High Speed Railway Corridor

[pmaitra]

I don't believe starting reactive effort can be increased by adding more locos in series. If you have any information to the contrary please enlighten me!

(TractiveEffort x Speed) / Factor = HorsePower

Tractive Effort and Horse Power are directly proportional.

Discussion: http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/75858.aspx

 

[cobra commando]

Japan Beats China In Race To Build India's First Bullet Train

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Green Signal: भारत में बुलेट ट्रेन प्रोजेक्‍ट को मिलेगी रफ्तार, जापान देगा 15 अरब डॉलर का सॉफ्ट लोन

नई दिल्‍ली। भारत में बुलेट ट्रेन के सपने को साकार करने के लिए जापान ने वित्‍तीय मदद देने का प्रस्‍ताव दिया है। जापान ने भारत को उसकी पहली बुलेट ट्रेन के लिए तकरीबन 15 अरब डॉलर का सॉफ्ट लोन देने की बात कही है। सूत्रों ने बताया कि इस लोन की ब्‍याज दर एक फीसदी से भी कम होगी। जापान इस कदम के जरिये चीन की बराबरी करना चाहता है, जो दुनिया के चौथे सबसे बड़े भारतीय रेल नेटवर्क में अन्‍य प्रोजेक्‍ट्स हासिल करने के लिए कोशिश कर रहा है।

मुंबई और अहमदाबाद के बीच 505 किलोमीटर का बुलेट ट्रेन कॉरीडोर का व्यवहार्यता अध्‍ययन टोक्‍यो ने पूरा कर लिया है और इसमें पाया गया है कि यह प्रोजेक्‍ट तकनीकी और वित्‍तीय रूप से व्यावहारिक है। यह प्रोजेक्‍ट नीलामी के लिए रखा जाएगा, लेकिन फाइनेंस के मामले में जापान इस दौड़ में सबसे आगे है।

पिछले महीने चीन ने दिल्‍ली और मुंबई के बीच हाईस्‍पीड ट्रेन के व्‍यवहार्यता अध्‍ययन का कॉन्‍ट्रैक्‍स हासिल करने में सफलता पाई है। 1200 किलोमीटर के इस ट्रेन रूट की लागत 30 अरब डॉलर होने का अनुमान है। इस प्रोजेक्‍ट के लिए अभी तक किसी ने भी लोन की पेशकश नहीं की है।

इंडियन रेलवे बोर्ड के चेयरमैन एके मित्‍तल ने कहा कि हाई स्‍पीड टेक्‍नोलॉजी देने के लिए कई कंपनियां आगे आई हैं, लेकिन टेक्‍नोलॉजी और फंड दोनों एक साथ देने वाला हमारे पास केवल एक ऑफर है और यह ऑफर केवल जापान ने दिया है। यह दो प्रोजेक्‍ट हाईस्‍पीड ट्रेन के डायमंड क्‍वाड्रिलैटरल का हिस्‍सा है, जहां 10,000 किलोमीटर के ट्रेक का निर्माण होना है और भारत इसके जरिये दिल्‍ली, मुंबई, चेन्‍नई और कोलकाता को जोड़ना चाहता है।

सूत्रों ने बताया कि जापान ने मुंबई-अहमदाबाद प्रोजेक्‍ट की कुल लागत की 80 फीसदी राशि सॉफ्टलोन के रूप में देने का प्रस्‍ताव दिया है। इसके लिए जापान ने एक शर्त भी रखी है। इस शर्त के मुतातिबक भारत को कोच और लोकोमोटिव समेत 30 फीसदी उपकरण जापानी कंपनियों से खरीदने होंगे।

जापान की इंटरनेशनल कोऑपरेशन एजेंसी, जिसने यह व्‍यवाहर्यता अध्‍ययन किया है, ने कहा है कि बुलेट ट्रेन चलने के बाद मुंबई और अहमदाबाद के बीच यात्रा का समय वर्तमान सात घंटे से घटकर दो घंटे का रह जाएगा। इस रूट पर 11 नई सुरंग के निर्माण की जरूरत होगी, जिसमें ण्‍क सुरंग मुंबई के पास समुद्र में होगी।

Now, waiting for an indigenous bullet train concept by government or a private company.

 

[cobra commando]

Even after losing out to Japan, China says it is still open for bullet train deal with India

 

[roma]

Even after losing out to Japan, China says it is still open for bullet train deal with India

consider that prc is constructing the CPEC in pakistan close to the india border , then if they get any contract or tender on the indian side they will have control of both sides of the border

obviously a serious security risk ...plus the well -known fact of kill-switches which they will embed i their electronics

conclusion :- it is suicide to allow them to participate in any major project in India

@angeldude13@Abhijat@Ancient Indian @anupamsurey @aliyah @Alien@angeldude13@Abhijat@Ancient Indian@anupamsurey @aliyah @Alien @Aravind Sanjeev @A chauhan @asingh10 @asianobserve @BATTLE FIELD@bose @Bornubus @brational@blueblood@Blackwater@Blood+
@Bangalorean @bengalraider @cobra commando @Chirag @Chris Jude @Chinmoy@Cadian @DingDong@ersakthivel @FRYCRY @guru-dutt@Hari Sud@hit&run @indiandefencefan @I_PLAY_BAD @Indian Devil @Indibomber @Jangaruda @jackprince@Kunal @Kshatriya87 Biswas@LETHALFORCE@laughingbuddha @mhk99 @maomao @Neil @Nicky G @OneGrimPilgrim@pmaitra @PaliwalWarrior @Pulkit @Rowdy@Razor@Rashna @[email protected] @Sakal Gharelu Ustad @Srinivas_K @sunnyv @sgarg@sabari @Sameet2 @saik @sorcerer @sydsnyper @Sridevi @SREEKAR @TejasMK3@The enlightened
@tejas warrior@tharun@thethinker@tsunami@Screambowl @Sylex21 @VIP @Vishwarupa @Vishal Guts @Yusuf@Yumdoot @Zebra

 

[I_PLAY_BAD]

consider that prc is constructing the CPEC in pakistan close to the india border , then if they get any contract or tender on the indian side they will have control of both sides of the border

obviously a serious security risk ...plus the well -known fact of kill-switches which they will embed i their electronics

conclusion :- it is suicide to allow them to participate in any major project in India

@angeldude13@Abhijat@Ancient Indian @anupamsurey @aliyah @Alien@angeldude13@Abhijat@Ancient Indian@anupamsurey @aliyah @Alien @Aravind Sanjeev @A chauhan @asingh10 @asianobserve @BATTLE FIELD@bose @Bornubus @brational@blueblood@Blackwater@Blood+
@Bangalorean @bengalraider @cobra commando @Chirag @Chris Jude @Chinmoy@Cadian @DingDong@ersakthivel @FRYCRY @guru-dutt@Hari Sud@hit&run @indiandefencefan @I_PLAY_BAD @Indian Devil @Indibomber @Jangaruda @jackprince@Kunal @Kshatriya87 Biswas@LETHALFORCE@laughingbuddha @mhk99 @maomao @Neil @Nicky G @OneGrimPilgrim@pmaitra @PaliwalWarrior @Pulkit @Rowdy@Razor@Rashna @[email protected] @Sakal Gharelu Ustad @Srinivas_K @sunnyv @sgarg@sabari @Sameet2 @saik @sorcerer @sydsnyper @Sridevi @SREEKAR @TejasMK3@The enlightened
@tejas warrior@tharun@thethinker@tsunami@Screambowl @Sylex21 @VIP @Vishwarupa @Vishal Guts @Yusuf@Yumdoot @Zebra

As far as railways in India is concerned only IR will be the governing authority even if the Chinese or Japanese build HSRs. Till that structure is there we do not have to worry too much about security implications. Why am I saying this ? India is not Pakistan. Pakistan was desperate for some investments in its soil. The Chinese came with the friend tag on their foreheads and grabbed the opportunity. They were lucky enough to nail the CPEC deal on their own terms. Whereas in case of India, like the recent HSR development, we have a lot of options. If not china it will be japan, if not japan it will be south Korea and so on.

I have one more question. The price to travel in the mumbai-Ahmedabad HSR would be around ₹2800 which is somewhat equal or higher than air fares. With the government mulling a ₹2500 cap on air fares will HSR be an unwanted investment ?

 

[VIP]

As far as railways in India is concerned only IR will be the governing authority even if the Chinese or Japanese build HSRs. Till that structure is there we do not have to worry too much about security implications. Why am I saying this ? India is not Pakistan. Pakistan was desperate for some investments in its soil. The Chinese came with the friend tag on their foreheads and grabbed the opportunity. They were lucky enough to nail the CPEC deal on their own terms. Whereas in case of India, like the recent HSR development, we have a lot of options. If not china it will be japan, if not japan it will be south Korea and so on.

I have one more question. The price to travel in the mumbai-Ahmedabad HSR would be around ₹2800 which is somewhat equal or higher than air fares. With the government mulling a ₹2500 cap on air fares will HSR be an unwanted investment ?

Many are wondering here about the observation you made in last paragraph. After 6 years, would the cost be still 2800 or go high like every other project ?
I wholeheartedly welcome infrastructure development but the cost is too high, we need to develop the tech in our own backyard to reduce the cost.

 

[VIP]

In Defence Of The Mumbai-Ahmedabad Bullet Train

Over the last few days, a lot of analysis has appeared in the media, which has tried to project that the decision to launch a bullet train between Mumbai and Ahmedabad is a stupid one.

And this is how some of this analysis goes. India will spend Rs 98,000 crore on building this bullet train between Mumbai and Ahmedabad. This is something it cannot afford. Now compare this to the amount of money that we spend on education, health, roads, etc., during the course of the year.

For the current financial year, 2015-2016, the allocation towards school education and literacy is at Rs 39,038.50 crore. The allocation towards higher education is Rs 15,855.26 crore. When it comes to health, the government has allocated Rs 24,549 crore to be spent during the course of the year. The allocation to the National Highways Authority of India, which builds roads connecting the country, is Rs 22,920.09 crore. The total allocation to the ministry of road transport and highways is at Rs 42,912.65 crore.

Further, during the course of the year, the Railways plans to spend just Rs 6,581 crore on 970 overbridges and under-bridges and other safety related measures, in order to eliminate 3,438 level crossings. And if all this wasn’t enough, the total allocation to the ministry of environment, forests & climate change is just Rs 1,446.60 crore.

Given the amounts that we are spending on such very important things, how can we be spending Rs 98,000 crore on a bullet train. Can we really afford this?

As a recent analysis on Scroll.in points out: “The Mumbai-Ahmedabad bullet train budget is also 2.3X the entire spend of the Centre on schools. The corresponding figure for health and highways is 3.3 and 2.3, respectively.” [My numbers lead to slightly different ratios, but the broader point the Scroll article is trying to make doesn’t really change, so we will leave it at that].
If we look at the entire issue on the basis of the information that I have provided in the article up until now, spending money on a bullet train, when there isn’t enough money going around for health, education, roads and railway safety, seems out rightly stupid.

Nevertheless, all such analysis that has appeared in the media is essentially simplistic in nature. Allow me to elaborate. As the press release on the bullet train announcement points out: “India and Japan have signed an MoU [memorandum of understanding] on 12th December, 2015 on cooperation and assistance in the Mumbai–Ahmedabad High Speed Rail Project (referred by many as Bullet Train project). Japan has offered an assistance of over Rs 79,000 crore for the project. The loan is for a period of 50 years with a moratorium of 15 years, at an interest rate of 0.1 per cent. The project is a 508-kilometre railway line costing a total of Rs 97,636 crore, to be implemented in a period of seven years.”

The bullet train between Mumbai and Ahmedabad will cost Rs 97,636 crore and will be built over seven years. Hence, the entire Rs 98,000 crore (approximately) will not be spent in one year. Given this, the comparisons with the health budget, the education budget, the road and highways budget, that have appeared in the media, are incorrect. A spending to be carried out over a period of seven years is being compared with spending carried out every year. A comparison of both over a seven-year period would have been the right way to go about it. But then things don’t look as bad as they do now.

It has been implied that the government is spending this money in one year, which it clearly isn’t. Second, the analysts forget to mention, perhaps unknowingly, that almost 80% of the project is being financed on a very soft loan from Japan.

Japan has offered a loan more than Rs 79,000 crore to be repaid over 50 years at an interest rate of 0.1% per year [Yes you read that right!]. Further, the loan comes with a 15-year moratorium. What this means is that India does not need to start repaying the loan immediately. It will have to do so fifteen years down the line.

Now what would repaying the loan entail? A loan at an interest 0.1% to be repaid over 50 years essentially means almost no interest is being charged. Once India starts repaying the loan, it would have to pay an EMI of Rs 135 crore per month. In fact, the interest is so low that the total repayment over 50 years will amount to just Rs 81,000 crore. This means an interest component of Rs2000 crore over fifty years. The government of India can clearly afford this.

Also, this repayment doesn’t start for 15 years and has to be repaid over a period of 50 years. Hence, once we take inflation into account, the Rs 135 crore that will have to repaid 15 years down the line and over a period of 50 years, will be worth much less than it currently is. By then, the project will also start generating some revenue.

The question is why is Japan doing this? It “has been agreed that Shinkansen Technology will be adopted for the project.” In effect, the Japanese government is giving a loan to the Indian government at almost 0% interest, in order to be able to buy technology from Japanese companies.

Also, there is another reason for the Japanese largesse. As Bharat Karnad writes in Why India is Not a Great Power (Yet): “With an eye firmly on China as the main adversary and security challenge, India can synergize its engagement and role with the military, political, and economic capabilities of countries feeling threatened by Beijing to keep China at bay.”

Once these factors are taken into account, the bullet train project between Mumbai and Ahmedabad will not be a drain on the government finances. Having said that, the government will have to ensure that it does not become a “white elephant” as and when it starts. In order to ensure that, the ticket prices of the bullet train will have to be lower than that charged by airlines.

http://www.huffingtonpost.in/2015/12/14/modi-bullet-train_n_8802734.html?utm_hp_ref=india

 

[Kshatriya87]

We need to upgrade our existing infrastructure but along with this we need to move into high technology areas like the Bullet Train. Once it is introduced there will be many technological spinoffs that can help the IR with their regular work.

Also with high speed trains on important routes like Delhi-Ludhiana, Mumbai-Ahmedabad, Chennai-Bangalore, just to name a few, we can take the pressure off the highways.

Diamond quadrilateral bullet trains are also proposed. High speed trains connecting the 4 metro cities. A lot of road & air traffic / crowds can be reduced once completed.

 

[I_PLAY_BAD]

Many are wondering here about the observation you made in last paragraph. After 6 years, would the cost be still 2800 or go high like every other project ?
I wholeheartedly welcome infrastructure development but the cost is too high, we need to develop the tech in our own backyard to reduce the cost.

It won't be the same. If they say ₹2800 now it will be around ₹3200-3500 per ticket at that time. But even then the air fares will be in the same range. Air travel is no longer a luxury affair in India and the prices has to come down in favour of middle-class. So won't people prefer the fastest mode of travel with similar costs ??

 

[VIP]

It won't be the same. If they say ₹2800 now it will be around ₹3200-3500 per ticket at that time. But even then the air fares will be in the same range. Air travel is no longer a luxury affair in India and the prices has to come down in favour of middle-class. So won't people prefer the fastest mode of travel with similar costs ??

That's the whole argument, I think it will depend on the reach of the stations, as it would do 2 stops at Surat and Vadodara which will give them more customers. Shatabdi Express running between Ahmedbad and Mumbai Central has dedicated compartments and seats for Vadodara and Surat stations, I guess that's true for all long route trains but for this particular case, it's a good thing. We'll see what happens after 6 years.

 

[avknight1408]

China was supposed to do survey of Delhi chennai bullet train. Any news about that? Delhi chennai in 6 hours would be awesome.

 

[Mad Indian]

I have one more question. The price to travel in the mumbai-Ahmedabad HSR would be around ₹2800 which is somewhat equal or higher than air fares. With the government mulling a ₹2500 cap on air fares will HSR be an unwanted investment ?

Many are wondering here about the observation you made in last paragraph. After 6 years, would the cost be still 2800 or go high like every other project ?
I wholeheartedly welcome infrastructure development but the cost is too high, we need to develop the tech in our own backyard to reduce the cost.

I think this fear is misplaced.the bullet train would be better in many scenarios compared to air travel- for instance, Mumbai to ahmedabad air travel will have to be planned months in advance, would have no scope for travel stops in between. Same with say Delhi chennai . while the flight ticket would be cheaper than bullet train from chennai to Delhi , the in between stops between various cities would actually be cheaper than air travel.


Also, if I am not mistaken, the air fares of 2500 is actually true only if booked l3 months or so in advance and booking at the time of boarding/one or two days before travel will run into 6000-8000, while the train tickets are likely to remain the same through out the booking time.


But overall, air travel will by far remain cheaper than bullet trains for long distance travel, as aeroplane does not have to deal with the air resistance which is dealt by the bullet trains.



And finally, in the overall scheme of things, bullet trains are the way forward from a strategic POV. If I am not mistaken, bullet train will be power by electricity , which can be generated by coal, nuclear energy and may be solar all of which can be generated plentiful in India , while aeroplane would increase our oil imports further which is the last thing we want- being dependant on barbaric scum in the middle east

 

[spikey360]

Many are wondering here about the observation you made in last paragraph. After 6 years, would the cost be still 2800 or go high like every other project ?
I wholeheartedly welcome infrastructure development but the cost is too high, we need to develop the tech in our own backyard to reduce the cost.

True.
But this is Japan!
*kodo drums in the background*

On a serious note, yes, even government knows costs will go up. But if they say now, anti-nationals will cry themselves hoarse from the roofs.

It won't be the same. If they say ₹2800 now it will be around ₹3200-3500 per ticket at that time. But even then the air fares will be in the same range. Air travel is no longer a luxury affair in India and the prices has to come down in favour of middle-class. So won't people prefer the fastest mode of travel with similar costs ??

No. If that was so, nobody would be riding bullet trains in Japan, China, France, Germany, Italy.

 

[VIP]

I think this fear is misplaced.the bullet train would be better in many scenarios compared to air travel- for instance, Mumbai to ahmedabad air travel will have to be planned months in advance, would have no scope for travel stops in between. Same with say Delhi chennai . while the flight ticket would be cheaper than bullet train from chennai to Delhi , the in between stops between various cities would actually be cheaper than air travel.


Also, if I am not mistaken, the air fares of 2500 is actually true only if booked l3 months or so in advance and booking at the time of boarding/one or two days before travel will run into 6000-8000, while the train tickets are likely to remain the same through out the booking time.


But overall, air travel will by far remain cheaper than bullet trains for long distance travel, as aeroplane does not have to deal with the air resistance which is dealt by the bullet trains.



And finally, in the overall scheme of things, bullet trains are the way forward from a strategic POV. If I am not mistaken, bullet train will be power by electricity , which can be generated by coal, nuclear energy and may be solar all of which can be generated plentiful in India , while aeroplane would increase our oil imports further which is the last thing we want- being dependant on barbaric scum in the middle east

The stops are the biggest reason why this thing is serious deal for govt. Air fares are highly unregulated, in peak moths the ticket rates go even beyond 9000, but in most of the months you can get ticket around 2500 easily even before 5 days to 1 week of journey date. If you book ticket months ago, it would be very cheaper.

This route is one of the highest profit generating routes of railways. Everyday around 20 trains are run between these places and even double decker train which has more than 3000 A.C. chair car seats, gets full booking everyday. Bullet train would be fine.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

It won't be the same. If they say ₹2800 now it will be around ₹3200-3500 per ticket at that time. But even then the air fares will be in the same range. Air travel is no longer a luxury affair in India and the prices has to come down in favour of middle-class. So won't people prefer the fastest mode of travel with similar costs ??

Question is does it make sense to go for 300km/hr train which is super expensive compared to using current infrastructure and running standard 200km/hr trains?

 

[Mad Indian]

Question is does it make sense to go for 300km/hr train which is super expensive compared to using current infrastructure and running standard 200km/hr trains?

Come on dude. There are several problems on your argument.


1. The train fares in India is cheap because they are subsidised. Hardly fair to compare that with the cost of bullet trains which are not likely to be.

2. The current infrastructure can't handle even 150kmph, forget 200. And this limitation is due to rails, not due to engines.

3. So long as the economics of the project is fine, .ie, it is profitable , why does it matter?

And being a bullet train, it will not be subsidised as it will be primarily used by business class. So I don't see it becoming a money sink unlike the garbage called IR.

4. Finally, we need electrical alternatives to Aeroplanes(.is fast travel) to cut our dependence on oil,(and hence the desert monkeys) which we are not self sufficient. So, in that sense alone, bullet trains would be great if it can reduce the growth requirement of airways by some portion.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Come on dude. There are several problems on your argument.


1. The train fares in India is cheap because they are subsidised. Hardly fair to compare that with the cost of bullet trains which are not likely to be.

2. The current infrastructure can't handle even 150kmph, forget 200. And this limitation is due to rails, not due to engines.

3. So long as the economics of the project is fine, .ie, it is profitable , why does it matter?

And being a bullet train, it will not be subsidised as it will be primarily used by business class. So I don't see it becoming a money sink unlike the garbage called IR.

4. Finally, we need electrical alternatives to Aeroplanes(.is fast travel) to cut our dependence on oil,(and hence the desert monkeys) which we are not self sufficient. So, in that sense alone, bullet trains would be great if it can reduce the growth requirement of airways by some portion.

1. It is cross-subsidized from freight to passenger. Even if customers pay fully, the prices would not shot up by too much.

2. Current infrastructure meant current railway technology+ some upgradation. They are running 150km/hr trains on Delhi-Agra stretch. I do not know if that is/will be implemented. It needs strengthening of tracks and you are good to go with slightly modified and light rail coaches.

3. If railway gives out the operation of Bullet train to private firm, I would not care. But if it does not, it will eat into railway investment. I would prefer 4000km of 200km/hr lines rather than 500km of 300km/hr line.

Bullet trains are subsidized all over the world and hardly pay for themselves except on few stretches.

 

[Screambowl]

consider that prc is constructing the CPEC in pakistan close to the india border , then if they get any contract or tender on the indian side they will have control of both sides of the border

obviously a serious security risk ...plus the well -known fact of kill-switches which they will embed i their electronics

conclusion :- it is suicide to allow them to participate in any major project in India

@angeldude13@Abhijat@Ancient Indian @anupamsurey @aliyah @Alien@angeldude13@Abhijat@Ancient Indian@anupamsurey @aliyah @Alien @Aravind Sanjeev @A chauhan @asingh10 @asianobserve @BATTLE FIELD@bose @Bornubus @brational@blueblood@Blackwater@Blood+
@Bangalorean @bengalraider @cobra commando @Chirag @Chris Jude @Chinmoy@Cadian @DingDong@ersakthivel @FRYCRY @guru-dutt@Hari Sud@hit&run @indiandefencefan @I_PLAY_BAD @Indian Devil @Indibomber @Jangaruda @jackprince@Kunal @Kshatriya87 Biswas@LETHALFORCE@laughingbuddha @mhk99 @maomao @Neil @Nicky G @OneGrimPilgrim@pmaitra @PaliwalWarrior @Pulkit @Rowdy@Razor@Rashna @[email protected] @Sakal Gharelu Ustad @Srinivas_K @sunnyv @sgarg@sabari @Sameet2 @saik @sorcerer @sydsnyper @Sridevi @SREEKAR @TejasMK3@The enlightened
@tejas warrior@tharun@thethinker@tsunami@Screambowl @Sylex21 @VIP @Vishwarupa @Vishal Guts @Yusuf@Yumdoot @Zebra

Japan will build in India. That's for sure. No Chinese involvement at vast in Indian railways. The Chinese will then be able to know our freight capability to carry troops and weaponry.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Japan will build in India. That's for sure. No Chinese involvement at vast in Indian railways. The Chinese will then be able to know our freight capability to carry troops and weaponry.

Yes, we are going to carry troops on bullet train!!!