HAL Advanced Light Helicopter Dhruv

Yumdoot

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@abingdonboy

I am sorry if the Ajai Shukla reference and his views on dimensions seemed like a wrongful conflation to you. Overall I believe Shukla ji too, is merely working for the good of India, to the limits of his capacity. I just hope his capacity increases. People just do what they think is in the best interest of they countries. Its just that the information itself is not properly made available to everybody.


Re. NLUH:

ALH has no difficulty meeting either the NLUH requirement nor does it lag in the ASW role. That is why there has always been heavy criticism of it :p. ALH is simply too good.

The NLUH-RFP says nothing about the weight restrictions. And IIRC, the NLUH-RFP is released under the Buy & Make India category.

Even if it did, then any competition that is willing to consider a Panther in LUH category, cannot seriously keep the ALH out. ALH weighs about 122 kgs more than Panther (empty weight basis).

And helo stationing requirements with respect to weight are not tight for the Shipboard use as you claim. Here is a link showing a vessel of 1200 tonne full load displacement carrying helo with an empty weight of 2960 kg. The vessel is lighter than the lightest helo capable vessel (Khukri Class at 1350 tonne) that Indian Navy has – also a lesser beam. And needless to add the empty weight of that helo (Bell Agusta AB212-ASW) is about 18%-20% higher than that of ALH.

http://www.helis.com/database/sys/778_Serviola_class/


Hope that convinces you that ALH is not heavy for the NLUH category.


Re. ASW category:

I agree the heavier helos are good for bigger ships and aircraft carriers and I don’t rue the fact that Indian Navy bought as many of them as they have ordered. But even for that category the NH-90 should have been taken because of its much better sensor capabilities. After all, an ASW asset is primarily its sensors. S-70B seems to be a political buy to say thank you for the so called life saving benefits that Indian has enjoyed on account of 123 accord.

Anyhow even here the ALH-ASW is actually better than both the heavier types, from the overall perspective. Because while the NH-90 and S-70B can only be used from the heavier ships the landing of these heavier ASW platforms at the far end of the operating area will not necessarily get an equally big ship. The so called ideal S-70B may well find itself under-utilized, because the only ship available near the outer limit of its range is a Khukri class vessel :D. Had it been an ALH-ASW it would easily have landed on the Khukri class and replenished and returned to duty in double fast time.

Mostly the requirements are just visions as to the use of the proposed asset. I usually tend to believe in the methods instead of requirements. With methods the weakest equipped have repeatedly beaten bigger foes with well recognized and well met requirements (aka vision).

Now once you get the fun in all these range-calculations you will be forced to admit that the only way to employ an S-70B is to keep it nearer to the bigger vessels it is based out of, say 75 NM max. And nearer that range again the ALH-ASW has advantage because it can take all the sensors and weapons that S-70B can for as long as an ASW helo actually needs to be on station considering the available resources.

If you state that –
“ALH is simply too small to house all of the high-end ASW electronics AND to ahve highendurance”
.
It only means you have never gotten round to calculating the weights of different payload combinations possible for given mission requirements considering different landing platforms available. The X-Band radar will be around 100 kg, the dunking Sonar around 400 kg, the sonobuoys each will weigh between 9-15 kg (say 400 kg for 25 of these) and the TAL torpedo each at 250 kg (total 500 kg for 2). The ALH still has space for 1000 kg of fuel if you wish. Though the same fuel may not be needed at all, if you really try to figure out how at the very best an ASW helo can be used. The ASW helos cannot realistically operate, independent of the landing platforms available in a given sector. And in this the ALH will always have the upper hand because of its smaller size. BTW ALH has same installed power as a Sea King with much better disc loading. So that will power up the nearly the same payload if not more. And Sea King is not small. ALH merely packages it all better.

The only reason ‘world navies’ are using heavier helos for ASW is because only of the money power and not because there is any real use for it. The same as F-35 JSF.

BTW a few moneyed navies do not constitute the world’s navies. The real world’s navies are still using the lighter helos for ASW missions.

Anyhow its water under the bridge now that the Indian Navy has already ordered the lousy S-70B only to say thank you to world’s biggest Protection Racketeer for the 123 agreement.

But yes the Indian Navy as an institution is still very much into indigenous capabilities and which is why they have repeatedly expressed interest in the ALH-ASW both by words and deeds. I also agree that HAL has not been able to manage its priorities strategically. HAL could have thought of the segmented blades earlier. HAL could have preempted the vibration issues, entirely. HAL could have offered the pricing better. The whole ASW version could have come earlier even if with foreign sensors (to be later replaced). HAL could insist in the negotiations, or at least could have leaked news to create pressure, that the only version they will supply to the Indian Navy will be the segmented blade version (I wonder if they have).

But in any case the Indian Navy will never be able to command the kind of monetary resources it needs for the vast requirements it actually has to meet. Which will force it to rely on the ALH-ASW, as and when it is made properly available.

Even more importantly no politico in MOD/PMO (not even a laggard like Anthony/MMS) would like to rely on the foreign suppliers for the real fight category. Its simply too risky in political terms.

And do not count the sundry RFIs and RFPs as anything special. It is only a professional’s job to be abreast of the latest which is something to be encouraged. Deals/proposals have been canceled at much-much later stages. The IMRH you had mentioned was only a HAL proposal and that itself is a clear indication that there are gears within gears within gears. Off course the IMRH should have been started by now. That is why I also mentioned the 3-engined variant of Dhruv. But its not (and that is an input worth archiving for later use).
 
Last edited:

abingdonboy

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@abingdonboy

I am sorry if the Ajai Shukla reference and his views on dimensions seemed like a wrongful conflation to you. Overall I believe Shukla ji too, is merely working for the good of India, to the limits of his capacity. I just hope his capacity increases. People just do what they think is in the best interest of they countries. Its just that the information itself is not properly made available to everybody.


Re. NLUH:

ALH has no difficulty meeting either the NLUH requirement nor does it lag in the ASW role. That is why there has always been heavy criticism of it :p. ALH is simply too good.

The NLUH-RFP says nothing about the weight restrictions. And IIRC, the NLUH-RFP is released under the Buy & Make India category.

Even if it did, then any competition that is willing to consider a Panther in LUH category, cannot seriously keep the ALH out. ALH weighs about 122 kgs more than Panther (empty weight basis).

And helo stationing requirements with respect to weight are not tight for the Shipboard use as you claim. Here is a link showing a vessel of 1200 tonne full load displacement carrying helo with an empty weight of 2960 kg. The vessel is lighter than the lightest helo capable vessel (Khukri Class at 1350 tonne) that Indian Navy has – also a lesser beam. And needless to add the empty weight of that helo (Bell Agusta AB212-ASW) is about 18%-20% higher than that of ALH.

http://www.helis.com/database/sys/778_Serviola_class/


Hope that convinces you that ALH is not heavy for the NLUH category.


Re. ASW category:

I agree the heavier helos are good for bigger ships and aircraft carriers and I don’t rue the fact that Indian Navy bought as many of them as they have ordered. But even for that category the NH-90 should have been taken because of its much better sensor capabilities. After all, an ASW asset is primarily its sensors. S-70B seems to be a political buy to say thank you for the so called life saving benefits that Indian has enjoyed on account of 123 accord.

Anyhow even here the ALH-ASW is actually better than both the heavier types, from the overall perspective. Because while the NH-90 and S-70B can only be used from the heavier ships the landing of these heavier ASW platforms at the far end of the operating area will not necessarily get an equally big ship. The so called ideal S-70B may well find itself under-utilized, because the only ship available near the outer limit of its range is a Khukri class vessel :D. Had it been an ALH-ASW it would easily have landed on the Khukri class and replenished and returned to duty in double fast time.

Mostly the requirements are just visions as to the use of the proposed asset. I usually tend to believe in the methods instead of requirements. With methods the weakest equipped have repeatedly beaten bigger foes with well recognized and well met requirements (aka vision).

Now once you get the fun in all these range-calculations you will be forced to admit that the only way to employ an S-70B is to keep it nearer to the bigger vessels it is based out of, say 75 NM max. And nearer that range again the ALH-ASW has advantage because it can take all the sensors and weapons that S-70B can for as long as an ASW helo actually needs to be on station considering the available resources.

If you state that – .
It only means you have never gotten round to calculating the weights of different payload combinations possible for given mission requirements considering different landing platforms available. The X-Band radar will be around 100 kg, the dunking Sonar around 400 kg, the sonobuoys each will weigh between 9-15 kg (say 400 kg for 25 of these) and the TAL torpedo each at 250 kg (total 500 kg for 2). The ALH still has space for 1000 kg of fuel if you wish. Though the same fuel may not be needed at all, if you really try to figure out how at the very best an ASW helo can be used. The ASW helos cannot realistically operate, independent of the landing platforms available in a given sector. And in this the ALH will always have the upper hand because of its smaller size. BTW ALH has same installed power as a Sea King with much better disc loading. So that will power up the nearly the same payload if not more. And Sea King is not small. ALH merely packages it all better.

The only reason ‘world navies’ are using heavier helos for ASW is because only of the money power and not because there is any real use for it. The same as F-35 JSF.

BTW a few moneyed navies do not constitute the world’s navies. The real world’s navies are still using the lighter helos for ASW missions.

Anyhow its water under the bridge now that the Indian Navy has already ordered the lousy S-70B only to say thank you to world’s biggest Protection Racketeer for the 123 agreement.

But yes the Indian Navy as an institution is still very much into indigenous capabilities and which is why they have repeatedly expressed interest in the ALH-ASW both by words and deeds. I also agree that HAL has not been able to manage its priorities strategically. HAL could have thought of the segmented blades earlier. HAL could have preempted the vibration issues, entirely. HAL could have offered the pricing better. The whole ASW version could have come earlier even if with foreign sensors (to be later replaced). HAL could insist in the negotiations, or at least could have leaked news to create pressure, that the only version they will supply to the Indian Navy will be the segmented blade version (I wonder if they have).

But in any case the Indian Navy will never be able to command the kind of monetary resources it needs for the vast requirements it actually has to meet. Which will force it to rely on the ALH-ASW, as and when it is made properly available.

Even more importantly no politico in MOD/PMO (not even a laggard like Anthony/MMS) would like to rely on the foreign suppliers for the real fight category. Its simply too risky in political terms.

And do not count the sundry RFIs and RFPs as anything special. It is only a professional’s job to be abreast of the latest which is something to be encouraged. Deals/proposals have been canceled at much-much later stages. The IMRH you had mentioned was only a HAL proposal and that itself is a clear indication that there are gears within gears within gears. Off course the IMRH should have been started by now. That is why I also mentioned the 3-engined variant of Dhruv. But its not (and that is an input worth archiving for later use).
Fair enough bro, let's see how these things play out. I am pretty confident that what I have said will come to be, the ALH will not serve in the ASW or integral NLUH role.

We can only wait now.
 

kstriya

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@abingdonboy

I am sorry if the Ajai Shukla reference and his views on dimensions seemed like a wrongful conflation to you. Overall I believe Shukla ji too, is merely working for the good of India, to the limits of his capacity. I just hope his capacity increases. People just do what they think is in the best interest of they countries. Its just that the information itself is not properly made available to everybody.


Re. NLUH:

ALH has no difficulty meeting either the NLUH requirement nor does it lag in the ASW role. That is why there has always been heavy criticism of it :p. ALH is simply too good.

The NLUH-RFP says nothing about the weight restrictions. And IIRC, the NLUH-RFP is released under the Buy & Make India category.

Even if it did, then any competition that is willing to consider a Panther in LUH category, cannot seriously keep the ALH out. ALH weighs about 122 kgs more than Panther (empty weight basis).

And helo stationing requirements with respect to weight are not tight for the Shipboard use as you claim. Here is a link showing a vessel of 1200 tonne full load displacement carrying helo with an empty weight of 2960 kg. The vessel is lighter than the lightest helo capable vessel (Khukri Class at 1350 tonne) that Indian Navy has – also a lesser beam. And needless to add the empty weight of that helo (Bell Agusta AB212-ASW) is about 18%-20% higher than that of ALH.

http://www.helis.com/database/sys/778_Serviola_class/


Hope that convinces you that ALH is not heavy for the NLUH category.


Re. ASW category:

I agree the heavier helos are good for bigger ships and aircraft carriers and I don’t rue the fact that Indian Navy bought as many of them as they have ordered. But even for that category the NH-90 should have been taken because of its much better sensor capabilities. After all, an ASW asset is primarily its sensors. S-70B seems to be a political buy to say thank you for the so called life saving benefits that Indian has enjoyed on account of 123 accord.

Anyhow even here the ALH-ASW is actually better than both the heavier types, from the overall perspective. Because while the NH-90 and S-70B can only be used from the heavier ships the landing of these heavier ASW platforms at the far end of the operating area will not necessarily get an equally big ship. The so called ideal S-70B may well find itself under-utilized, because the only ship available near the outer limit of its range is a Khukri class vessel :D. Had it been an ALH-ASW it would easily have landed on the Khukri class and replenished and returned to duty in double fast time.

Mostly the requirements are just visions as to the use of the proposed asset. I usually tend to believe in the methods instead of requirements. With methods the weakest equipped have repeatedly beaten bigger foes with well recognized and well met requirements (aka vision).

Now once you get the fun in all these range-calculations you will be forced to admit that the only way to employ an S-70B is to keep it nearer to the bigger vessels it is based out of, say 75 NM max. And nearer that range again the ALH-ASW has advantage because it can take all the sensors and weapons that S-70B can for as long as an ASW helo actually needs to be on station considering the available resources.

If you state that – .
It only means you have never gotten round to calculating the weights of different payload combinations possible for given mission requirements considering different landing platforms available. The X-Band radar will be around 100 kg, the dunking Sonar around 400 kg, the sonobuoys each will weigh between 9-15 kg (say 400 kg for 25 of these) and the TAL torpedo each at 250 kg (total 500 kg for 2). The ALH still has space for 1000 kg of fuel if you wish. Though the same fuel may not be needed at all, if you really try to figure out how at the very best an ASW helo can be used. The ASW helos cannot realistically operate, independent of the landing platforms available in a given sector. And in this the ALH will always have the upper hand because of its smaller size. BTW ALH has same installed power as a Sea King with much better disc loading. So that will power up the nearly the same payload if not more. And Sea King is not small. ALH merely packages it all better.

The only reason ‘world navies’ are using heavier helos for ASW is because only of the money power and not because there is any real use for it. The same as F-35 JSF.

BTW a few moneyed navies do not constitute the world’s navies. The real world’s navies are still using the lighter helos for ASW missions.

Anyhow its water under the bridge now that the Indian Navy has already ordered the lousy S-70B only to say thank you to world’s biggest Protection Racketeer for the 123 agreement.

But yes the Indian Navy as an institution is still very much into indigenous capabilities and which is why they have repeatedly expressed interest in the ALH-ASW both by words and deeds. I also agree that HAL has not been able to manage its priorities strategically. HAL could have thought of the segmented blades earlier. HAL could have preempted the vibration issues, entirely. HAL could have offered the pricing better. The whole ASW version could have come earlier even if with foreign sensors (to be later replaced). HAL could insist in the negotiations, or at least could have leaked news to create pressure, that the only version they will supply to the Indian Navy will be the segmented blade version (I wonder if they have).

But in any case the Indian Navy will never be able to command the kind of monetary resources it needs for the vast requirements it actually has to meet. Which will force it to rely on the ALH-ASW, as and when it is made properly available.

Even more importantly no politico in MOD/PMO (not even a laggard like Anthony/MMS) would like to rely on the foreign suppliers for the real fight category. Its simply too risky in political terms.

And do not count the sundry RFIs and RFPs as anything special. It is only a professional’s job to be abreast of the latest which is something to be encouraged. Deals/proposals have been canceled at much-much later stages. The IMRH you had mentioned was only a HAL proposal and that itself is a clear indication that there are gears within gears within gears. Off course the IMRH should have been started by now. That is why I also mentioned the 3-engined variant of Dhruv. But its not (and that is an input worth archiving for later use).
With the ALH-ASW capabilities each helicopter landing ship in Indian navy can be capable of anti submarine warfare or is it that the ship needs some distinguished ASW capabilities to operate a ASW helicopter?
 

abingdonboy

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With the ALH-ASW capabilities each helicopter landing ship in Indian navy can be capable of anti submarine warfare or is it that the ship needs some distinguished ASW capabilities to operate a ASW helicopter?
ASW assets act as self-contained assets/sensors so to undertake ASW the ship doesn't need any ASW equipment of its own. However it will require data links to compute the information the helo is sending back and to feed that into their combat picture.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Presently only Kamorta and Kora class of Indian Navy carry MATCH helicopters with torpedoes for ASW role, Dhruv presently if used will be used in combo, Dhruvs are certified to carry torpedoes and will be used only from carrier Vikramaditya as projected in 2014 ..







With the ALH-ASW capabilities each helicopter landing ship in Indian navy can be capable of anti submarine warfare or is it that the ship needs some distinguished ASW capabilities to operate a ASW helicopter?
 

kstriya

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HAL should come up with modularity with the ALH platform like Kamov, ALH can be used as a SAR or ASW navy should be able to change the payload as per mission this will make every possible vessel which can carry a ALH do multiple missions including ASW and that's gonna be cheap really cost effective.
 

Indx TechStyle

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India's Dhruv Helicopter Ferried Troops For 'Surgical Strike' Inside PoK

An Indian Army Aviation Corps Dhruv Helicopter
Indian troops were ferried into the Pakistan occupied Kashmir territory for ‘surgical strike’ by ALH Dhruv choppers to destroy seven terror launch pads.
This is the first time that the home-grown Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) has been used in an offensive operation.
India conducted "surgical strikes" across the Line of Control (LoC) in Jammu and Kashmir on terrorist hideouts in Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir (PoK) and killed several terrorists, the Army's Director General of Military Operations (DGMO) Lt General Ranbir Singh said today.
Singh said, the strikes were launched on Wednesday night based on "very specific and credible information that some terrorist units had positioned themselves to infiltrate" into India.
The surgical strikes were recorded on cameras with drones also recording footage. Two Indian soldiers were injured from landmines during the surgical strikes, the Army said. It also said it had no immediate plans of another such operation for now.
The operation lasted from 12.30 am to 4.30 am, with the location being 500 metres to 2 km from the LoC on the Pakistani side, India Today reported quoting unnamed sources in the Indian Army as saying.
At least two army men were killed in the 'massive' retaliation by the Indian Army to the unprovked firing by Indian troops over the Line of Control in Jammu and Kashmir. Exchange of fire which started at 0230 hrs after midnight continued till 0800 hrs, Pakistani Inter-Services Public Relations said in a statement.
The Indian Army has started evacuating villages in Pathankot and Attari sector as a pre-emptive measure.
 

tejas warrior

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India's Dhruv Helicopter Ferried Troops For 'Surgical Strike' Inside PoK
Indian troops were ferried into the Pakistan occupied Kashmir territory for ‘surgical strike’ by ALH Dhruv choppers to destroy seven terror launch pads.
This is the first time that the home-grown Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) has been used in an offensive operation.
Let the Rudra arrive to the party !! It will be more deadly than Dhruv in these kind of operation.

Rudra backed by LCH.

At the end, an Indian product was used after so many expensive purchases.
 

kr9

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Let the Rudra arrive to the party !! It will be more deadly than Dhruv in these kind of operation.

At the end, an Indian product was used after so many expensive purchases.
If we had used Rudra, we could have shredded the Pakistani troops who came in trucks and then retreated.
Hopefully.....next time.
 

AbRaj

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Let the Rudra arrive to the party !! It will be more deadly than Dhruv in these kind of operation.

Rudra backed by LCH.

At the end, an Indian product was used after so many expensive purchases.
As per my knowledge Rudra was used in this operation, in case case......
 

Shashwat

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Any info on fold able rotors?

Thought it had manual foldable rotors? Has they inducted automatic f.rotors?
 

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