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Am I to understand such simple facts the IAF cannot answer when asked by the RM?
If not, disband them.
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HAL Looks To Hulk-Smash IAF's Avro Replacement Effort
- Thread starter Lions Of Punjab
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If not, disband them.
PaliwalWarrior
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grampiguy
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If the communication is the main motive of IAF for AVRO replacement, it could also induct Dornier 328 or Dornier 328 JET. They can be entirely built in India since HAL and TATA both have license and infrastructure to build them locally. Moreover, they can even push these companies to develop further iterations of Dornier like 428 or 728 JET versions with joint IP with RUAG which will take care of a mid-class jet manufacture in India. As there is already a strong base of Dornier 228 aircraft in the country, this is not only achievable but also the cheaper option.
Air Chief also mentioned that he was gradually going to increase the number of C-130J in IAF. When Lockheed is mentioning that they will transfer entire production line if the IAF gives an order of minimum 40 aircraft, why can't some progress be done in this regard?? Where is long term planning and futuristic thinking of IAF?? What is the point of 6 C-130J order earlier, then another six last year and then one more this year, then probably seven more to be ordered...
Air Chief also mentioned that he was gradually going to increase the number of C-130J in IAF. When Lockheed is mentioning that they will transfer entire production line if the IAF gives an order of minimum 40 aircraft, why can't some progress be done in this regard?? Where is long term planning and futuristic thinking of IAF?? What is the point of 6 C-130J order earlier, then another six last year and then one more this year, then probably seven more to be ordered...
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Khagesh
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My jaw just dropped at first when I saw Avro and Patrol in the same sentence. IAF had found the reason why it needed the replacements!
But no they have somehow (don't ask me how) gotten the 'Communication' requirement of IAF clubbed with 'Patrol' requirement of Indian Coast Guards.
One funny comment on that link:
Compiled from wiki, on the matter of IAF transporters:
IAF TRANSPORTERS///NOS.///MAX. PAYLOAD IN KGS///FLEET HAULAGE IN TONS
C-17 Globemaster///10///77519///775
Ilyushin Il-76 Candid///17///50000///850
C-130J Super Hercules///5///19958///100
Hawker Siddeley HS 748///59///5136///303
Antonov An-32 Cline///100///5000///500
Dornier Do 228///40///2340///94
IAF honchos are funny people. Remember, last time we had to had C-17 because it could carry ONE Arjun Tank but IL-76 could not.
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proud_indian
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Breaking & Exclusive: Great Make-in-India news! Kudos to @DefenceMinIndia HAL contemplates Avro upgrade instead of Avro replacement.
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we should mass produce these tactical transport planes with few modification like china ,it can add huge capability to iaf at low cost but improve avionics
proud_indian
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The problem is lying within HAL itself. Even after assembling/manufacturing tons of foreign-designed aircraft we are still looking at foreign companies for their replacements. I mean what is the point of license manufacturing a foreign-designed aircraft, if we can't build upon the experience they gained building them. It'd be better if instead of license manufacture they acquired then off the shelf. At least we would have saved a lot of money.
proud_indian
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BTW they did the same futile exercise in 2013 but nothing substantive came out of it
proud_indian
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HAL Proposing Upgradation Of IAF's Avro HS-748 Transport Aircrafts?
Better engines, advanced auto-pilot systems, among others, being looked into, for this 50s aircraft. What, then, happens to the program to replace it?
via simFlight Forum
The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited [HAL] recently issued a 'Request For Information' [RFI] for a proposal to replace the Gas Turbine-powered turbo-prop engines of the Indian Air Force's [IAF] Hawker Siddeley's Avro HS 748 medium-lift transport aircraft. It seeks to replace the currently used British Rolls-Royce Dart 533-2 & 536-2T engines, which HAL license-built, with a modern solution that churns out more power, demonstrates better fuel efficiency1, and also weighs less & has dimensions no bigger than the ones presently used. To get an idea of how old the engines & the aircraft it powers are, the engine has already found its way into HAL's Heritage Museum, its manufacturer in India, even as it powers this IAF aircraft, as of today.
Any change of Engine would also likely require change to systems connected to it, like the Gear Box transferring power to the aircraft's auxiliary systems, like Cabin Supercharger, Tachometer, Generator etc, possibly requiring their replacement too. HAL, over the past one year, has been issuing similar notification soliciting 'Expression of Interest' for other sub-systems for incorporating into this aircraft, like improved Autopilot system & Weather Radar, fitting it with Multi-Function Display [MFD] & Flight Data Recorder [FDR], that would, no doubt, lessen its obsolescence.
HAL states that 59 flight-worthy HS-748 airframes in the country, have notched relatively fewer flying hours of around 350 hours/annum & have, thus, substantial residual life of around 80,000 hours to warrant such an upgrade. The HAL website informs of already having carried out a limited upgrade of its Navigation & Communication systems. However, given the nature of systems, like its engine & radar, that is sought to be replaced this time, one could infer that this possible life-extension move aims to prolong its use much beyond 2020, when it was expected to cease service with the IAF. 59, actually 56, is also the number that is sought to be replaced. So essentially, HAL is asserting that entire fleet of these IAF aircrafts have sufficient life left in them, so as to preclude any replacement plans. This being the case, it raises an interesting question. One has been reading reports suggesting a move to replace these aircrafts, designed in the 1950s, with a contemporary solution. In fact, as being bandied, it would have been a showcase project, of sorts, wholly undertaken by the country's private sector, with no involvement of the state-owned monopoly, the HAL, in the production process. However, given the stifling nature of current policies governing domestic Defence production, & the military's habit of placing orders in a piecemeal manner, that wouldn't afford first-time manufacturers the benefit of economies of scale, this move to let India Inc. handle the project hasn't been met with the kind of enthusiasm GoI had hoped for. No reports in the MSM to suggest any forward movement on this front.
This HAL-issued notification also leads one to ask if the IAF is already on board this proposal, or whether HAL hopes to sell this idea to its captive customer, once it itself is suitably confident of its viability. If one were a betting person, one would bet money on the fact that it is the latter. For one, there are no reports presently in the MSM that indicate any intent to go the upgrade route. With the Govt already having decided to let the private sector handle the Avro-replacement project, HAL would essentially be bereft of any share in this pie, if the proposal does see fructification. Thus, it would make great sense for it to extract maximum possible mileage from this aircraft, which it license produced, by prolonging its use with the IAF, possibly even scuttling the original one. Not factoring in maintainability of a vintage system, the economic cost of this upgrade is likely to be much lower than building a new airframe from the ground up. Given the recent depreciation of the Indian Rupee. that continues, any proposal that promises to lessen the burden on the state exchequer is likely to get a sympathetic hearing too. Going in HAL's favour is also the, aforementioned, near non-response from India Inc.. Any such HAL intentions is presently at a preliminary stage, as it has only just issued a RFI.
One of the requirement that stands out is the need for one of the engines to operate in "Hotel Mode" - keeping one of the engines running when the bird is on the ground, but preventing propeller movement, for powering the HS 748's electrical systems, even when not flying. This function is normally performed by an Auxiliary Power Unit [APU]. The HS748 is believed to be fitted with a British Rover Company-built small Gas Turbine engine for this purpose. Use of the aircraft's main engine in 'Hotel Mode' precludes the use of an APU, leading to weight savings. However, its use in this manner poses some significant drawbacks. Most obvious one among them being the differential wearing of the engines, the one used for this purpose would fail faster. Besides this, it also poses certain operational hazards. Considering that the propeller is prevented from rotating using a braking arrangement, failure of the brake would lead to a catastrophic situation if there are human presence in the vicinity at that moment. It would, therefore, require adoption of Standard Operating Procedures [SOP] that address this hazard. It is thus a trade-off between a less hazardous work environment or weight saving, something HAL would surely have given sufficient thought to prior to stipulating such requirement.
Coming back to the issue at hand, that of upgrading this aircraft, it surely is an interesting proposition, though one can't say one agrees with the proposal, in the limited amount of time one has thought about it. Ensuring continued reliability & maintainability of an aircraft is an equally capital intensive proposition, whose value piles up through the passage of time. This is especially true for a legacy platform such as the Avro HS-748. Present financial conditions permitting, It would be much more prudent & cost-effective, in the long run, to operate a modern aircraft, instead of flogging an old horse, however well-rested it is claimed to be. As rightly envisaged by the Government, this Avro replacement program is an ideal springboard for adding capacity & building capability in the private sector, boosting indigenous production, spurring healthy competition, breaking the shackles of monopoly of state-owned DPSU, all leading to a satisfied & confident customer - the Indian Armed Force. The Government would be well-advised in expending its political capital in ensuring that the original programme gets off the metaphorical ground & all HS-748 aircrafts are honourably retired, before they begin acquiring notorious reputations.
http://www.aame.in/2013/08/hal-proposing-upgradation-of-iaf-avro.html
Better engines, advanced auto-pilot systems, among others, being looked into, for this 50s aircraft. What, then, happens to the program to replace it?
via simFlight Forum
The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited [HAL] recently issued a 'Request For Information' [RFI] for a proposal to replace the Gas Turbine-powered turbo-prop engines of the Indian Air Force's [IAF] Hawker Siddeley's Avro HS 748 medium-lift transport aircraft. It seeks to replace the currently used British Rolls-Royce Dart 533-2 & 536-2T engines, which HAL license-built, with a modern solution that churns out more power, demonstrates better fuel efficiency1, and also weighs less & has dimensions no bigger than the ones presently used. To get an idea of how old the engines & the aircraft it powers are, the engine has already found its way into HAL's Heritage Museum, its manufacturer in India, even as it powers this IAF aircraft, as of today.
Any change of Engine would also likely require change to systems connected to it, like the Gear Box transferring power to the aircraft's auxiliary systems, like Cabin Supercharger, Tachometer, Generator etc, possibly requiring their replacement too. HAL, over the past one year, has been issuing similar notification soliciting 'Expression of Interest' for other sub-systems for incorporating into this aircraft, like improved Autopilot system & Weather Radar, fitting it with Multi-Function Display [MFD] & Flight Data Recorder [FDR], that would, no doubt, lessen its obsolescence.
HAL states that 59 flight-worthy HS-748 airframes in the country, have notched relatively fewer flying hours of around 350 hours/annum & have, thus, substantial residual life of around 80,000 hours to warrant such an upgrade. The HAL website informs of already having carried out a limited upgrade of its Navigation & Communication systems. However, given the nature of systems, like its engine & radar, that is sought to be replaced this time, one could infer that this possible life-extension move aims to prolong its use much beyond 2020, when it was expected to cease service with the IAF. 59, actually 56, is also the number that is sought to be replaced. So essentially, HAL is asserting that entire fleet of these IAF aircrafts have sufficient life left in them, so as to preclude any replacement plans. This being the case, it raises an interesting question. One has been reading reports suggesting a move to replace these aircrafts, designed in the 1950s, with a contemporary solution. In fact, as being bandied, it would have been a showcase project, of sorts, wholly undertaken by the country's private sector, with no involvement of the state-owned monopoly, the HAL, in the production process. However, given the stifling nature of current policies governing domestic Defence production, & the military's habit of placing orders in a piecemeal manner, that wouldn't afford first-time manufacturers the benefit of economies of scale, this move to let India Inc. handle the project hasn't been met with the kind of enthusiasm GoI had hoped for. No reports in the MSM to suggest any forward movement on this front.
This HAL-issued notification also leads one to ask if the IAF is already on board this proposal, or whether HAL hopes to sell this idea to its captive customer, once it itself is suitably confident of its viability. If one were a betting person, one would bet money on the fact that it is the latter. For one, there are no reports presently in the MSM that indicate any intent to go the upgrade route. With the Govt already having decided to let the private sector handle the Avro-replacement project, HAL would essentially be bereft of any share in this pie, if the proposal does see fructification. Thus, it would make great sense for it to extract maximum possible mileage from this aircraft, which it license produced, by prolonging its use with the IAF, possibly even scuttling the original one. Not factoring in maintainability of a vintage system, the economic cost of this upgrade is likely to be much lower than building a new airframe from the ground up. Given the recent depreciation of the Indian Rupee. that continues, any proposal that promises to lessen the burden on the state exchequer is likely to get a sympathetic hearing too. Going in HAL's favour is also the, aforementioned, near non-response from India Inc.. Any such HAL intentions is presently at a preliminary stage, as it has only just issued a RFI.
One of the requirement that stands out is the need for one of the engines to operate in "Hotel Mode" - keeping one of the engines running when the bird is on the ground, but preventing propeller movement, for powering the HS 748's electrical systems, even when not flying. This function is normally performed by an Auxiliary Power Unit [APU]. The HS748 is believed to be fitted with a British Rover Company-built small Gas Turbine engine for this purpose. Use of the aircraft's main engine in 'Hotel Mode' precludes the use of an APU, leading to weight savings. However, its use in this manner poses some significant drawbacks. Most obvious one among them being the differential wearing of the engines, the one used for this purpose would fail faster. Besides this, it also poses certain operational hazards. Considering that the propeller is prevented from rotating using a braking arrangement, failure of the brake would lead to a catastrophic situation if there are human presence in the vicinity at that moment. It would, therefore, require adoption of Standard Operating Procedures [SOP] that address this hazard. It is thus a trade-off between a less hazardous work environment or weight saving, something HAL would surely have given sufficient thought to prior to stipulating such requirement.
Coming back to the issue at hand, that of upgrading this aircraft, it surely is an interesting proposition, though one can't say one agrees with the proposal, in the limited amount of time one has thought about it. Ensuring continued reliability & maintainability of an aircraft is an equally capital intensive proposition, whose value piles up through the passage of time. This is especially true for a legacy platform such as the Avro HS-748. Present financial conditions permitting, It would be much more prudent & cost-effective, in the long run, to operate a modern aircraft, instead of flogging an old horse, however well-rested it is claimed to be. As rightly envisaged by the Government, this Avro replacement program is an ideal springboard for adding capacity & building capability in the private sector, boosting indigenous production, spurring healthy competition, breaking the shackles of monopoly of state-owned DPSU, all leading to a satisfied & confident customer - the Indian Armed Force. The Government would be well-advised in expending its political capital in ensuring that the original programme gets off the metaphorical ground & all HS-748 aircrafts are honourably retired, before they begin acquiring notorious reputations.
http://www.aame.in/2013/08/hal-proposing-upgradation-of-iaf-avro.html
proud_indian
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@Enquirer your thoughts on this development.
I am always a big fan of stretching the useful life of existing assets.
Given that IAF (and all branches of Indian military) budget is limited, they should try and get the best mileage. Replacing the engines to take advantage of the residual life of the aircraft is very prudent.
vampyrbladez
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Depends on the airworthiness of the airframes.
They're claiming 80,000 hours of life remaining!
vampyrbladez
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Great job then. We need all the airlift capability in a two front war.
