High Speed Railway Corridor

[no smoking]

Where in earth did you earned your knowledge that Indian Trains are of 70 kmph maxed please explain.

So we are talking about Maximum speed here? Well, that speed dosen't mean anything in daily life. Average daily operation speed does.

If india cannot make its train travel at a average speed above 200km/h in general, having a train with 300 km/h maximum speed is a waste of money.

 

[pmaitra]

Top speed of 160km/h means an operating speed of 120km/h max， with average speed of some 70-80km/h depending on the number of stops along the way。

Top speed does no good other then chest thumping the issue is the utility. High speed Trains are generally are no cheaper option then air travel which is a better mode of passenger transport. What are the available high speed freight transport rails available worldwide? Because iirc India have plans to make make high speed freight rail connectivity, rail transport are reputed to help in economical growth of a nation. Passenger trains with 0.4 mach speed with astronomical fare do not help in this cause when their are other more feasible options available around. What is important is freight I think, and India have plans for Delhi Mumbai Industrial corridor with a high speed goods train connectivity to start with.

Cir, some Indian trains have to make multiple station halt meaning dip the speed of the train and label it upto 45-50 kmph label while talk about top speed of bullet trains....meh.

So we are talking about Maximum speed here? Well, that speed dosen't mean anything in daily life. Average daily operation speed does.

If india cannot make its train travel at a average speed above 200km/h in general, having a train with 300 km/h maximum speed is a waste of money.

The London-Paris Eurostar has a top speed of 300 km/h and an average speed of 171.5 km/h between London and Paris. Similarly, Indian Railways' trains have to stop at many places for political reasons and for convenience of passengers. There are only the Duronto Trains and a few more that are point-to-point but they too have to make technical halts for engine and staff replacement. So yes, we can only talk about max speed if we are discussing technology. On the other hand, it is true that the average speed matters for those travelling between the extreme ends of the train route. Solution? Have short city-to-city corridors so that no engine or staff change is required and the train does not have to make commercial halts. Then this becomes a a non-technical issue (whether to stop in between or not).

 

[pmaitra]

Some of the most pressing needs of point-to-point connectivity are:

• Dedicated Freight Corridor: Delhi-Mumbai
• Dedicated Passenger Corridor: Amritsar-Delhi-Jaipur
• Dedicated Passenger Corridor: Hyderabad-Pune-Mumbai-Ahmedabad
• Dedicated Passenger Corridor: Ranchi-Kolkata-Bhubaneswar
• Dedicated Passenger Corridor: Cochin-Bangalore-Chennai

This is just my opinion.

 

[KS]

Another freight corridor must be from the Chota Nagpur Plateau to Chennai passing through Vizag for transportation of minerals.

 

[pmaitra]

Another freight corridor must be from the Chota Nagpur Plateau to Chennai passing through Vizag for transportation of minerals.

It's too much of a distance and bad terrain. It will be easier to build a freight corridor to Kolkata from Chhota Nagpur Plateau. The British already studied that and decided to build the BNR for their mineral trains. See the map below:

 

[Payeng]

So we are talking about Maximum speed here? Well, that speed dosen't mean anything in daily life. Average daily operation speed does.

If india cannot make its train travel at a average speed above 200km/h in general, having a train with 300 km/h maximum speed is a waste of money.

Their are Trains in different categories the Express trains (read Rajdhani Express) Duronto and the regular trains. I think 300 kmph trains will be a waste of money as per I have heard that their fares are no lesser then air travel, Bullet trains are added advantage but not a preference I suppose.
Speed of trains are also track dependent, in inter section trains lower their speed, if suppose from point A to point B a train have to face less such inter section the average speed will be comparatively higher but to note that trains in India performs two main purpose 1. Mass transport system at affordable cost 2. Goods movement. Study the topography of India, populated in almost all location, the primary requirement is mass transport which demands maximum utilisation of available infrastructure resulting multiple inter section hence to achieve average speed like 200 kmph, many compromise would have to be done, like making mass transport a low priority, dedicated lines, but ultimately the general masses will suffer to the luxury of elite classes.

Another scope is point A to point B travel at high speed travel for that elevated and protected tracks and dedicated lines will do this might be introduced in between important city hubs but for general purpose transport!!! Nah.... will a 300 kmph rail ride be cheaper then airfare? Will the elite classes prefer Rail ride instead of Air travels?

Such plans depends upon how much such a project will help the nation as a whole, as a whole include the general masses preferring low cost ride. Having Bullet trains is an advantage but not a preference anytime.

For nations like India and China needs take priority upon wants.

 

[no smoking]

The London-Paris Eurostar has a top speed of 300 km/h and an average speed of 171.5 km/h between London and Paris. Similarly, Indian Railways' trains have to stop at many places for political reasons and for convenience of passengers. There are only the Duronto Trains and a few more that are point-to-point but they too have to make technical halts for engine and staff replacement. So yes, we can only talk about max speed if we are discussing technology. On the other hand, it is true that the average speed matters for those travelling between the extreme ends of the train route. Solution? Have short city-to-city corridors so that no engine or staff change is required and the train does not have to make commercial halts. Then this becomes a a non-technical issue (whether to stop in between or not).

Actually, average speed matters to everyone including your whole railway system. If your trains can only run at 70km/h in general, that means your system can only support this AVERAGE speed. It is ok to have your train running at max speed occasionally, but if most of your trains travel at 150km/h all the time, your system will collapse as your rail, signal system, control system, etc, can't catch up.

China's high speed train has once runned at 350km/h, but generally these trains only have an operational speed around 200km/h, which means china's system can only support this speed.

 

[pmaitra]

Actually, average speed matters to everyone including your whole railway system. If your trains can only run at 70km/h in general, that means your system can only support this AVERAGE speed. It is ok to have your train running at max speed occasionally, but if most of your trains travel at 150km/h all the time, your system will collapse as your rail, signal system, control system, etc, can't catch up.

China's high speed train has once runned at 350km/h, but generally these trains only have an operational speed around 200km/h, which means china's system can only support this speed.

Of course it does.

While we may be able to run a few point to point trains with full complement of passengers to make it economically viable, other slower trains will suffer because we will need to have enough real estate to run these high speed trains. Now, we cannot take out those slower trains. They have to be there and serve the smaller town and villages.

That is why I called for dedicated corridors.

 

[cir]

This is 2012.

India won't see a mile of OPERATING HSR in the next 10 years.

It will cost India twice as much and take India thrice as long as China to build a HSR.

 

[pmaitra]

This is 2012.

India won't see a mile of OPERATING HSR in the next 10 years.

It will cost India twice as much and take India thrice as long as China to build a HSR.

Of that there is no doubt. Let me guess, the maximum cost and time overruns will be due to land acquisition and litigation.

 

[Payeng]

India and China are Populated and Developing nations, ambitions like Bullets trains are desires when we have other problems to solve..... Ok if their is a scope for expansion of infrastructure but not at the cost of this type of a story that I collected from an internet news article............

Critics say railway officials have diverted too much money to high-speed rail and should be expanding lower-cost traditional rail.During the Lunar New Year holiday in February, working class travellers complained they couldn't afford high-speed tickets and regular trains were sold out.
A migrant worker became an Internet sensation when he stripped to his underwear to protest outside a ticket office after he waited 14 hours in line but couldn't get tickets for his family.​

rest depends upon the Government for the people and the people's Government to prove how much do they care for the people.

 

[no smoking]

Of course it does.

While we may be able to run a few point to point trains with full complement of passengers to make it economically viable, other slower trains will suffer because we will need to have enough real estate to run these high speed trains. Now, we cannot take out those slower trains. They have to be there and serve the smaller town and villages.

That is why I called for dedicated corridors.

No, you didn't get my point. I am not talking about economic factor of running the high speed train. I am talking about your supporting system: iron rail, signal system, central control, daily maintenance and even man power, etc. It need huge amount of investment to upgrade your whole railway departments unless you think that keep the train running at 140km/h require same no more than 70km/h.

 

[pmaitra]

No, you didn't get my point. I am not talking about economic factor of running the high speed train. I am talking about your supporting system: iron rail, signal system, central control, daily maintenance and even man power, etc. It need huge amount of investment to upgrade your whole railway departments unless you think that keep the train running at 140km/h require same no more than 70km/h.

• Iron rail - yes we do have them. India has vast reserves of iron but we probably will need to invest more on metallurgy to tackle expansion-contraction of welded rails between summer and winter. Track magnetisation is another problem. Needs investment.
• Signal system - We have the safety features but not installed across all IR. Automatic interlocking system is also there.
• Central control - No, we don't have anything like that of the Japanese Shinkansen. We need to develop or buy that.
• Daily maintenance - No issues if the tracks are dedicated and not saturated with traffic.
• Manpower - We surely have that, skilled or technical.

 

[no smoking]

• Iron rail - yes we do have them. India has vast reserves of iron but we probably will need to invest more on metallurgy to tackle expansion-contraction of welded rails between summer and winter. Track magnetisation is another problem. Needs investment.

No, having iron doesn't mean having iron rai which suits the new speed standard. You have to replace at least a part of your rail as they cannot sustain the high speed.

For example, China replaced most of its rail to cop with high speed. The new rail has a weight of 60-70kg/m and 100m length while the old one is 50kg/m and 25m.

• Signal system - We have the safety features but not installed across all IR. Automatic interlocking system is also there.

Again, no. Your signal system is only working for low speed. With increasing speed, there is a lot of new potential safty problems would appear, so you have to install a lot of new sensors. Meanwhile, high speed means shorter response period and long braking distance, so you have to renew your signal system.

• Manpower - We surely have that, skilled or technical.

No, you still to provid a proper trainning to upgrade their knowledge and skill as their exsting knowledge doesn't work well in new scenario.

 

[pmaitra]

No, having iron doesn't mean having iron rai which suits the new speed standard. You have to replace at least a part of your rail as they cannot sustain the high speed.

For example, China replaced most of its rail to cop with high speed. The new rail has a weight of 60-70kg/m and 100m length while the old one is 50kg/m and 25m.

<1> We already have heavy rails for freight intensive routes. We are also contemplating heavier rails and higher catenary for double decker container trains.

Stone India Limited has already made a larger pantograph for our locomotives. They are called Omniversal Intelipanto.

<2> Other than that, the kind of metal alloys we use still has some expansion and contraction. We need to come up with alloys that will have minimal expansion and contraction due to heat and be strong enough and not susceptible to deformation. We also cannot run freight trains on these dedicated high speed routes as freight trains damage tracks.

<3> Also, for high speed trains, we might need to incorporate tilting trains. That will require more spacing between two parallel tracks. The current standards are:

Source: [IRFCA] Permanent Way - Dimensional Diagrams

Again, no. Your signal system is only working for low speed. With increasing speed, there is a lot of new potential safty problems would appear, so you have to install a lot of new sensors. Meanwhile, high speed means shorter response period and long braking distance, so you have to renew your signal system.

You have good knowledge in this subject. Yes, you are right. We will need to install newer signalling system. I believe we can upgrade the existing ones with the stuff you mentioned.

<4> On tracks turnouts/switches/points:

Also, we used to have multi-piece frogs earlier:

Nowadays, we have monolithic frogs in high speed routes.

These images are for example only.

We need to get frogs with a switching flange to enable further high speed negotiation:

No, you still to provid a proper trainning to upgrade their knowledge and skill as their exsting knowledge doesn't work well in new scenario.

Yes, of course, we need to provide training. What I am saying is that we do not have shortage of skilled and unskilled manpower.

 

[sehwag1830]

OK i was comparing price of HST of China and Air fare of India over similar distance (1300 KM) .

Now what i found was that air fare in India was 40% cheaper and 45% less time consuming.

So do you think it will work in India or will it be a huge loss for tax payers.

 

[VIP]

It's necessity.Indian trains' fair would remain always less.Don't compare indian transport system with china.

 

[sehwag1830]

^^^ And who will pay for the loss incurred in running High speed railway.

 

[s002wjh]

OK i was comparing price of HST of China and Air fare of India over similar distance (1300 KM) .

Now what i found was that air fare in India was 40% cheaper and 45% less time consuming.

So do you think it will work in India or will it be a huge loss for tax payers.

i think its not reasonble to compare air fare in india vs HST fare in china. different country has different living cost. its like compare US air fare vs india air fare.

HST is good for high population desity area. also with price of oil raising, its time to upgrade the railway.

 

[pmaitra]

I would say we need to hit the 250 kmph mark, and that would be a necessity, but going upto 350 kmph would probably be a salamander measuring contest.