Half of India's defence equipment outdated

Discussion in 'Politics & Society' started by A.V., Jan 13, 2010.

  1. A.V.

    A.V. New Member

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    NEW DELHI (Reuters) - At least half of the country's defence equipment is obsolete and needs urgent upgrade, a report said on Wednesday, underlining gaps in its defence preparedness in a region roiled by Islamist militancy and military rivalries.

    Only 15 percent of India's equipment is "state of the art", according to the first comprehensive report on the country's defence sector prepared by global consultancy firm KPMG and the Confederation of Indian Industry.

    New Delhi changed its defence procurement policy last year to further open its defence sector to the world and local companies after the Mumbai attacks in November 2008, in which 166 people were killed.

    The attack revealed glaring holes in the country's security system.

    The new report, released by Defence Minister A.K. Antony, says the country will have to focus on improving homeland security after the Mumbai attacks and the government needs to support private firms in manufacturing equipment locally.

    The government says it is keen to upgrade its largely Soviet-era arsenal to counter potential threats from Pakistan and China with a series of acquisitions and by phasing out old weapons.

    The country has lost nearly 200 Russian-made MiG series aircraft in crashes since 1990, blamed by the air force on manufacturing defects.

    The country wants to increase its air force squadrons from 34 (612 fighters) to 42 (756 fighters) by 2020 with modern aircraft. The army also needs new weapons urgently, the report said.

    Bofors Howitzers were the last major acquisition made by the Army way back in 1986, it said.

    "The Kargil conflict of 1999 (with Pakistan-based militants in Kashmir) highlighted the shortcomings of equipment held by the armed forces, highlighting the need to modernise the equipment portfolio," the report says.

    Since early 2000, India began to buy weapons from other countries like Israel and the United States to replace Russian-origin defence equipment and is now speeding up deals.

    India is currently the 10th largest defence spender in the world with an estimated 2 percent share of global expenditure.

    The United States, Britain, China, France and Japan are the leaders in global defence spending, each accounting for 3-5 percent of total global expenditure.

    Last August, the country started field trials to buy 126 multi-role fighter jets, defence officials said, moving forward on a $10.4 billion deal, one of the the biggest in play.

    India is also seeking heavy lift helicopters, submarines, ships and artillery for its army, valued at millions of dollars, the KPMG report says.

    All deals are part of a $100 billion budgetary provision over the next 10 years, Indian officials say.

    Half of India's defence equipment outdated - report | Top News | Reuters
     
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  3. bengalraider

    bengalraider DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    Why on earth would the CII be interested in funding a report by KPMG on how much of the Indian military is running on outdated equipment , no reason at all well unless they were trying to prepare a solid foundation for pushing ahead a bill designed to allow more FDI in defence production, and increase the monetary value of possible future orders from the Military establishment which would be justifiable as they after all are businessmen. Also the preparation of such a report would not be possible without overt or covert support from the General staff as well which tells me that after coming out in the papers with the reality of a possible two-front war the generals have mastered the art of pressurizing the MoD from the media, good for them!Anyhoo nice underhand played by the CII in getting such a damning report published should give sleepless nights to the mandarins in the FM and the MoD, who routinely sit on files pertaining to the sorely required mordenization of the armed forces.
     
  4. Shredder

    Shredder Regular Member

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    Open up the defense sector to private players like TATA, Mahindra etc. , allow them to develop sophisticated military hardware, Infosys can deal with software etc.,

    Majority of the military hardware is procured from foreign companies, stop this and give total emphasis to home grown R&D,

    First develop the product then start announcing the development, because what I have observed is that DRDO, HAL etc. first announce things grandly and then totally exceed the time frame by many years causing unnecessary embarrassment and loss of faith,

    Pay the scientists at DRDO other PSUs very well so that no brain drain occurs, also stop internal politics which is very rampant in these PSUs,

    I feel we can go a long way if policies like this is aggressively implemented.
     
  5. Blitz

    Blitz Founding Member

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    you will find a lot of such reports in the press because the industry has sensed the $$$ floating around in the services they would go all -out to downplay the present capabilities
    also each news agency will have their own agenda need to take all reports with a mixed view
    altough it might be true but reuters and CII are the last persons to trust in this regard
     
  6. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    I think this report shows the true and present state of affairs of Indian defence, even through it was prepared on the instruction of CII with sole motive to make more money from defence deal, still it paint real pic
     
  7. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Stupid report. 15% state of the art is good. Can you tell me how many USAF F-15s are state of the art? Most of the USAF is flying junk made in the 70s and 80s. Some replacements came but that's it.

    Their latest birds are some 200 F-15Strike Eagles and 183 F-22s. 70% of their airforce flies outdated stuff. Some 400 odd F-15C/Ds and some 1000+ old F-16s. They will get older and older till 2025. Nevertheless, they are powerful.

    That's how all militaries are 50% outdated junk, 30-35% reasonably old or upgraded stuff, and 15-20% new stuff.

    Our reporters are hopeless.
     
  8. bengalraider

    bengalraider DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    the other four permanent members of the UNSC would beg to disagree, Russia may not be the giant 20ft bear the soviet union once was but is a 15ft bear nevertheless, the lethality of Russian arms and ammunition cannot be a subject of debate they have been war proven for decades now.
    as far as basing our own defence on them is concerned i would partly agree with you relying solely on Russian manufactured hardware may or may not be a mistake but what the world has seen is that Russain hardware has a well established tradition of being rugged and war worthy to say the least India also has a knack for taking Russian legacy weapons and modifying them to be world beaters, so for us at least Russia remains a verifiable and reliable source for hardware.
     
  9. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    guy, I am not debating whether the current weapons "made by Russia" works or not.

    what i insist is that Russia industry base bee eroded and blood-shedding for decades and lose upgrading potential day by day.

    Russia still depends on the engineers trained by Soviet.the average age of those Soivet-trained Russia's engineers are 56 years old while average life expectacy of Russian men is only 60+ years old.


    the failure of Russia "Bulava" missle,and constant delay of defence projects such as 5G bird and AC for India prove how rapidly the upgrade potential of Russian defence industry declines
    Nobody can live after 2 decades of blood-shedding
     
  10. Zoravar

    Zoravar Regular Member

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    No country has even 30% state of the art,not even uncle sam.
     
  11. bengalraider

    bengalraider DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    What kind of retarded logic is that !do you mean to tell me you expect all Russian engineers to die in 5-10 yrs,if so that's retarded. it would be far more prudent for you to tell me the old guard will retire in another 4 odd yrs(in which case i would agree with you).

    As far as Russia depending solely on these engineers you are dead wrong . The older engineers are the men named/Famed for development of these systems as they are the leaders who are most respected and experienced in their respective fields, age brings a wisdom college cannot(trust me i know being an engineer myself). this does not mean that none of the greats like Mr Mikhail Aslanovich Pogosyan of Sukhoi do not have thousands of young men working under their able direction learning from them. What would be prudent is to say that none of these young men have as yet made an impact the way Mr Pogosyan has and it would come as no surprise to hear that, how many 30 yr old legends can you name? a man becomes a legend by learning acquired in life not in college.

    The Bulava is still under testing as far as it's failure or success is constituted it's still a open issue read the below record of bulava tests from Wikipedia.

    RSM-56 Bulava - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The thing is even if the Bulava fails the Yuri dologurky is a success, even if the Russians have taken an inordinately long time with the gorshkov they have given us the Talwar's on time. As for the FGFA it's not delayed beyond what is considered normal in military projects of that scale.
     
  12. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

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    [mod]this is a very stern warning to all the chinese around.

    you guys have off late tried to derail most of the threads and we have allowed you chaps to continue with your crap, but be warned, no such crap will be allowed any more.

    anyone attempting it again will be out of here and will be handed permanent ban.\

    and to rest of the guys, if there is a troll, report him, no need to feed him and in the process completely derail the thread.[/mod]
     
  13. Rage

    Rage DFI TEAM Stars and Ambassadors

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    ROFLMAO.

    @ all the pickachu's 'n' the raichu's tryin' to get a load outta this,


    Do you even know what the CII is ? The CII- the Confederation of Indian Industry - is a non-government, not-for-profit, "industry-led" and "industry-managed" organization seeking to play a "proactive role in India's development". They are a contradiction in every term, for even while they claim to enhance competitiveness and workplace recovery, they are dominated- in terms of their membership- by 90,000 companies and 7,000 organizations- mostly private - as well as MNC's and SME's from over 360 national and regional associations, and therefore represent their interests. They seek to impact public policy and economic regulation in every way, to expand business opportunities and to expedite reform so as to engorge commercial opportunities for industry- both for themselves and for their "partner organizations"- in the global network and service linkages they have. Do you think a sweeping, indiscriminate, whole-hog statement like "only 15% of India's weapons are state-of-the-art" doesn't have an agenda ? Especially, when they can barely scratch the surface with respect to the true nature of our defense industry? Particularly when the report is filed in association with a non-Indian agency, with close linkages to other foreign govts.? How daft do you have to be?


    And what do you make of this with respect to your military? Do you think you are really all that more 'modernized'? Especially when you rely on J-8 III's and Chengdu J-7's as the backbone of your air force? , both of these being relatively early-production knock-offs of the Mig-21 ? Especially, when your Navy relies- for the vast majority of your frigates - on the Type 053H/H1/HT-H/H2/H1G/H2G/H3, based on the frames of the 1950's Soviet Riga-class frigates? albeit with hull-form changed from flushdeck to long forecastle to accommodate the very big and heavy medium-speed diesel engine in, and later, a 2-screw diesel engine and an "unsatisfactorily performing" HQ-61 SAM missile system in the 1970's ? Only 7 of your 51 frigates can actually be described as "state-of-the-art"- and those are the Type-054A/B (JangkaiI class) frigates (in service and under construction) built onward from 2002. Especially, when the Chinese-produced versions of the Soviet T-54A (Type 59 and Type 69) account for over two-thirds of the total PLA (7000- tank) tank inventory? In comparison to the T-72M 'Ajeya' which accounts for 1,950 tanks of India's 5,000 strong-tank inventory?


    Who're you kiddin'?


    This report is meant for the politically daft, the easily-gullible such as you, willing to take surfeital estimates for "what they are worth". Meanwhile, we will continue to modernize and expand our military at breakneck speed.

    Now, let me give you some insight into KPMG's interest in the defense sector. KPMG’s 'Defense & Aerospace' practice composites of a network of industry and global professionals from member firms working with clients around the world. The practice is headed by Marty Phillips out of the U.S. member firm. Marty has loads of experience in the corporate side of the Aerospace & Defense industry, and has led activities associated with mergers and acquisitions, enterprise organizational transformation, risk management, functional strategies and concepts of operations: including formulating plans for consolidation of operations, personnel, facilities, equipment, and infrastructure for more than 30 years. Prior to KPMG, Marty also served with a leading Aerospace company in roles ranging from - division CFO, corporate transformation leader, as well as various positions within operations and major trans-governmental programs. KPMG's LLP's have won millions in contractor advisory and assistance services for various US D.O.D.'s, as well as companies such as Raytheon, Argon and Lockheed-Martin, all of whom stand to gain if the Indian government makes major defense acquisitions in the coming future, which process is easily expedited by a 'paper' berating the 'outdatedness' of Indian defense systems.


    If you're still worrying about where their loyalties and their interests lie, worry some more.


    I don't know about you guy, but you seriously underestimate our ability to fvck with your minds ! We are the children of Chankya after all.
     
  14. Rage

    Rage DFI TEAM Stars and Ambassadors

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    Interestingly, this is also what the joint KPMG-CII report said:


    India poised to become major defence sourcing hub: Study


    India poised to become major defence sourcing hub: Study - 1 - *National News ? News ? MSN India


    Hmm, this "outdated, antiquated" country is poised to become a "major hub of defence-sourcing". Interesting...
     
  15. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

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    I can not understand the fuss over this report, even if has been carried out at the behest of cii. One of the best consultancy house was engaged to carry out the studies, kpmg, and quite clearly the kind of report they can come out with, even the armed forces cant, that is the expertise they carry in this domain and it is not as if the study was carried without the consent of the MoD, which in it self shows the interest on part of MoD/GoI to know the exact status of the hardware/software with in the armed forces, as they go about the modernization process of the armed forces.

    cii made a proposal to the MoD, which got accepted, the expenses of which would have been all borne by the cii. As a business community, cii holds every authority to get this study done, so as to understand areas where they should keep a focus on, and yes the cii will be instrumental in forcing the MoD/GoI to go for modern equipment and when the tender comes out, they will all lobby hard to get a share of the pie, and that is exactly how a business works, and cii is not the first business community that has got such a study done, it’s a part of best practices followed across the globe, by some of the finest business communities and defence forces.

    Did the report have the heading, as is suggested and so suggestive? Do people think cii is so naïve? Absolutely no, do people not know how the media highlights one point to sensationalize and sell their news content, and it is precisely because of this highlighted part that people have started to discuss this report here and else where, and if seen from the eyes of such a tabloid or a sensationalist media house the content comes across as well sold. At least we here, who are such enthusiasts should not fall for such propaganda so easily. The highlighted part was just a point raised, which has nothing to do with how a certain us armed force is like because if such a report would have been done for them, the same would have also been highlighted for the as well.
     
  16. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    I don't get why people are defencive about it. It is a good wakeup call to get GoI and FinMin to stop derailing the procurement process.

    Someone tried comparing US percentages to that of India, total non-comparision. What the US considers "mature" is "state of the art" for India and most of the developed world.
     
  17. venkat

    venkat Regular Member

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    i read recently that pak armed forces can buy what ever they want!!!! .no L1 L2..to Ln business!! They are openly and /or clandestinely and systematically procuring weapons of their choice!!! i was following a noble gesture by BR guys about procuring quickclot kits through donations and sending it to the units directly. a simple thing of buying kits and donating it to the army could not take place ,with out so many ifs and buts , procedures, protocols etc... even after a stupendous effort put up by the members who took a bold and patriotic initiative,ultimately they were not sure whether the money collected and donated will be spent on buying quick clot kits or not!!!! If there is so much procedure wrangle even for accepting a whole hearted donation,you can imagine the amount of confusion.interference,manipulation,favouritism, partiality,pure insane greed by influential politicians,dalals,middlemen,agents,babus, its pure devil's imagination the fingering that one can expect in our defence deals worth billions and billions!!!
     
  18. ..Azad

    ..Azad Regular Member

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    CII is now in forefront to facilitate many defence deals and aiding Indian armed forces to meet its future requirements. Its good that private players are upto this lobbying game, as this will make GOI babu’s to meet there palm grease within India, saving exchequers going to foreign bank accounts. Whether one likes or not, lobbying is a gospel truth and it’s a worldwide practice. If CII or some other individual player wants GOI to shed some money for its product, its always better than Indian Army choosing T-90 over Arjun.

    Just look at the Arjun story, it’s the best MBT India have in its inventory but still Army does’t want it, why? Answer is simple – palm grease. Don’t go by what wiki or any other shoddy article says. I will believe what had been tabled in parliament by MoD to Defence parliamentary committee. No babu can lie in parliament house, and look what these MoD babu’s have to say in report – I am quoting exact words from that report


    Well i can understand that Army needs a 40ton MBT for its eastern border with China, but DRDO was offering Arjun system on T-72 turret - but no - ppls have to secure there bloody pension plans. Now if Indian army can defy this over imported system, which comes with lucrative under table bestows – then its better to have Indian players to take the driving seat from these Rosoboren’s , Boeing’s or Boforses. If ‘state-of-art’ means ‘state-of-commission’ – its better that these ‘state-of -art’ goes to Indian Industry.


    Lobbing is here to stay as private players grows, the matter of concern is, who is going to have the pie - Indian or Non-Indian consortiums. And yes nothing is outdated till it surpasses its life period and have some role to play in doctrine.



    P.S:- 37% of all Russian arm exports goes to China till date, and Russian arms makes 90% of China’s total arm import, making them the best toys in there own pileup, so chicoms pls excuse.
     
  19. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Russia sold $8.5 billion in arms last year... $1 billion went to China. That makes about 12% of sales.
     
  20. ..Azad

    ..Azad Regular Member

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    Champ, withstanding my poor english but 'till date' still doesn't means 'one yr' or 'last yr'. Go and download CIA document on chinese arm procurement.
     
  21. ..Azad

    ..Azad Regular Member

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    It still doesn't makes one yr or last yr, ever heard of idioms. But cant blame u, perfectionism comes with red army drills.
     

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