Has Pakistan become the victim of a monster it created?

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by A.V., Oct 15, 2009.

  1. A.V.

    A.V. New Member

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    with this as the background is it safe to say that has pakistan has fallen prey to the monster it created?
    how can ordinary pakistanis come out of this daily events that are disturbing normal life and peace
    what does pakistan need to do in the near future


    please keep discussions civil and to the point
     
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  3. hit&run

    hit&run Elite Member Elite Member

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    PA army has admitted on the record that men from JeM, LeT(Pakistan Punjab based) are joining bad Taliban:). Interestingly they are saying Punjab based terrorist training camps are now needs to be eradicated. isn't India was saying this since last 10 years(Mentioned below)?

    These same people were bashing/abusing India's concerns when we were telling them with proves about these terrorists camps. Now in Kerry Luger bill has vowed to attack these camps in Punjab/queta etc.
    [​IMG]

    The red dots show the location of some of the well-documented terrorist camps operating in Pakistan and Pakistan-occupied Kashmir
    **The sole red dot in Afghanistan depicts the location of terrorist camps housing Pakistani trainees targeted by US missiles


    Some Vital Statistics and Facts on the Pakistani Terrorist Machinery Aimed at Kashmir
    Number of Terrorist Camps in Pakistan: 37
    Number of Terrorist Camps in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir: 49
    Number of Pakistani-run Terrorist Camps in Afghanistan: 22
    Total Number of Hardcore Terrorists Operating in Jammu and Kashmir: 2300[now has dramatically reduced to 150-300]
    Total Number of Foreign Mercenaries Operating in Jammu and Kashmir: 900
    Number of Pakistani terrorists killed by Indian security forces: 291
    Number of Pakistani terrorists in Indian jails: 125
    Number of Indian civilians killed by Pakistani terrorists: over 29,000
    Number of firearms recovered from Pakistan-trained terrorists in India: 47,000
    Amount of explosives recovered from Pakistan-trained terrorists in India: 60 tons (30,000 kg)
    Number of explosions carried out by Pakistan-trained terrorists in India: 4,730
    Nationalities of Foreign Mercenaries Operating in Jammu and Kashmir:
    Pakistan, Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, Afghanistan,
    Egypt, Sudan, Yemen,
    Bahrain, Bangladesh, Iran, Iraq
    Deadliest Pakistani Terrorist Groups Active in Jammu and Kashmir:
    Harkat-ul-Ansar (recently renamed Harkat-ul-Mujaheedin)
    Headquarters: Muzaffarabad (Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir)
    Lashkar-e-Toiba
    Headquarters: Muridke (Pakistan)
    Hizbul Mujahideen
    {many has changed their names now JeM, LeT}
    Peak time of annual infiltration of terrorists into India:
    Summer months, when the snows have melted, under cover of Pakistani Army firing (Washington Post, Oct. 15, 1998).

    Number of Indians in Jammu and Kashmir killed in violence waged by Pakistan-supported terrorists over the last decade: over 20,000.:((
    (To Pakistan: what goes arround comes around)

    Ethnic Cleansing in Kashmir: Nearly 300,000 Kashmiri Pandits (original Hindu inhabitants of Kashmir valley) driven out of their ancestral homeland by Pakistan-supported terrorists.:(( {no ones talking}

    Pakistan's response to charges of terrorism support: Biggest lie on the face of earth. prove me wrong "It only provides diplomatic and moral support to the terrorists". To see through this outright lie, read about the "credible reports of official Pakistani support to Kashmiri terrorist groups..." in the US State Department 1997 report on global terrorism.
    The US Tomahawk missiles killed Pakistani terrorists belonging to Harkat-ul-Ansar in the Khost camps in Afghanistan this year. These terrorists were training to fight in Kashmir.

    • The Harkat-ul-Ansar and the Lashkar-e-Toiba threatened US citizens recently in open news conferences in major cities in Pakistan (Kashmir Chronicle, Vol. 1, No. 6). The Pakistani government makes no attempt to shut down any of these groups.
    • Most recent recruits to Pakistani terrorist camps: Kashmiri Muslim children as young as 12 years old, coerced into a dead-end career by Pakistani terrorist groups(CNN Online, Oct. 8, 1998).
    • Why is the Pakistani economy in shambles? 70% of its budget goes to the military plus its debt payments, much of the military spending being on sustaining the Kashmiri terror (NY Times, Aug. 30, 1998, The Tribune, Oct. 10, 1998).

    To be continued
     
  4. ppgj

    ppgj Senior Member Senior Member

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    pakistan is a strange case. what started as a cold war tactic on the part of US to drive away the Soviet Union from afghanistan in which pakistan was an active participant- by providing the ground, men and logistics(in a way a laboratory) and later on the foolish act on the part of GOP & PA to continue the tactic against india(to bleed the economy) and afghanistan(for a flawed idea of strategic depth) has brought them to the status they face today.
    the strange case becomes even stranger for their inability or a refusal to right the wrong. while they are falling victim to their own machinations and are watching in horror bomb blasts, attacks on the soldiers- they still continue to follow the flawed path. instead of focussing all their energies on the threat, which may not only dismember their own state with the blood of innocent men, women and children, closure of schools and negating the very idea of the father of their nation, they selectively are taking actions on the basis of arm twisting. their sovereignty is being violated as they mutely watch in disbelief.
    unless GOP & PA sincerely come together and act in the interest of pakistan and act fast, this monster is going to blow away the state itself. they must know their enemy is within and not external.
    i wish them great luck and hope pakistan inches its way back to glory.
     
  5. sky

    sky Regular Member

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    Can that figure of 70% be confirmed,as it sound's a lot .The goi defence spend is about 3% of gdp while pakistans official defence spend is less then india's.what's the truth?
     
  6. Mohan

    Mohan Respected Member

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    Its not a victim. It has only shot its own foot and is putting the blame on others. They are talking about good taliban and bad taliban, morons. good taliban is a dead taliban.
     
  7. Energon

    Energon DFI stars Stars and Ambassadors

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    The disastrous blowback from the endorsement of terrorism by Pakistan is a heavily studied and published topic. The merit and veracity of this issue needless to say is beyond reproach, so this is no longer an "argument", but rather the statement of a proven fact.

    At this point, the deluded perception and obfuscation of this fact within Pakistan happens to be the biggest source of concern. Nothing will change until the decision makers and the masses of Pakistan accept and understand this problem. There will be no real advances in the purging of this noxious ideology until Pakistanis realize that terrorism and extremism are zero sum entities, and that there are no good Hindu killing terrorists. Either you stick with the ideology or you extract it entirely.

    Despite the highly publicized "change of opinion" among the Pakistani masses prior to the Swat operations, it is evident that a lot more has to be done. For one, the reason for this supposed epiphany was the flogging video that made the rounds on youtube. It is hard to believe that just one such event would change the trend in a society that has otherwise been entirely desensitized toward far greater acts of violence in the name of religion, or religious nationalism for decades on end. It seems everyone merely mistook embarrassment for a change in mass opinion. There is no evidence showing that Pakistanis want to categorically reject extremism and terrorism, even when its not aimed at them, or rather, even when its aimed at people they don't like. I am not downplaying the importance of the slight change that has taken place so far, but it should be clear that this is merely the tip of a very large ice berg.

    Just last week I attended a conference where Pakistani diplomats (with the exception of Hussain Haqqani) were still feigning innocence and subsequent ignorance when asked about Pakistan's past endorsement of terrorism as frontline state policy. When cornered with the plethora of real time intelligence that suggests the contrary they merely fell back on deflecting the blame upon "hidden hands" and "external factors." There are others within the Pakistani establishment who want to reject the Kerry Luger bill because of the harboring terrorism clauses. According to them accepting the KLB would mean "taking blame" for harboring and promotion of terrorism. I found this to be laughable considering that the entire world is aware of this fact, the only ones worried about the "blame" are people who depend upon the resuscitative aid in question to keep their country operational.

    This schizoid approach toward a problem that seems to be on a head on collision course could prove to be one of the biggest human disasters in recent history.
     
  8. bengalraider

    bengalraider DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    Pakistan has a problem , a big problem the problem is not terrorism it is how pakistan looks at itself, pakistan sees itself as the core state of islam, the islamic superpower and wishes to be the islamic voice .pakistan has had this problem since it turned islamic under general zia but then there were it's competitors ; saudi arabia with the islamic holy places wanted to be the voice too, Iran was already the shiite voice it wanted to become the pan-islamic voice, Indonesia had far more muslims than pakistan hence it got the democratic vote for being the islamic voice. pakistan wanted a trump card,the soviet invasion of afghanistan offerred a good opportunity , if pakistan helped defeat the soviets it would be the first time since the crusades that an islamic force devastated a kaffir army, it would be an instant ticket to superstardom in the islamic world; but there was abig problem the PA could not take on the soviets and win;the only way left was assymetric warfare , pakistan would become a mujahid factory funded by the saudi's and armed by America the mujahid's would defeat the soviets these same mujahids would be used against india as well. pakistan was going to be the islamic superpower the nation that defeated the U.S.S.R, except they forgot one smAll detail what do you do with millions of radicalized individuals who know nothing but killing in the name of god once their primary role(defeating the U.S.S.R) is over?it is this lack of foresight that has come to haunt pakistan, the kalashnikov culture has swept the nation and radiclaized millions of jobless youth, every city and town is affected and in the midst of all this the pakistani government still refuses to correct the initial lack of foresight, pakistan did not create this monster it was a joint creation of the ISI,CIA and the saudis, pakistan merely allowed it to breed. it is high time pakistan neuters this monster before it's brood destroy pakistan.
     
  9. NSG_Blackcats

    NSG_Blackcats Member of The Month OCTOBER 2009 Senior Member

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    Has Pakistan become the victim of a monster it created? I will answer it in two parts.

    Part I
    There is no doubt that Pakistan is pursuing terrorism as a state policy for near about two decades. This is because after 1971 war Pakistan had realized that it is impossible to defeat India in a conventional war. So they had started pursuing the proxy war. Proxy war also suits Pakistan as the cost of this kind of war is much less compared to a full scale war. Till date Pakistan is supplying arms to many Indian groups. Initially the aim of Pakistan was to only supply arms to Indian separate groups in J & K and Punjab motivated by ISI. But later on ISI created groups like LET, JEM when they saw less recruitment of locals from J & K. So everything was going on as planned by Pakistan until 9/11 happened in US. After 9/11 US realized that terrorist can also target US.

    Part II
    Now ever story has a twist. 9/11 was a twist to the story of terrorism. For me USA is as much responsible for creating terror groups as is Pakistan. CIA is as much a terror organization as is ISI. Groups like AQ and Taliban was the creation of CIA not by Pakistan. Bin Laden is a creation of CIA not Pakistan. After Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, USA was worried about the increased influence of the then USSR. So USA started a proxy was with USSR in Afghanistan with the help of mujahidin from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Chechnya and citizens of many Islamic countries. CIA provided money, weapon and training to these mujahidin. Once USSR withdraws its troops from Afghanistan, USA saw it as a victory and forgot about the arms it supplied to these so called mujahidin.

    Once Taliban took over Afghanistan, Pakistan thought of another plan. Pakistan thought of getting the much needed strategic depth in Afghanistan with the help of Taliban. So that in case of a full scale war with India, Pakistan can use Afghanistan for strategic depth for the purpose of hiding missiles and weapons. But things changed drastically once 9/11 happened and the following US attack on Afghanistan. Once US and NATO forces started operation against Taliban in Afghanistan, the terrorists associated with AQ and Taliban crossed over to Waziristan. North West Frontier province (NWFP) is a part of Pakistan which is tribal dominated. Government of Pakistan has very little control over NWFP. AQ and Taliban got support from NWFP tribal. Once US started drone attacks in many parts of NWFP it makes things complicated for Pakistan. Neither Pakistan can stop these drone attacks nor can they tell US forces to stop drone attacks. But these drone attacks made the NWFP people angry and they started taking up arms against Pakistan Army.

    So finally Pakistan has to take action against Taliban. But a section of ISI and Pakistan Army still supports Taliban. But it is in the best interest of India that Pakistan gets success in completely eliminating Taliban. We must understand Pakistan is the only buffer state between Taliban and India. It all depends upon US and NATO forces success against Taliban in Afghanistan.

    If you keep a viper close to your chest someday it will bite you. US had paid the price by 9/11 for creating AQ and Bin Laden. Pakistan is paying the price now.
     
  10. Indianrabbit

    Indianrabbit Regular Member

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    The problem with Pakistan is that they want to be selective in dealing with terrorist, this means that they want to crackdown few but let few others untouched. This will not work, I think they have to realize that, these groups are interlinked. The era of continuing terrorism as policy of state is over.
     
  11. bengalraider

    bengalraider DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    a good quote i found for pakistan to remember

    "Mercenaries and auxiliaries are useless and dangerous. for mercenaries are disunited, thirsty for power, undisciplined and disloyal:they are brave among their friends and cowards before the enemy. in peacetime you are despoiled by them and in wartime by the enemy. Mercenary commanders cannot be trusted because they are anxious to advance their own greatness,either by coercing you,or by coercing others against your wishes. Experience has shown that only armed princes and republics achieve solid success, and that mercenaries bring nothing but loss.
    Machiavelli in The Prince
     
  12. roma

    roma NRI in Europe Senior Member

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    it shouldnt have gone this route

    pak had from early days taken on a negative attitude blaming india for everything possible - they are now finding out that to run an economy , to have a good society , require a bit more than blaming your neighbours and possessing guns.

    with firm foundation in negative attitudes , it is gonna be very difficult and embarrassing to turn things around but India can and should help by assuring pak that we will not condemn them or say the usual, "i told u so " when they need our co-operation ( and that day is soon ) to get back on track for growth and a normal society .

    already Geelani is in china "begging " , ok requesting for this and that.

    first blame India then view china as the saviour

    pak will have to improve if they're ever gonna get a normal society. in europe there are lots of decent Pakistani people looking for a chance in life.

    the Taliban are making their lives miserable back home
     
  13. Indianrabbit

    Indianrabbit Regular Member

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    I do not think they can claim victim, its homegrown, I am not aware of any other country where army is so much hand in glove with terrorist.
     
  14. bengalraider

    bengalraider DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    Gen Zia and the islamization of the PA

    The PA was a pretty modern thinking and secular force to begin with however that all changed in the 1980's, Gen Zia ul haq seized power via a military coup in July 1977 and actively used and provided patronage to Pro-islamist parties and organisations in order to legitimize his rule, these supporters also helped him to undercut the mainstream political opposition to his rule. Zia ul haq was the first army chief and head of state to attend the Tableeghi jamaat at Raiwind.he then encouraged serving officers of the PA to openly associate with the organization and publicly demonstrate their religiosity , something officers of the PA had not done since 1947., in time other religious and pro-islamist groups also became associated with the PA top brass. as time progressed Zia's policies became more and more islamist army officers who displayed a higher level of religiosity like praying five times a day were often given brownie points and promoted faster than their peers. this in turn led to more and more officers joining and promoting the islamist cause. the most favored were men who had been associated with the Islami Jamaat Talaba(the student wing of Jamaat -e - Islami). Officers from an Islamist background like Lt Gen Hameed Gul & Brig. Imtiaz Ahmed led political operations to unseat comparatively secular leaders like The late Mrs Benazir Bhutto from power.
    Even after Gen. Zia's demise in an air crash in August 1988, the presence of many of his students and followers in the PA General Staff assured that his legacy remained intact the links with Islamist were not broken , in fact they were increased even Gen Musharraf demonstrated his allegiance to Zia by inducting Gen Zia's elder son Ejazul Haq as minister for religious affairs.Till date much of the officer cadre of the PA remains under the Zia spell and maintains deep links with islamist groups, this has been demonstrated by the no. of times EX-PA and serving PA personnel have been found to be associated with terror attacks.
     

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