Govt set to clear 40,000-strong force along China border

Ray

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What is the strength of a mountain division of IA. Also, is it same for all the mountain divisions?
My figures would be outdated, but then it was in the region of 15,300 personnel without attachments.
 
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DivineHeretic

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I am thinking in quite the opposite way.

Firstly, if we move 40,000 troops to the India-Tibet-Bhutan tri-junction, it will increase border tensions. On the other hand, we cannot keep the troops down in the plains. We must keep the troops in the high altitude regions, infrastructure or not infrastructure, and that will not only keep the soldiers acclimatized, but also give them practice to keep supply lines open when there is no infrastructure. This practice will prove invaluable in case of war.

Moreover, what you are saying is a 'flat region' is quite the opposite. You should look at Google Earth and see it for yourself. Armoured assault in Arunachal Area is a no no. CAS has its difficulties, but is not impossible to master with practice. In case of another war, it will have to be fought with troops that are used to living in the woods for weeks without supply or quick access to infrastructure.

You should see the concept behind training the CRPF Cobra units - they train by doing extreme hard work. They are trained to work as autonomous units, without being detected, and without getting supplies for up to 10-11 days. See the video here: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/internal-security/51237-make-naxals-our-own-assets.html (Opening Post)
You are right about the acclamatisation factor. Currently, it takes from 2 weeks to as much as 4 to acclamatise the troops to the higher altitude. But DRDO has been saying that they are researching ways of bringing this down to 5 days.

When I said flat area fit for armoured thrust, I did not mean the Arunachal Pradesh region. The Sikkim China border (the finger area) is one of the vey few regions where the IA can launch an armored thrust, and also has tactical advantage. Infact there is already a regiment of T-72 based there, confirming my viewpoint.
The IA wouldn't place tanks there if the terrain was unfit fot armored thrusts.

Indian tanks move in Sikkim after Chinese activities : Headlines Today Top Stories, News - India Today
T-72 tanks moved to remote Sikkim area after China tests Indian defences

The concept of COBRA ops is very different to that of regular armies fighting assault/defence operations. These are high intensity operarions and consist of brigade or larger number of troops. Without sustained support or supplies, these formations will be decimated, regardless of how skilled they are. Mixing this with anti Naxal ops will not be prudent, given the size and capability of the enemy.
 

DivineHeretic

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Link Please :

You might have missed some !!
The data is from Wikipedia, but the citations checked out. You can check the Bharat Rakshak site as well.

And I did miss some, I guess. I have not included the mountain brigades or the artillery brigades attached to these muntain brigades. And if you see the ORBAT of the IA, there are several divisions in the Northern Command listed as infantry divisions, but by the nature of their deployment and the location of their deployment, they, for all practical purposes are functioning as a mountain division.

Of course,I'd be glad to be corrected.
 

DivineHeretic

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Can you please specify which area in Arunachal is not fit for operations of a mountain strike corps ?
To be hoest,as of now, nearly the whole of AP is unsuitable for operations of strike corps.

The basic function of a strike corps is to strike hard and strike deep. For this the IA uses the relative local superiority in numbers amd firepower, and prefers areas where it has tactical advantage and a good supply support.

The IA has none of these advantages in AP. The enormous superiority of the Chinese infrastructure allows China to react very fast to any thrust by the IA, almost too fast. Then there is the disadvantage of a very difficult terrain which reduces the speed of the assault, down to a crawl. Strike corps will depend on speed to capture as large territory as possible before being stopped/checked by the reinforcements.

Abd then comes the issue of logistics. It takes over 5 days to move supplies from the plains in Assam to Tawang, that too if the weather is as good as possible. Add a few showers or snowfall, and this time could increase to 2 weeks. And army Strike corps covering 40-45,000 troops will require a colossal supply line over a single lane road.
Also other than the strike corps, there are several other divisions that too will require supplies.

And if the divisions are based in Panagarh or even in North Bengal, they will take over a week to assemble on the frontline, assuming the mobilisation goes smoothly. (and has mjot airlift to move assets). By that time the PLA( who will no doubt be the agressors) will have pushed in enough troops to deny strike corps any speedy intrusion.
 

Iamanidiot

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Why cannot the army improve infra in NE in the first place for the better
 

DivineHeretic

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Why cannot the army improve infra in NE in the first place for the better
The work is going on, but it is notoriously slow for a variety of reasons.

The expansion, widening,improving of the major roads (the national and state highways) are proceeding very slowly. The roads cannot be kept closed as they are the only ones connecting a region and are far too important to be closed off for workThe BRO has to conduct operations while the road is kept open, slowing down the work to a crawl, then you have the fast changing, unpredictable weather in the areas closer to the frontiers. Work is frequently halted due to bad weather.

Finally the work can only be undrpertaken during the intermediate months seperating winter and monsoon, a small window. This is why work progress is slipping from the given deadline. Of course, by 2020, when most of the major infrastructure comes online, the other developments will pick up pace too.
 

pmaitra

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You are right about the acclamatisation factor. Currently, it takes from 2 weeks to as much as 4 to acclamatise the troops to the higher altitude. But DRDO has been saying that they are researching ways of bringing this down to 5 days.
Well, let DRDO deliver the results. I won't count my chicken yet.

When I said flat area fit for armoured thrust, I did not mean the Arunachal Pradesh region. The Sikkim China border (the finger area) is one of the vey few regions where the IA can launch an armored thrust, and also has tactical advantage. Infact there is already a regiment of T-72 based there, confirming my viewpoint.
Armoured thrust with T-72 into the Tibetan Plateau is next to impossible in the Eastern Sector. However, we have already used Stuart and AMX-13 tanks in J&K. Once we are on the Tibetan Plateau, we can even use Arjuns, but the biggest problem is how to get them there? We will need a massive fleet of large transporters to para-drop them onto Tibet. I think those T-72s are for defensive purposes. Ilyushin-76 cannot carry Arjuns, but can carry BMPs. We already have BMPs deployed in the Indus Valley (I mean east of Leh, near the Chushul area). I know for sure C-17 can carry Abrams, so they should be able to carry Arjun Mark I as well.

No, those tanks are not for armoured thrusts. If you want a thrust, it has to be in the western sector. From the eastern sector, the only way to get those tanks up would be to para-drop them. You cannot sneak them through the valleys.

The concept of COBRA ops is very different to that of regular armies fighting assault/defence operations. These are high intensity operarions and consist of brigade or larger number of troops. Without sustained support or supplies, these formations will be decimated, regardless of how skilled they are. Mixing this with anti Naxal ops will not be prudent, given the size and capability of the enemy.
The concept of COBRA is essentially guerrilla warfare. So was the tactic of the PLA in 1962 (attacking from the difficult areas, advancing in the night, sending out stealth interceptor squads - tactics they learnt from the Korean War).

I cannot stress this enough.

JK Galbraith, the friendliest and fairest observer India may have hoped for, found our Army populated by "tragically old-fashioned" peacetime generals full of bluster, while brave soldiers under them remained woefully ill-equipped and came to be outgunned and out-manoeuvred.
Link: China's Politics | Independent Indian: Work & Life of Dr Subroto Roy

Now, I am not saying every regiment has to do a guerrilla warfare, but we definitely need to train our men to survive in small company or platoon level without any need for supplies for 10 days. This is possible - but only with training, and CRPF Cobra battalions do get such training.
 

pmaitra

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And if the divisions are based in Panagarh or even in North Bengal, they will take over a week to assemble on the frontline, assuming the mobilisation goes smoothly. (and has mjot airlift to move assets). By that time the PLA( who will no doubt be the agressors) will have pushed in enough troops to deny strike corps any speedy intrusion.
There are plenty of airfields in North Bengal and Assam. Troop induction won't be a problem.

We did it before, and we can do it better now: Operation Chequerboard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I do agree though, we need to build roads, plenty of them.
 

Bhadra

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To be hoest,as of now, nearly the whole of AP is unsuitable for operations of strike corps.
Strike Corps for Strategic riposte or Strike Corps for Strategic Defense or for preemptive strikes are terms not unheard of. What have Indian strike Corps done so far except that ??


The basic function of a strike corps is to strike hard and strike deep. For this the IA uses the relative local superiority in numbers amd firepower, and prefers areas where it has tactical advantage and a good supply support.
How deep is deep for mountains? How hard is hard for mountains? Chinese achieved their aims in Arunachal by defeat of two brigades worth and in in Aksai chin by defeat of only one brigade?

The IA has none of these advantages in AP. The enormous superiority of the Chinese infrastructure allows China to react very fast to any thrust by the IA, almost too fast. Then there is the disadvantage of a very difficult terrain which reduces the speed of the assault, down to a crawl. Strike corps will depend on speed to capture as large territory as possible before being stopped/checked by the reinforcements.
Abd then comes the issue of logistics. It takes over 5 days to move supplies from the plains in Assam to Tawang, that too if the weather is as good as possible. Add a few showers or snowfall, and this time could increase to 2 weeks. And army Strike corps covering 40-45,000 troops will require a colossal supply line over a single lane road.
Also other than the strike corps, there are several other divisions that too will require supplies.
The same applies to the Chinese. They can muster the forces over 30 days and India can also muster up the strike Corps anywhere in Arunachal in 30 days. Logistics and infrastructure for that has to be ensured.



And if the divisions are based in Panagarh or even in North Bengal, they will take over a week to assemble on the frontline, assuming the mobilisation goes smoothly. (and has mjot airlift to move assets). By that time the PLA( who will no doubt be the agressors) will have pushed in enough troops to deny strike corps any speedy intrusion.
The PLA will take 30 days to assemble troops to launch some viable force. Before that it can pin pricks at few places for which troops in defense would suffice. It is to cater for medium level conflict situations that NE requires extra reserves as lateral move of defensive formations are not possible so far.

Strike Corps for mountains is meant to restore an adverse situation rather than capture Tibet.
 

pmaitra

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How deep is deep for mountains? How hard is hard for mountains? Chinese achieved their aims in Arunachal by defeat of two brigades worth and in in Aksai chin by defeat of only one brigade?
I must say, India's performance in the Western Sector, and in the Battle of Walong wasn't particularly bad, given that it was ill equipped and under-strength. The Lohit River became a river of death for the PLA soldiers. On the other hand, 140 men of IA who died in Chushul, died after ensuring the PLA had suffered 1000 dead, and Peking Radio even declared they had suffered their most major setback in the war.
 

DivineHeretic

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Strike Corps for Strategic riposte or Strike Corps for Strategic Defense or for preemptive strikes are terms not unheard of. What have Indian strike Corps done so far except that ??




How deep is deep for mountains? How hard is hard for mountains? Chinese achieved their aims in Arunachal by defeat of two brigades worth and in in Aksai chin by defeat of only one brigade?



The same applies to the Chinese. They can muster the forces over 30 days and India can also muster up the strike Corps anywhere in Arunachal in 30 days. Logistics and infrastructure for that has to be ensured.





The PLA will take 30 days to assemble troops to launch some viable force. Before that it can pin pricks at few places for which troops in defense would suffice. It is to cater for medium level conflict situations that NE requires extra reserves as lateral move of defensive formations are not possible so far.

Strike Corps for mountains is meant to restore an adverse situation rather than capture Tibet.
I'm assuming any thrust into TAR will have more considerations than just territorial gains. There must be tactical and strategic advantage gained by such an assault.Any thrust IMO should aim to cutoff the most vital routes close to the border before the Chinese can deploy the bulk of its forces into the region.
As such, the thrust will need to be quite deep, if we are to enter the negotiating table on equal footing.

The Chinese will muster up additional 30 divisions (450,000 troops) in 30 days into the TAR, and we are talking of massing one strike corps in the same period. Also note that the terrain on their side is favourable for positioning of heavy equipment, including Rocket artillery.

With the kind of infra the Chinese have, they can mass up a division a day (30 in a month). And it has several fuel and ammunition stockpiles stored in Tibet which will enable sustained supplies in case the Rail network is knocked out.

In any war, we expect China to be the agressor. They could mass 3 divisons (one group army) in as little as 3 days into any area of their choosing and begin offensives. They don't need the whole 30 divisons to do that. A copy of our Cold start if you will.
We do not posses the ability to respond at such short notice against such a massive force, primarily due to inferior infra.
 

pmaitra

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@DivineHeretic, I would like to ask you something, and please don't misconstrue this as discouraging you to write what you wish to, what is the need for India to make a thrust into TAR? I believe that would mean attacking PRC from the eastern sector. We don't have a problem there. We have a problem with Aksai Chin, and that is part of East Turkestan or what the Chinese call "New Territory" i.e. Xinjiang, with just a little bit in TAR.

Our military objectives in the eastern sector are going to be defensive, and maybe a few minor offensive actions only if feasible and advantageous. Our main objective would be in the western sector, i.e. to evict the PLA from Aksai Chin.
 
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Bhadra

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I'm assuming any thrust into TAR will have more considerations than just territorial gains. There must be tactical and strategic advantage gained by such an assault.Any thrust IMO should aim to cutoff the most vital routes close to the border before the Chinese can deploy the bulk of its forces into the region.
As such, the thrust will need to be quite deep, if we are to enter the negotiating table on equal footing.

The Chinese will muster up additional 30 divisions (450,000 troops) in 30 days into the TAR, and we are talking of massing one strike corps in the same period. Also note that the terrain on their side is favourable for positioning of heavy equipment, including Rocket artillery.

With the kind of infra the Chinese have, they can mass up a division a day (30 in a month). And it has several fuel and ammunition stockpiles stored in Tibet which will enable sustained supplies in case the Rail network is knocked out.

In any war, we expect China to be the agressor. They could mass 3 divisons (one group army) in as little as 3 days into any area of their choosing and begin offensives. They don't need the whole 30 divisons to do that. A copy of our Cold start if you will.
We do not posses the ability to respond at such short notice against such a massive force, primarily due to inferior infra.
Pray tell me what can three divisions do in mountains ?
Cold start ?

India would probably cold start with 6 divisions plus ?

China would do cold start when nine division plus sitting in defenses against them with three divisions ?

Then wait for thirty days for additional troops to build up ?

What cold start is that ?

Though it is fears but nuances are not clear

INDIA FEARS CHINA MAY COPYCAT ITS MILITARY DOCTRINE | idrw.org
 

pmaitra

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@Bhadra, the saving grace here is that for India's Cold Start against Pakistan, most of it is close to built up infrastructure and in low levels. A PLA Cold Start against India would mean doing everything that India does at heights of over 15,000 feet, in a cold, barren, and desolate desert far away from PRC's population centres. I hope they prepare for that, because that alone will drain them economically.

In a lighter vein, PLA will have to get a lot of special oils and lubricants for its equipment. ;)
 
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Blackwater

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CHINA HAS AROUND 4 LAKH soldier along indian border:wave::wave::wave::sad::sad:


40,000 soldier will be enough if India thinking with Pakistani formula of 1 Indian =10 Chinese soldier :lol::lol::lol:
 
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DivineHeretic

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There are plenty of airfields in North Bengal and Assam. Troop induction won't be a problem.

We did it before, and we can do it better now: Operation Chequerboard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I do agree though, we need to build roads, plenty of them.
I agree troop induction is not the biggest problem. Especially since the mountain divisions are devoid of armoured assets/BLT etc, and include only signals, artillery elements and other lighter assets, air deployment will not be a big headache.

The bigger problem will be logistics, especially when the shooting starts. It is quite different from the requirements in peacetime. In peace you are required to only supply food, clothing and fuel and a limited amount of ammunition. In war, you will also be conducting CASEVAC, reinforcement induction,sustained ammunition supply and a variety of ops with your supply assets.

Even the 145 M777 guns firing 6 rounds a minute for 8 hours daily will require 144 tons of Artillery rounds a day. Thats 30 sorties a day by Mi-17 just for the guns for the strike corps. For a short intense war, we can conduct operations via air supply only. That I agree. But any prolonged one, as in case of a stalemate will have us in a very uneviable position.

Though op Checkerboard did show us our airlift capability, any field commander is far more comfortable when he has a road/naval supply line to his troops.
 

Bhadra

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@Bhadra, the saving grace here is that for India's Cold Start against Pakistan, most of it is close to built up infrastructure and in low levels. A PLA Cold Start against India would mean doing everything that India does at heights of over 15,000 feet, in a cold, barren, and desolate desert far away from PRC's population centres. I hope they prepare for that, because that alone will drain them economically.

In a lighter vein, PLA will have to get a lot of special oils and lubricants for its equipment. ;)
Chinese cold start would be occupying unheld disputed areas or areas like Raki Naullah. But Indian Army is quite capable of evicting them from those areas if the politicians and bureaucrats develop some balls.
 
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Bhadra

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I agree troop induction is not the biggest problem. Especially since the mountain divisions are devoid of armoured assets/BLT etc, and include only signals, artillery elements and other lighter assets, air deployment will not be a big headache.

The bigger problem will be logistics, especially when the shooting starts. It is quite different from the requirements in peacetime. In peace you are required to only supply food, clothing and fuel and a limited amount of ammunition. In war, you will also be conducting CASEVAC, reinforcement induction,sustained ammunition supply and a variety of ops with your supply assets.

Even the 145 M777 guns firing 6 rounds a minute for 8 hours daily will require 144 tons of Artillery rounds a day. Thats 30 sorties a day by Mi-17 just for the guns for the strike corps. For a short intense war, we can conduct operations via air supply only. That I agree. But any prolonged one, as in case of a stalemate will have us in a very uneviable position.

Though op Checkerboard did show us our airlift capability, any field commander is far more comfortable when he has a road/naval supply line to his troops.
Then have multiple logistic nodes in forward areas....

You are somewhat relating operations in mountains to those in plains and deserts.
 

Bhadra

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CHINA HAS AROUND 4 LAKH soldier along indian border:wave::wave::wave::sad::sad:


40,000 soldier will be enough if India thinking with Pakistani formula of 1 Indian =10 Chinese soldier :lol::lol::lol:
The Indians have to sit tight on mountains and the attacking Chinese would be ten soldiers to one Indian soldier .....

so simple....
 

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