Han Chinese Y Chromosome Test Results

Discussion in 'China' started by Ray, Jul 16, 2012.

  1. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    China claims that its population is 93% Han.

    Are they all really Han?

    Or 'barbarians' assimilated as 'Han'?
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2012
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  3. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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  4. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    The Baiyue (Chinese: 百越; pinyin: Bǎiyuè), Hundred Yue or Yue (越) is a loose term denoting various partly Sinicized or un-Sinicized peoples who inhabited southern China and northern Vietnam between the first millennium BC and the first millennium AD.

    In the Warring States period, the word "Yue" referred to the State of Yue in Zhejiang. The later kingdoms of Minyue in Fujian and Nanyue in Guangdong are both considered Baiyue states.

    Although people of Yue had a knowledge of agriculture and technology of shipbuilding, Chinese writers depicted the Yue as barbarians who had tattoos, lived in primitive conditions, and lacked such technology as bows, arrows, horses and chariots.

    The Baiyue have been compared to the lost tribes of Israel, with a great deal of speculation among Chinese historians concerning who they were and what happened to them. Connecting them to existing peoples in South China led to questions concerning the Chinese character of the South, while connecting them to the Vietnamese might validate nationalistic Vietnamese views.

    Many of the ethnic groups now inhabiting southern China and northern Vietnam are thought to be descendants of the Baiyue or have some connection to the ancient Baiyue. Variations of the name are still used in both the name of Vietnam (Chinese: 越; Vietnamese: Việt) and the abbreviation for Guangdong (Chinese: 粤; Cantonese Yale: Yuht).

    The modern term "Yue" (Chinese: 越 or 粵; pinyin: Yuè; Cantonese Yale: Yuht; Wade-Giles: Yüeh4; Vietnamese: Việt; Zhuang: Vot; Early Middle Chinese: Wuat) comes from Old Chinese *wjat.[5] It was first written using the pictograph "戉" for an axe (a homophone), in oracle bone and bronze inscriptions of the late Shang dynasty (ca. 1200 BC), and later as "越". At that time it referred to a people or chieftain to the northwest of the Shang. In the early 8th century BC, a tribe on the middle Yangtze were called the Yángyuè, a term later used for peoples further south. Between the 7th and 4th centuries BC "Yue" referred to the state of Yue in the lower Yangtze basin and its people.

    From the 3rd century BC the it was used for the non-Chinese populations of south and southwest China and northern Vietnam, with particular states or groups called Mǐnyuè, Nányuè, Luòyuè (Vietnamese: Lạc Việt), etc., collectively called the Bǎiyuè ("Hundred Yue"). The term "Baiyue" (Chinese: 百越; pinyin: Bǎiyuè; Cantonese Yale: Baak Yuht; Vietnamese: Bách Việt; Zhuang: Bouxvot) first appears in the book Lüshi Chunqiu compiled around 239 BC.

    In ancient China, the characters 越 and 粵 (both yuè in pinyin) were used interchangeably. But in modern Chinese, they are differentiated:

    The former is used to refer to the original territory of the Yue Kingdom, based in present-day northern Zhejiang Province, especially the areas around Shaoxing and Ningbo. The opera of Zhejiang, for example, is called "Yue Opera" (yuèjù, 越劇). The character "越" is also used to write Vietnam, a word adapted from Nányuè (Vietnamese: Nam Việt).

    The latter character "粵" (yuè) is associated with the southern province of Guangdong. Both the regional dialects of Yue Chinese and the standard form, popularly called "Cantonese", are spoken in Guangdong, Guangxi, Hong Kong, Macau and in many Cantonese communities around the world.

    Peoples of the lower Yangtze

    In the 5th millennium BC, the lower Yangtze area was already a major population centre, occupied by the Hemudu and Majiabang cultures, who were among the earliest cultivators of rice. By the 3rd millennium BC, the successor Liangzhu culture shows some influence from the Longshan culture of the North China Plain.

    From the 9th century BC, two northern Yue peoples, the Gou-Wu and Yu-Yue, were increasingly influenced by their Chinese neighbours to their north. These two states were based in the areas of what is now southern Jiangsu and northern Zhejiang respectively. Their aristocratic elite learned the written Chinese language and adopted Chinese political institutions and military technology. Traditional accounts attribute the cultural change to the Grand Earl of Wu (吳太伯), a Zhou prince who had fled to the south. The marshy lands of the south gave Gou-Wu and Yu-Yue unique characteristics. They did not engage in extensive agrarian agriculture, relying instead more heavily on aquaculture. Water transport was paramount in the south, so the two states became advanced in shipbuilding and developed riverine warfare technology. They were also known for their fine swords.

    In the Spring and Autumn Period, the two states, now called Wu and Yue, were becoming increasingly involved in Chinese politics. In 512 BC, Wu launched a large expedition against the large state of Chu, based in the Middle Yangtze River. A similar campaign in 506 succeeded in sacking the Chu capital Ying. Also in that year, war broke out between Wu and Yue and continued with breaks for the next three decades. In 473 BC, the Yue king Goujian finally conquered Wu and was acknowledged by the northern states of Qi and Jin. In 333 BC, Yue was in turn conquered by Chu.[9] After the fall of State of Yue, the ruling family moved south to what is now Fujian and established the Minyue kingdom.

    The kings of the state of Yue, and therefore its successor state Minyue, claimed to be descended from Yu the Great of the Chinese Xia dynasty. According to Sima Qian, Wu was founded by Wu Taibo, a brother of King Wu of the Zhou dynasty.

    Sinification and displacement

    [​IMG]

    After the unification of China by Qin Shi Huang, the former Wu and Yue states became incorporated into the Chinese empire. The Qin armies also advanced south along the Xiang River to modern Guangdong and set up commanderies along the main communication routes. "In the south he seized the land of the hundred tribes of the Yue and made of it Guilin and Xiang provinces, and the lords of the hundred Yue bowed their heads, hung halters from their necks, and pleaded for their lives with the lowest officials of the Qin," wrote Sima Qian.

    The "Treatise of Geography" in the Han Shu (completed 111 AD) describes the Yue lands as stretching from Kuaiji (in modernZhejiang) to Jiaozhi (modern northern Vietnam). Throughout theHan Dynasty period two groups of Yue were identified, that of theNanyue in the far south, who lived mainly in the area of what is now Guangdong, Guangxi, and Vietnam; and that of the Minyue to the southeast, centred on the Min River in modern Fujian. The kings of Minyue claimed to be descended from Yu the Great of the Chinese Xia dynasty.

    The kingdom of Nanyue was founded at the collapse of the Qin Dynasty in 204 BC by the local Qin commander Zhao Tuo. At its height, Nanyue was the strongest of the Baiyue states, with Zhao Tuo declaring himself emperor and receiving the allegiance of neighbouring kings. The dominant ethnicities of this kingdom were the Han and Yue, who held all the most important positions in the kingdom. Intermarriage was encouraged and was very common among the commoners, and it happened even in the royal family of Nanyue, the last king was descendant of Han and Yue. The kingdom of Nanyue was destroyed in 111 BC by an army of Emperor Wu of Han.\

    Sinification of these peoples was brought about by a combination of imperial military power, regular settlement and Chinese refugees. According to one Chinese immigrant of the second century BC, the Baiyue "cut their hair short, tattooed their body, live in bamboo groves with neither towns nor villages, possessing neither bows or arrows, nor horses or chariots." The difficulty of logistics and the malarial climate in the south made the displacement and eventual sinification of the Yue peoples a slow process. When the Chinese came into contact with local Yue peoples, they often wrested control of territory from them or subjugated them by force. When a serious rebellion broke out in 40 AD led by the Trung Sisters in what is now modern Vietnam, a force of some 10,000 imperial troops was dispatched under GeneralMa Yuan. Between 100 and 184 AD no less than seven outbreaks of violence took place, often answered with strong action by the Chinese.

    As Chinese migrants gradually increased, the Yue were gradually forced into poorer land on the hills and in the mountains. Unlike the nomadic peoples of Central Asia, such as the Xiongnu or the Xianbei, however, the Yue peoples never posed any serious threat to Chinese expansion or control. Sometimes they staged small scale raids or attacks on Chinese settlements – termed "rebellions" by traditional historians.

    Most Yue peoples were eventually sinicized, and continue to live in Zhejiang and Guangdong, the Kam–Tai (Tai–Kadai): Zhuang, Buyi, Dai, Sui (Shui), Kam (Dong), Hlai (Li), Mulam, Maonan, Ong-Be (Lingao), Thai, Lao, and Shanpeople retained their ethnic identities.

    Language

    Our knowledge of Yue speech is limited to fragmentary references and possible loanwords in other languages, principally Chinese. The longest is the "Song of the Yue boatman" (Chinese: 越人歌; pinyin: Yuèrén Gē), a short song transcribed phonetically in Chinese characters in 528 BC and included, with a Chinese version, in the Shuoyuancompiled by Liu Xiang five centuries later.

    There is some disagreement about the languages they spoke, with candidates drawn from the non-Sinitic language families still represented in areas of southern China, the Tai–Kadai, Miao–Yao (Hmong–Mien) and Austro-Asiatic. Chinese, Tai–Kadai, Miao–Yao and the Vietic branch of Austro-Asiatic have similar tone systems, syllable structure, grammatical features and lack of inflection, but these are believed to be areal features spread by diffusion rather than indicating common descent.

    Jerry Norman and Mei Tsi-Lin presented evidence that at least some Yue spoke an Austro-Asiatic language:
     Zheng Xuan (127–200 AD) wrote that (Chinese: 扎; pinyin: zā) was the word used by the Yue people (越人) to mean "die". Norman and Mei reconstruct this word as OC *tsət and relate it to Austro-Asiatic words with the same meaning, such as Vietnamese chêt and Mon chɒt.

     According to the Shuowen Jiezi (100 AD), "In Nanyue, the word for dog is (Chinese: 撓獀; pinyin: náosōu; EMC:nuw-ʂuw)". (Sōu is "hunt" in modern Chinese.)


     The early Chinese name for the Yangtze (Chinese: 江; pinyin: jiāng; EMC: kœ:ŋ; OC: *kroŋ) was later extended to a general word for "river" in south China. Norman and Mei suggest that the word is cognate with Vietnamese sông (from *krong) and Mon kruŋ "river".

    They also provide evidence of an Austro-Asiatic substrate in the vocabulary of Min Chinese dialects.[6][20] Norman and Mei's hypothesis is widely quoted, but has recently been criticized by Laurent Sagart.

    Scholars in China often assume that the Yue spoke an early form of Tai–Kadai. The linguist Wei Qingwen gave a rendering of the "Song of the Yue boatman" in the Zhuang language. Zhengzhang Shangfang proposed an interpretation of the song in written Thai (dating from the late 13th century) as the closest available approximation to the original language, but his interpretation remains controversial.

    Legacy

    The fall of the Han Dynasty and the succeeding period of division sped up the process of sinification. Periods of instability and war in northern China, such as the Northern and Southern Dynasties and during the Song Dynasty led to mass migrations of Chinese. Intermarriage and cross-cultural dialogue has led to a mixture of Chinese and non-Chinese peoples in the south.[citation needed] By the Tang Dynasty (618–907), the term "Yue" had largely become a regional designation rather than a cultural one. A state in modern Zhejiang province during the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms Period, for example, called itself "Wu-Yue". Likewise, the "Viet" in "Vietnam" (literally, "Viet South") is acognate of the "Yue".

    The impact of Yue culture on Chinese culture has not been determined authoritatively but it is clear that it is significant. The languages of the ancient states of Wu and Yue had significant influence on the modern Wu language and to some extent of the Min languages of Fujian.[citation needed] Linguistic anthropologists have also determined that a number of Chinese words can be traced to ancient Yue words, such as the word jiāng (river) mentioned above. To some extent, some remnants of the Yue peoples and their culture can also be seen in some minority groups of China and in Vietnam.

    From my electronic library.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2012
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  5. satish007

    satish007 Senior Member Senior Member

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    no more pure Han, Chinese are mix blood as Indian.
    the whole world is mixing, globalization.
     
  6. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Yes, but NO smoking Nimo and Red Dragon, amongst others, feel it otherwise!

    There is denial that the Hans (the original North of Yellow) felt everyone otherwise as 'barbarians' and that there is nothing called cooked and raw barbarians.

    That the language Mandarin was always a common language all over China.

    And that 93% Han as the population of China is indicated means all are 'pure' Han and not assimilated barbarians amongst them!

    This is merely to put the facts right and beyond the propaganda they are spreading to those who do not know China in detail!
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2012
  7. RedDragon

    RedDragon Regular Member

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    Come on, Ray. I have already said it thousand times. Han is a MIXED RACE. It has been mixed for thousands of years. And race is not important in our daily life. The intermarriage has been last for thousands years. Because mixed with different race, the north Han looks different with the South Han, we all know it!!!

    I was born in notheast China, in here the intermarriage between Han, Mengo, Manchu, Korean is very common. I myself have both the blood of Han and Manchu.
     
  8. nimo_cn

    nimo_cn Senior Member Senior Member

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    Han is never defined by blood but by culture.

    There is no such thing as pure Han, that is something made up by Ray to create a target.

    Ray, if you think that I had said something you disagree and feel compelled to argue, please quote my post here, then we can have a further discussion, otherwise you are just making cheap shots as you Indians always do.

    Oracle accused me of underestimating America's ability to shut down the whole Internet, but when I requested him to provide evidence, he went silent.

    So now I am asking you to provide evidence to prove when and where I said Han was a pure race.
     
  9. nimo_cn

    nimo_cn Senior Member Senior Member

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    I never said the language Mandarin was always a common language all over China, I only contend Chinese language is.

    Chinese=/=Mandarin .

    It is a fact that Hans consist of the majority of Chinese population, but I never said the minorities are barbarians. If you google this site, you are gonna find out that Ray is the one who uses the word "barbarians" the most.
     
  10. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Dear Lady,

    We have gone through this many a time.

    There are many such thread and they are in the archives/ destroyed.
     
  11. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Above from

    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/china/31040-chinese-language-different-dialects-5.html

    \
    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/china/31041-chinese-language-different-dialects.html

    Note how you obfuscate and deflect.

    And this is what I wrote

    Above from Thread Chinese Language and Different Dialect
    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/china/31041-chinese-language-different-dialects-2.html
     
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  12. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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  13. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    The concept of Han culture began with the Shang dynasty, 1750 -1040 BC, whose political centre was located north of the Yellow River. The Shang provided China’s first written history as well as the assertion of central cultural superiority over the surrounding people by designating as barbarians everyone who did not yet acknowledge the central government supremacy. The Chinese distinguished between ‘raw barbarians’ (shengfan) or the unassimilated people and the ‘cooked barbarians’ (shufan) or assimilated taxpayers who enjoyed the fruits of Chinese culture. For example, Han Chinese officials separated the ‘cooked’ Li of the coast of Hainan, who enjoyed the benefits of Chinese civilisation, from the wild ‘uncooked’ Li of the central forests, far from the influences of Han culture.


    Barbarians were given generic names in the Chinese classics and histories: the Yi barbarians to the east, the Man to the South, the Rong to the west and Di to the north (when westerners arrived by sea, they were officially designated until the late 19th century as Yi). Until the 1930s, the names of outgroups (wai ren) were commonly written with an animal radical: the Di, the northern tribe, were linked to the Dog; the Man and the Min of the south were characterised with reptiles; the Qiang was written with a sheep radical. This reflected the Han Chinese conviction that civilisation and culture were linked with humanity; alien groups living outside the pale of Chinese society were regarded as inhuman savages.

    That the custom of sharply distinguishing went along with calling China the Middle Kingdom (zhong guo), , which began by ruling the Central Plain (zhongyang) in North China. Rather than using outright military conquest of outsiders, the theory of ‘using the Chinese ways to transform the barbarians’ (yongxiabianyi) was promulgated. By Chinese cultural absorption or racial integration through intermarriage, a barbarian could become Han Chinese (hanhua). To be counted within China, groups accepted the rituals and cosmology that gave the Han dynastic state the Mandate of Heaven to rule over mankind. Non acceptance of this politicised culture left one outside of Zhongguo or China.


    The term race refers to groups of people who have differences and similarities in biological traits deemed by society to be socially significant, meaning that people treat other people differently because of them. For instance, while differences and similarities in eye color have not been treated as socially significant, differences and similarities in skin color have.

    Ethnicity refers to shared cultural practices, perspectives, and distinctions that set apart one group of people from another. That is, ethnicity is a shared cultural heritage. The most common characteristics distinguishing various ethnic groups are ancestry, a sense of history, language, religion, and forms of dress. Ethnic differences are not inherited; they are learned.

    Therefore Hans are not a race, but maybe an ethnic equation forced through marriage, coercion and shaming the others by making them feel that they are barbarians and crude.

    To that effect you are right that there would be few who are 'pure' Han since most are assimilated people who were imposed by force the Han culture.

    Therefore, the contention of the Chinese Govt that the population of China is 93% Han may not be correct since they are mostly of mixed blood.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2012
  14. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    This is the modern application of how assimilation is achieved in China.

    ************************


    China’s Counterinsurgency Strategy in Tibet and Xinjiang

    Separatist riots in Tibet in 2008 and in Xinjiang in 2009 demonstrated that Chinese authorities may be efficient at riot control. But the protests also indicate that China has not addressed the root causes of recurring ethnic unrest and deteriorating loyalty towards the Chinese regime among Tibetans and Uyghurs.

    Counterinsurgency is not only about eradicating insurgents. It also aims at de-linking the insurgents from the local population by undertaking societal and institutional reform. Chinese counterinsurgency usually achieves the first objective, but not the second.

    China focuses on maintaining physical security and stability by means of police and public security officials, using the People’s Liberation Army as a last resort. This approach has successfully maintained physical security by terminating large-scale violence and protecting political authorities.

    The downside to the strategy is that societal and institutional reform is crowded out. Tibetan and Uyghur minorities question China’s entitlement to rule over them because their demands for achieving greater status, prosperity, and influence are not met. The pressures on ethnic minorities for trading in cultural distinctiveness with social opportunity in China are illustrated by the inclination of Tibetans and Uyghurs to adopt Han Chinese names to conceal their genealogical inheritance.

    The unequal economic opportunities available to ethnic minorities compared to Han Chinese are demonstrated by the absence of Tibetans and Uyghurs in positions of decision-making power in profitable economic enterprises. The minimal political influence of non-Han Chinese is indicated by the lack of cooperation between Chinese officials and local Tibetan and Uyghur leaders with influence among their ethnic kin.

    One explanation of the problems of Chinese counterinsurgency is the assimilationist traits of Chinese nationalism. These engender a uniform concept of the cultural practices of the Chinese nation that is incompatible with ethnic pluralism. Another explanation is the bias towards vertical coordination within China’s political system.

    This structure allows security agencies to carry out their part of counterinsurgency efficiently. But horizontal coordination is poor between security agencies and agencies responsible for societal and institutional reform. This in turn prevents China from addressing the concerns of ethnic minorities that continue to fuel discontent.

    China’s Counterinsurgency Strategy in Tibet and Xinjiang | Asia Pacific Memo
     
  15. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    This is the crux

    One explanation of the problems of Chinese counterinsurgency is the assimilationist traits of Chinese nationalism. These engender a uniform concept of the cultural practices of the Chinese nation that is incompatible with ethnic pluralism. Another explanation is the bias towards vertical coordination within China’s political system.
     
  16. nimo_cn

    nimo_cn Senior Member Senior Member

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    Just like Oracle, if you two are not father and son, then you two must be related.


    I have searched the archives and find no such thing, would you please kindly direct me to the threads you are refering to?

    PS: Oracle's response to my request for evidence

    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...-19-000-may-lose-net-connectivity-monday.html
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2012
  17. s002wjh

    s002wjh Senior Member Senior Member

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    are you try to be racist? maybe, you ought take some ancient history of other culture, rome, mongol. then to industrail age, european 1st land in america & africa, modern history imperial japan, nazi. every nation on earth has war, etc etc
     
  18. s002wjh

    s002wjh Senior Member Senior Member

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    there are what 55 ethnic group in china, and almost all are live in china fine. tibet want more religion freedom, while Uyghurs want independent, they are treated same as han chinese. as far as economic opporunity they have more chance compare to average han chinese, as ethnic miniority can get to better school with lower test score, can have more childreen compare to han etc etc. if they choose not to learn mandrian and not take these opportunities, then this is nothing anybody can do. however they are plenty tibet/uyghur do that, and become quality engineer,businessman, police, and government official. only those who are unemployee & lower income complain about the government, which is same for any country.
     
  19. G90

    G90 Regular Member

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    Han race's indictor Y-DNA is O3a5 M-134 and O3*, which account for more than 50% of any of the Han ethnics in any region of China saving for a few "Han" living in the border area between China and Vietnam.

    Of cause Han race is not a pure race, but still it is one of the purest race in terms of Y-DNA frequency if you even follow genetic studies since few ethnics in east asia have such a high freqency of their Y-DNA belong to an unique ancestry group like Han Chinese (not Japan, their D2 only account for 40% of modern Japanese, not for mongolians, their C3c and C3 only acount for 43% of modern monglians,not for Koreans or Vietnamese, their dominating Y-DNA are not even belong to their own ancestors (which can be judged by the fact that that Y-DNA not matched by their dominating mtDNA) but Chinese).

    And northern Han race are "purer" than southern han race not by their Y-DNA (which represents their male-side ancestors) but their mtDNA (which indcates their female ancestors).

    As for baiyue, actually baiyue's Y-DNA is basically non-existenting among Southern Han race, and their mtDNA
    only become significant among Cantonese people or someone even souther.

    I dont have the genetic distance map yet, but I can bring you laterly.

    In terms of measured pair-wise genetic distance (Fst,which is pair-wised total DNA distance, not just Y-DNA or mtDNA), the Fst distance between Northern and Southern Han race is just as wide as the DNA distance between German and Swedish, and much smaller than the Fst between German and Italians, and in terms of Fst, the genetic distance between Northern and Central Han Chinese is just as wide as the Fst between Northern and Southern Germans

    So sure you can tell Han is not a pure race, but it is still far more purer than white, let along indians, which is a mess in terms of purity.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2012
  20. G90

    G90 Regular Member

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    The sample fact is Han race is far far purer than white (10x-20x purer, in terms of Fst genetic distance), and in terms of Y-DNA, it is one of the purest in the world, so deal with it, poor indians.

    No wonder white guys admits "All Chinese looks the same", which again, confirmed the fact the Fst between Chinese is far smaller than the Fst between whites (only comparable to the Fst between Swedish and German or between German and Austrians) through empirical observations, hehehe
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2012
  21. G90

    G90 Regular Member

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    Pair-wised Fst between Northern and Southern Han Chinese:

    http://i45.tinypic.com/2e1c6ix.gif

    Pair-wised Fst between different European ethinics:

    References:

    References (all are academic journal paper published after 2000):

    [1]http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B8JDD-4XSVPH4-1&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F11%2F2009&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=browse&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=d12dff5eb1f3935e0123c56ad2d19be8

    [2]http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0005472#pone.0005472.s003
     

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