that Ukrainians are shifting towards west, because west guarantees independence, Germany and France have no interest and are not close to Ukrainine, to make it their subject, while Poland and other close neighbours of Ukraine wish cooperation and partnership, however current political elites in Russia desire nothing but absolute control over it's smaller neighbours, especially former soviet republics.

    Even current Ukrainian president is not very happy about perspective of further integration with Russia, because it means direct subjection under Putin and Russias political elites.

    And of course younger generations in these countries. As far as you wish to dismiss importance of younger people, it is a fact that they will decide and build future, not you.

    Even inside Russia, young people are tired of old fools like you, old soviet hyprocrites with their phobia towards USA, NATO or western Europe.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2013
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  19. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    That is not a fact, rather, your personal belief.

    Some history lesson for you.

    The Slavic regions of Russia were effectively vassals of the Tatars, whose main centre of political power was Kazan, which today, is the main city of Tatarstan. However, Tatars, were not the only ones. There were many fraternal peoples, like the Bashkhirs, Crimean Tatars, migrant settler Kalmyk communities, Chuvash, Kazakhs, Cossaks, Germans, Bulgars, etc., who inhabited regions starting from Ukraine all the way up to Rostov and south up to Astrakhan., who were part of this rather massive vassalage of the Kazan Khanate. The Kazan Khanate, and many people's of Russia, have a long connection with the Golden Horde.

    The history of the Russian Empire has its roots in Ukraine. It was called the Kievan Rus. The word "Russia" originates from "Rus." Although, "Rus" as a political entity, has its origins in Novgorod, the real political rise of Russia as an Empire, is from Kiev. So, it is rather disingenuous of you to suggest that Ukraine is not close enough to Russia.

    While the Slavic people and the Mongols have a long history of power struggles, and battles, along with trade, and alliances, the nucleus of the Tsarist Russia is in Kiev.

    What you are stating as fact, in reality, is not a fact, but engineered history.

    The West cannot grant independence to Ukraine from a country that has it's origins in Ukraine. This is more of a political encircling ploy attempted by the West, to keep Russia in check. Such moves are frustrated by the ancient fraternal relations between the people of Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia.

    Whatever you have written so far in this thread, I suspect, is borne out of your feeling of inferiority, due to Poland's long history of being under Russian and Soviet subjugation. Not your fault. Poland, even today, is under the umbrella of the West. Ever since WW1, Poland (or should I say Prussia?) has always been one of the weakest countries in Europe, always clinging to some major power to ensure its survival.
     
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  20. MAYURA

    MAYURA New Member

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    That is like suggesting that since turks formed their empire first in mongolia region, an azeri is closer to a mongol than an anatolian turk.

    laughable indeed with good bit of poland baiting.


    Russia is an imperialist power much more than the west and so it is better for poles and ukrainians to have their freedom.
     
  21. Damian

    Damian Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    No, I know Ukrainians that share the same opinion, do you actually know Poland-Ukraine history?

    This have absolutely nothing to do with more modern times, and parts of Rus was also part of Polish Kingdom, you are oversimplifing history here.

    Frustrates Ukrainians? Did you ever talk with young Ukrainians for their opinion? I can give you even a contact.

    They are far from liking this "ancient fratelnar" relations with Russia.

    Bellarus is more problematic, as rulled by a tyrant, and there is no freedom of speech.

    Partially truth. Our position in Europe is problematic, we have Germany on the one side and Russia on the other, and both not always were friendly, it is difficult to fight on 2 or even 3 fronts.

    Poland do not have anything common with Prussia however, you are confusing countries, Poland was part of Prussia that was part of German Reich for some time, as well as Austro-Hungary and Russian Empire, after WWI we gained independence, and everything would be good if not 3rd Reich and Soviet Union attacked us.

    And we not allways were weakest, in 1920's we stopped Red Army in their march towards western Europe.

    The fact is however that Soviets killed as many Polish citizens as Nazi Germans.

    Not to mention forced deportations to Syberian Gulags.

    There was a good reason why Home Army several years after World War II was still fighting with Soviet occupation and their puppets, but it was a loose fight, immposible to win. Still tough Home Army troops rescued many people during their attacks on NKVD and UB prisons and posts, where people were tortured and executed, mostly because they didn't liked socialism or were earlier fighting Germans within Home Army structures or other independent resistance groups.

    However I completely understand you are biased and do not like us. ;)
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2013

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