HAL developing new varaint LCA-1P

[Mad Indian]

Saurav Jha is no engineer but he is usually fed good info by his sources.

I am not saying its impossible. But all this monkey business about Mk-1P makes me fear for the Mk-1 and Mk-2.

". it used to be that the landing gear was weak in LCA and so extra weight was added to strengthen it. So to balance this new weight increase, some kind of ballast was added to maintain the aerodynamic stability of the LCA . now , Hal is taking help of EAD to strengthen the landing gear, which if done will remove the need for the ballast, and this will provide the necessary weight reduction. So the upto 700 kg can be reduced by this manner."


This is what I read in another forum.

But knowing Hal , I wouldn't trust them till they deliver.

 

[Mad Indian]

If such a moron had held the highest post in IAF, no wonder the IAF leadership today is under question! Tejas is short-range? For a 'LIGHT' fighter it has substantial range, and what was he wishing for - a expeditionary force like USA has? What is Indias need - to protect its boundary or striking 1000s miles away?

Endurance will vary greatly and that's what probably was alluded to by him. He is right. LCA can't be compared to rafale . and we don't know if LCA is adequate since we are not the end users.

 

[jackprince]

I remember Modi telling Parrikar to shut his face and stay out of the media the last time he said no more Rafale would be bought. Now he has some underling leaking to the press his statement as he cowers in the shadows. The armed services give the government a shopping list and it is their job to procure it at the best price possible. It is not the place of Parrikar to tell the IAF chief that he has to accept inferior fighters to meet political objectives. The politicians do not dictate India's defence needs.

Ooooooo....strong words!!! You perhaps do not know, but Parrikar is not a babe in politics or BJP or RSS affiliation, that he would 'cower' and Modi would 'rebuke' him.

And, politicos has the duty to fulfill India's defence needs IN ADDITION to other needs like economical to development to diplomatic. IAF NEVER dictates or can dictate the MoD what to buy, it only has power to propose, and minister with sue consultation with IAF and other advisors and committees decide whther the requirement is actually viable to be fulfilled.

It is Parrikar's place to dictate terms when IAF refuse to see the fiscal reality and future benefit by wanting a foreign machine, and rejecting an indigenous machine. Particularly when it is clear that the IAF brass has an uncanny greed for foreign goods.

 

[jackprince]

Endurance will vary greatly and that's what probably was alluded to by him. He is right. LCA can't be compared to rafale . and we don't know if LCA is adequate since we are not the end users.

Bro, I know you loath DRDO and in extension HAL. I will also admit that those two organisations' performance record has not been stellar, but that too was no less for IAF's lack of enthusiasm for domestic product. Also, IAF wanted a Light Combat Aircraft, which of course is not going to be of comparable performance of Rafale. No way in the world a Light fighter can have endurance of a Medium weight fighter - simple physics would not allow it and being a retd. chief of Air forces, he should have known that.
All over the world, except possibly the USA, no country can ever fully satisfy their armed forces' wants. None simply have the funds. Certainly not an emerging economy like India. The Rafale is way too expensive to be feasible for India to buy in such a no. as wanted by the IAF. Also, you need to nurture your home made machine for not only your future tech developmwnt but also for fiscal benefit and having not inducted LCA, IAF and earlier GoI have shown criminal negligence.

Will you say the same when IAF starts blocking AMCA in coming years too?

For peotecting our borders, a large no. of light fighters are what we need at present, not small nos. of heavier fighters which are so expensive that other acquisitions will have to be put on hold to pay for those. Leave aside the benefit of having our own fighter.

 

[Mad Indian]

Bro, I know you loath DRDO and in extension HAL. I will also admit that those two organisations' performance record has not been stellar, but that too was no less for IAF's lack of enthusiasm for domestic product. Also, IAF wanted a Light Combat Aircraft, which of course is not going to be of comparable performance of Rafale. No way in the world a Light fighter can have endurance of a Medium weight fighter - simple physics would not allow it and being a retd. chief of Air forces, he should have known that.
All over the world, except possibly the USA, no country can ever fully satisfy their armed forces' wants. None simply have the funds. Certainly not an emerging economy like India. The Rafale is way too expensive to be feasible for India to buy in such a no. as wanted by the IAF. Also, you need to nurture your home made machine for not only your future tech developmwnt but also for fiscal benefit and having not inducted LCA, IAF and earlier GoI have shown criminal negligence.

Will you say the same when IAF starts blocking AMCA in coming years too?

For peotecting our borders, a large no. of light fighters are what we need at present, not small nos. of heavier fighters which are so expensive that other acquisitions will have to be put on hold to pay for those. Leave aside the benefit of having our own fighter.

I agree with you on what you are saying but my grievence is that we are stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea.


Anyway, @Decklander was saying that LCA mk1a will be a potent beast . so keeping my fingers crossed. Hope DM keeps a tight lease on Hal reg this matter.

 

[Armand2REP]

Ooooooo....strong words!!! You perhaps do not know, but Parrikar is not a babe in politics or BJP or RSS affiliation, that he would 'cower' and Modi would 'rebuke' him.

Lest you forget he was ordered to media silence for 6 months last June which means he can't say anything until the end of the year. So yes, he is hiding while his underlings get his message out.

And, politicos has the duty to fulfill India's defence needs IN ADDITION to other needs like economical to development to diplomatic. IAF NEVER dictates or can dictate the MoD what to buy, it only has power to propose, and minister with sue consultation with IAF and other advisors and committees decide whther the requirement is actually viable to be fulfilled.

Actually, it is the services that provide the ministry with its wish list, then it goes to committee. The ministry does not dictate what is on that list. They don't know the first thing about what the services need. That is why they pay Generals, Admirals and Air Marshals to know about it.

It is Parrikar's place to dictate terms when IAF refuse to see the fiscal reality and future benefit by wanting a foreign machine, and rejecting an indigenous machine. Particularly when it is clear that the IAF brass has an uncanny greed for foreign goods.

If it was up to Parrikar there would be no Rafale at all. It is his job to get the money the services need by making the case to GoI. He is failing miserably because he doesn't agree with the top brass who know what it needs. He is making it all a political game while the services suffer with rusting junk.

 

[jackprince]

Lest you forget he was ordered to media silence for 6 months last June which means he can't say anything until the end of the year. So yes, he is hiding while his underlings get his message out.

No, he personally declared that he is not going say anything in media since media has been distorting his words. Also, this 6 months silence things and Modi's rebuke are all media's creation, and just see that we have a believer! In India, it has become an act of prudence to take whatever our media says to take with a large spoon of salt.

Actually, it is the services that provide the ministry with its wish list, then it goes to committee. The ministry does not dictate what is on that list. They don't know the first thing about what the services need. That is why they pay Generals, Admirals and Air Marshals to know about it.

When did I say that minister dictates his own wish? I said IAF 'proposes' and MoD decides. The judgement of Brass when comes to weapon acquisition in India at least, can hardly be trusted blindly, when their tastes in machines is almost always becomes less feasible to meet with fiscal reality.

If it was up to Parrikar there would be no Rafale at all.

I am still not sure that would be very bad thing.

It is his job to get the money the services need by making the case to GoI. He is failing miserably because he doesn't agree with the top brass who know what it needs. He is making it all a political game while the services suffer with rusting junk.

No, it is not his job to get the money. He is not a business entrepreneur and Govt. is not a business enterprise. He has to get money keeping his eyes open to economical reality when his subordinates in armed forces have failed to do that. Indian top brass would reach for all the best goodies in the world if they can , but Indian economy cannot permit that, comprende?

Also, services suffering with rusting junk is not his fault, but IAF's own fault by having rejected offers of Mirage production facility offered back in 90s. It then took years to determine that MMRCA is required and then performed a lengthy process of selecting the Rafale. Then the UPA govt. got cold feet and when NDA came into power, Rafale became greedy or may be it already was lying to be the L1.

The services would have stopped having those rusting junks, had they started inducting LCA long back, and accepted proposal of having tranche based improvements for their fighters - just like all of the armed forces with indigenous products do all over the world. No, IAF is too good for indigenous products! The morons don't even understand how a indigenous tech is developed, even though their counterparts in Navy have been doing for decades!

Also, I would say scrap Rafale and go for EFT, since it has been proven that Rafale lied from the beginning.

 

[Yumdoot]

". it used to be that the landing gear was weak in LCA and so extra weight was added to strengthen it. So to balance this new weight increase, some kind of ballast was added to maintain the aerodynamic stability of the LCA . now , Hal is taking help of EAD to strengthen the landing gear, which if done will remove the need for the ballast, and this will provide the necessary weight reduction. So the upto 700 kg can be reduced by this manner."


This is what I read in another forum.

But knowing Hal , I wouldn't trust them till they deliver.

Yes, the landing gear was made heavier and there would be benefits from the iterative exercise you suggest.

I had reported Saurav Jha's tweet because what happens is the work is actually going to be considerably more complex in some other manners if the weight reduction exercise is attempted beyond a certain limit. And some parts of the system may be resisting this late ideation from johnnys come lately. Which itself may be to divert scares resources from other more pressing projects.

In fact even this simpler iterative exercise you suggest will ultimately keep the LCA Mk-2 from every coming about.

This, when in fact, much of the initial LCA Mk-2 work has already been done. The funding for Mk-2 can be regarded as disguised funding for initial part of AMCA too, considering the earlier plan that AMCA prototypes will start to fly with some amount of LCA Mk-2 tech.

 

[Immanuel]

I remember Modi telling Parrikar to shut his face and stay out of the media the last time he said no more Rafale would be bought. Now he has some underling leaking to the press his statement as he cowers in the shadows. The armed services give the government a shopping list and it is their job to procure it at the best price possible. It is not the place of Parrikar to tell the IAF chief that he has to accept inferior fighters to meet political objectives. The politicians do not dictate India's defence needs.

While I remember Modi telling the French to fuck off beyond the 36 Rafale being peddled just last week, just consider yourself lucky that this gutter deal is still being discussed, while I can still always rely on your folk to mess it all up. We know fully which aircraft is superior, an MKI will essentially send the Rafale to its grave any day. We also know sadly the kind of top management that has plagued the IAF for nearly a decade.

 

[Immanuel]

HAL has help from EADS on dropping the weight, upto 700kg can be shaved off with taking out the ballast, re-working the landing gear, no major issues there. I also think they will save more weight on the engines. GE has been testing CMCs on the F414 for quite some time and results have been great, weight reduction can easily be around 150Kg. I am sure these CMCs will be implemented onto next batch of the F404 IN20 engines. This should also increase the max. thrust by 10%, reduce SFC by 25% and increase range by 30%.

http://www.gereports.com/post/110549411475/ceramic-matrix-composites-allow-ge-jet-engines-to/

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/general-electric-primes-cmc-for-turbine-blades-349834/

http://www.airforce-technology.com/...sed-f414-turbofan-demonstrator-engine-4510353

 

[Armand2REP]

No, he personally declared that he is not going say anything in media since media has been distorting his words. Also, this 6 months silence things and Modi's rebuke are all media's creation, and just see that we have a believer! In India, it has become an act of prudence to take whatever our media says to take with a large spoon of salt.

He personally declared a set time limit? Nah, he was ordered. Media doesn't create a time limit for Parikarr to shut his mouth. His boss tells told him to zip his lip for six months because he was making life hell for the administration with his contradictory statements.

When did I say that minister dictates his own wish? I said IAF 'proposes' and MoD decides. The judgement of Brass when comes to weapon acquisition in India at least, can hardly be trusted blindly, when their tastes in machines is almost always becomes less feasible to meet with fiscal reality.

MoD doesn't create the list, the services do. MoD takes the list to get it financed and this is where he fails, on purpose I suspect.

I am still not sure that would be very bad thing.

As long as China doesn't attack... you would be right.

No, it is not his job to get the money. He is not a business entrepreneur and Govt. is not a business enterprise. He has to get money keeping his eyes open to economical reality when his subordinates in armed forces have failed to do that. Indian top brass would reach for all the best goodies in the world if they can , but Indian economy cannot permit that, comprende?

You can defund HAL/DRDO and sell it to the private sector... problem solved.

Also, services suffering with rusting junk is not his fault, but IAF's own fault by having rejected offers of Mirage production facility offered back in 90s. It then took years to determine that MMRCA is required and then performed a lengthy process of selecting the Rafale. Then the UPA govt. got cold feet and when NDA came into power, Rafale became greedy or may be it already was lying to be the L1.

IAF knew a decade ago it wanted Rafale, it was politics and babu that delay. Parikarr is just the latest cog in the wheel of modernisation.

The services would have stopped having those rusting junks, had they started inducting LCA long back, and accepted proposal of having tranche based improvements for their fighters - just like all of the armed forces with indigenous products do all over the world. No, IAF is too good for indigenous products! The morons don't even understand how a indigenous tech is developed, even though their counterparts in Navy have been doing for decades!

They couldn't induct LCA, it fails 53 safety and operational requirements today. Back then it failed hundreds. It cannot in good conscience be inducted when it was designed for a different age where tactical fighters rise from its base and defend a very small area. IAF has to think more strategically when talking about China.

Also, I would say scrap Rafale and go for EFT, since it has been proven that Rafale lied from the beginning.

IDK what lie you are referring to, but the Holland government was lied to by Modi when he agreed to 30% offsets and then demand 50%.

 

[Yumdoot]

HAL has help from EADS on dropping the weight, upto 700kg can be shaved off with taking out the ballast, re-working the landing gear, no major issues there. I also think they will save more weight on the engines. GE has been testing CMCs on the F414 for quite some time and results have been great, weight reduction can easily be around 150Kg. I am sure these CMCs will be implemented onto next batch of the F404 IN20 engines. This should also increase the max. thrust by 10%, reduce SFC by 25% and increase range by 30%.

http://www.gereports.com/post/110549411475/ceramic-matrix-composites-allow-ge-jet-engines-to/

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/general-electric-primes-cmc-for-turbine-blades-349834/

http://www.airforce-technology.com/...sed-f414-turbofan-demonstrator-engine-4510353

One of the links you provide has this:

Since blades made from CMCs are so light, they allow engineers to reduce the size and weight of the metal disk to which they are attached (the shiny steel part in the center), and design lighter and more efficient jet engines. Image credit: GE Aviation.

You see this is extensive changes to the engine.

Now try thinking what would happen to LCA Mk-1 if the same approach is taken with the LCA Mk-1A.

1) Reduce Landing gear weight
2) Reduce corresponding ballast
3) Now the structure does not need to support say 400 kg weight. Ergo demands will be raised for changing structures.
4) Now F-404 engine do not need to push as hard to maintain lift to drag ratio. Ergo changing the wing size.
5) Weight saved too much. Ergo demands will be raised to tweek the FBW.
6) Now that the weight decrease has been achieved, the FBW is fixed and the wing reduced. There is space now for making the whole thing more F-16sqe. So now lets increase fuel capacity by again changing the internal layout and may be inventing a conformal tank for it.
7) But weight fuel is lesser weight-to-volume and also sloshes around and the confromals change the aerodynamics, so now again tweek the FBW and put some ballast, back into new places.
8) But weight new fuel lines and new ballast. So now this would begin to require changing the arrangement of LRUs.

Ok I will stop at this most holiest of numbers. Number 8. Jai Shani Maharaj.

You see this thing if not properly controlled will lead India (as a country) to another dead end.

Then there would be emergency purchases required. Mmmm.... Sounds familiar .

Now set up internet forums where people will tell us how the IAF leadership has just saved the nation from dire consequences of having just 15 squadrons in flying condition.

Then off course we will be told how some other country has offered security assistance and how our ass is being saved while we remain ever-ungrateful bunch of morons.

Come on, you have heard this often enough by now.

See till ~200 kg reduction that you needed for the AESA+EW it made sense. Then somebody got excited at the prospects and mentioned 400 kg. Then somebody else got even more excited and offered earth shaking ideas for 700 kg. Then the big daddy nobel-worthy idea is given to take it all to 1000 kg reduction. And some of us Indians are now not being patriotic enough to have this bestest of product flying.

Why not just have all this done on LCA Mk-2? Why scrap the LCA Mk-2? How is all this not achievable in LCA Mk-2?

Or

Is somebody who has just learnt flying by associating with the LCA Mk-2 just feeding crap into the LCA Mk-1 capability sets by using LCA Mk-1A as a deflection point.

I just hope this LCA Mk-1A is either produced fast or dropped fast.

 

[jackprince]

He personally declared a set time limit? Nah, he was ordered. Media doesn't create a time limit for Parikarr to shut his mouth. His boss tells told him to zip his lip for six months because he was making life hell for the administration with his contradictory statements.

Nobody 'declared' any set time limit? Where did you get that? In media? Proves my point. He was not making any contradictory statement. Give example when you allege something like that.

MoD doesn't create the list, the services do. MoD takes the list to get it financed and this is where he fails, on purpose I suspect.

Yes, MoD doesn't prepare the list. DOES. NOT. I know it and told you before again and again. So what is the point? Services do prepare the list, but MoD decides the viability. Services don't think of the fiscal impact of their wants, MoD cannot but look into the fiscal impact. There's a reason for MoD to exist, and that is NOT for rubber stamping Services' wishlist.

The same IAF which changed goalposts so many times for LCA, that it is difficult to even count. Their wants have been changing from the very beginning of the LCA project, with new additions and demands - and that in itself is unprecedented and the MoD should have force-fed LCA to IAF much much ago for the sake of our own homegrown technology to build.

The same IAF also apparently could not decide whether they want a single engine light fighter or twin-engine medium weight fighter for their multi-role combat aircraft project.

So, MoD simply cannot trust IAF's judgement when it comes with a Christmas list.

As long as China doesn't attack... you would be right.

So, you think 4 sqdrns. of Rafale will be able to protect our skies, when 12-16 sqdrns. of LCA cannot do? Why, will the Rafales multiply on a threat scenario? Do you even have any idea how long our borders are?

You can defund HAL/DRDO and sell it to the private sector... problem solved.

That would be great for you foreign MNC guys, won't it? You get rid off the only Indian contender which has the proper know how, and you will be able to acquire that through 49% FDI route in watered down price? Dream on. No Govt. will have that much of courage.

Or, have you forgotten, HAL is building Dhruva, Rudra, LCH, LUH, Rustam... oh, no, wait! You want those projects to be shelved too. Yes, how else India be able to bleed more money?!!!!

IAF knew a decade ago it wanted Rafale, it was politics and babu that delay. Parikarr is just the latest cog in the wheel of modernisation.

Yes, you again prove me right. IAF knew, or some people with additional interest knew that they wanted Indian govt. pay for purchasing Rafale. So, there has been a lobby working in IAF in favour of Rafale or rather Dassault?

Btw, Parrikar is not the latest cog in the wheel, but watching him working, it appears that he is the Rim of the wheel of modernisation.

They couldn't induct LCA, it fails 53 safety and operational requirements today. Back then it failed hundreds.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2015/05/cag-report-overlooks-tejas-lcas-many.html
Now, suddenly your earlier arguments of professional judgement went out of the lock, and you bring in findings of auditors, who certainly were neither pilots or scientists.

It cannot in good conscience be inducted when it was designed for a different age where tactical fighters rise from its base and defend a very small area. IAF has to think more strategically when talking about China.

LCA might have been intended for a different era, but it has matured with time and can easily take over business of the modern day warfare duties. IAF doesn't need to think strategically, unless the GoI asks for it. Its primary role is and will remain for foreseeable future to defend our skies - and that can be done with healthy dose of SAM batteries, which btw IAF wouldn't be able to afford if it buys Rafale in large nos., and spread out airbases where greater no. of modern fighters can operate from and respond quickly.

We don't have any interest at bombing in Mali or Somalia. If that is needed, Su-30MKIs or IN's Mig-29K can do the job well enough. Infact MKIs has more legs and more useful load than Rafale.

IDK what lie you are referring to, but the Holland government was lied to by Modi when he agreed to 30% offsets and then demand 50%.

Oh, the lies of Rafale where it outbid EFT being the L1. In what world a fighter's price increase almost double in 2 years, unless by fraud? Btw, MMRCA project was always for 50% offset and full TOT. May be you'd like to check facts? To much lying makes people like that, they start believing their own lies.

 

[cannonfodder]

Yeah really hope Parrikar has taken extensive briefing on changes HAL's proposing.

I hate last minute code changes unless they are absolutely necessary...

@Yumdoot , anyways wanted to know how much retesting is required in your opinion...?
@jackprince, between one lobbyist is right here......

One of the links you provide has this:


You see this is extensive changes to the engine.

Now try thinking what would happen to LCA Mk-1 if the same approach is taken with the LCA Mk-1A.

1) Reduce Landing gear weight
2) Reduce corresponding ballast
3) Now the structure does not need to support say 400 kg weight. Ergo demands will be raised for changing structures.
4) Now F-404 engine do not need to push as hard to maintain lift to drag ratio. Ergo changing the wing size.
5) Weight saved too much. Ergo demands will be raised to tweek the FBW.
6) Now that the weight decrease has been achieved, the FBW is fixed and the wing reduced. There is space now for making the whole thing more F-16sqe. So now lets increase fuel capacity by again changing the internal layout and may be inventing a conformal tank for it.
7) But weight fuel is lesser weight-to-volume and also sloshes around and the confromals change the aerodynamics, so now again tweek the FBW and put some ballast, back into new places.
8) But weight new fuel lines and new ballast. So now this would begin to require changing the arrangement of LRUs.

Ok I will stop at this most holiest of numbers. Number 8. Jai Shani Maharaj.

You see this thing if not properly controlled will lead India (as a country) to another dead end.

Then there would be emergency purchases required. Mmmm.... Sounds familiar .

Now set up internet forums where people will tell us how the IAF leadership has just saved the nation from dire consequences of having just 15 squadrons in flying condition.

Then off course we will be told how some other country has offered security assistance and how our ass is being saved while we remain ever-ungrateful bunch of morons.

Come on, you have heard this often enough by now.

See till ~200 kg reduction that you needed for the AESA+EW it made sense. Then somebody got excited at the prospects and mentioned 400 kg. Then somebody else got even more excited and offered earth shaking ideas for 700 kg. Then the big daddy nobel-worthy idea is given to take it all to 1000 kg reduction. And some of us Indians are now not being patriotic enough to have this bestest of product flying.

Why not just have all this done on LCA Mk-2? Why scrap the LCA Mk-2? How is all this not achievable in LCA Mk-2?

Or

Is somebody who has just learnt flying by associating with the LCA Mk-2 just feeding crap into the LCA Mk-1 capability sets by using LCA Mk-1A as a deflection point.

I just hope this LCA Mk-1A is either produced fast or dropped fast.

 

[jackprince]

Yeah really hope Parrikar has taken extensive briefing on changes HAL's proposing.

I hate last minute code changes unless they are absolutely necessary...

@Yumdoot , anyways wanted to know how much retesting is required in your opinion...?
@jackprince, between one lobbyist is right here......

Oh, @Yumdoot definitely is not a lobbyist. Just as many other members in the forum are not. HAL simply doesn't have a stellar performance record, and it has failed to show in public how many times it has been hamstrung in LCA projects. The fight of public perception for HAL is difficult to win against IAF, as naturally people tend to favour IAF more because it is one of the services, just as the IA is favoured despite having ridiculous wrong judgement call in procurement policies.

One has to learn the story and timeline of LCA project, how underfunded it has always been and how much constraints it has faced over the years because of IAF's outright hostility to the project, to get the full picture.

 

[Jagdish58]

When LCA tag will be dropped & HF designation will be given??

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2010/11/lca-to-lose-lca-tag-in-february-2011.html

 

[Yumdoot]

Oh, @Yumdoot definitely is not a lobbyist.

Mucho honoured.

But I must admit, I am partial towards Russian stuff. But only after India First.

On balance, I will never end up the guy who support India First only after his favourite team is out of contention. Or when the intent is to deny the disfavoured team a opportunity to cooperate/supply stuff.

@gpawar, I have no view right now. In any case I am not an engineer. But if the LCA Mk-1A was the first off modification intended for AESA + Integrated Self Protection Jammer then I guess 1 year or so would have sufficed. In that case I believe even the 40 odd LCA Mk-1 could have been retro-fitted. But with, whats getting suggested, its beginning to sounding uncannily similar to the scenario we already had.

Let us see what budget is given to HAL for all this. Let us see who pays MOD or IAF or HAL?

 

[cannonfodder]

Mucho honoured.

But I must admit, I am partial towards Russian stuff. But only after India First.

On balance, I will never end up the guy who support India First only after his favourite team is out of contention. Or when the intent is to deny the disfavoured team a opportunity to cooperate/supply stuff.

@gpawar, I have no view right now. In any case I am not an engineer. But if the LCA Mk-1A was the first off modification intended for AESA + Integrated Self Protection Jammer then I guess 1 year or so would have sufficed. In that case I believe even the 40 odd LCA Mk-1 could have been retro-fitted. But with, whats getting suggested, its beginning to sounding uncannily similar to the scenario we already had.

Let us see what budget is given to HAL for all this. Let us see who pays MOD or IAF or HAL? [emoji317]

I was hinting at armandrep2 not yumdoot as lobbyist[emoji1] [emoji1]

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

 

[kstriya]

I think ADA/HAL should come with a publication to support the weight reduction logic to shut up the big phoren ass mouth. A timeline with what technological advancement and research took place for this development will clear lot of doubts.

 

[Jagdish58]

SIMPLE BUT TO THE POINT

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/10/the-lca-tejas-needs-to-see-squadron.html
The LCA Tejas needs to see squadron service now. Goalposts, mission objectives, time-lines, costs and specifications have, over 32 years, melded into an amorphous, self-defeating paradox. One that has served no national interest, certainly not that of the Indian Air Force.

Let's be clear. This cannot be about forcing the Indian Air Force to accept a fighter plane. A Reuters report that's been reproduced across media today describes the LCA as obsolete and a potential burden on a reluctant IAF. Several others quote anonymous sources or retired officers as banging their fists on their tables and saying the Tejas is one big chunky albatross the air force needs least. One that will forever stall its planning and acquisition impetus.

Arguments, including several here on Livefist, over the years have now also melded together into one big exasperation. Nose cones. Radar efficiency. The ability to deploy smart weapons. Sustained turn rate. Hot and high operations after a cold soak. Manoeuverability at low altitude. Sea-level operations. Demonstration of air combat weapons. The lack of a mature primary sensor. The maintenance nightmare. The fact that crew will need a chisel and many hours to open any panel of the platform to find out what's wrong. Low power. You've heard it all.

The truth is, there have been too many lines in the sand. And not one of those has been respected. Not by the makers of the aircraft. And not by the Indian Air Force. A chronic lack of mutual trust between the IAF and the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) on the one hand, and a laughably hostile status quo between the IAF and Hindustan Aeronautics on the other has bedeviled even basic convergence on delivery timelines, specifications and targets. Hostilities and egos, fuelled by the pulls and pressures of an overbearing acquisition impulse pegged on the arithmetics of sanctioned strength and squadron numbers. Hostilities that have allowed a most unfortunate regime of charges and counter-charges that have achieved only two things: (a) compelled an already troubled program to flounder further, and (b) kept the makers and customer from acknowledging genuine steps of progress towards a ready and usable project. This trust deficit and sneering incredulity needs to be a case study in indigenous project management going forward, for it has never been more manifest than in Project Tejas.

As I said, the exasperations around the LCA have tossed and turned for so long in a cauldron of innumerable pressures, that they appear practically ambiguous now. Few arguments both for and against the LCA Tejas arrive with any of the muscle they did earlier. Circumstances have changed. The IAF is a much more dynamic service in crucial ways. India's military industrial complex is itself in a period of flux that will hopefully see monopolistic development and production swept away to make way for competitive technology advances that involve the private sector. The possibilities are enormous.

Since no prescription on defence really involves a prescription, I'll end with a real one: set one final date for the induction of the LCA Tejas. Induct the Tejas on that date, no matter what has or hasn't been achieved by that date as stipulated in the last discussions on record. Roll out squadron service. Continue testing alongside squadron service (not uncommon for new platforms), as had been the original plan before goalposts were shifted once again. Get the Tejas to stretch its legs regularly at exercises. Send it out to the island bases on detachment to see if it's the workhorse it was built to be. Retrofit all new developments and additions, including IFR capabilities.

What about the air force? Is a sub-optimal platform being foisted on it? Truthfully, only squadron service will ever really tell. Is a reluctant air force being forced to accept an obsolete platform? Not really. The IAF has accounted for the LCA Tejas in its orbat, and has now expanded that requirement based on a matrix of pressures that includes, significantly, the lack of an alternative, seeing sense in moving forward on a platform the IAF is undeniably invested in and, finally, the realisation that the Tejas could conceivably be a platform far superior than its trodden-on image.

That's the key. Get it out into air force stations. That isn't the kind of fatalistic/idealistic prescription it sounds like. Several aircraft that have been mired in development hell have blossomed upon breathing squadron air.

Former IAF chief Srinvasapuram Krishnaswamy once said to me in an interview days before he retired, "I feel we should simply induct the Tejas. Once it is in service, a sense of ownership will come. And we can progressively improve it jointly along with the developers. The aircraft needs to get out of test and into squadrons. That is the only solution."

That was 11 years ago.