Germans may find it hard to sell their subs

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by Daredevil, Apr 10, 2013.

  1. Daredevil

    Daredevil On Vacation! Administrator

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    Questions have arisen about the efficacy of German submarines just before Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Chancellor Angela Merkel sit down for talks in Berlin late this week when arms trade will be a certain, but underplayed, segment of the discussions.

    A submarine tender is too lucrative one to covet and like all big ticket military hardware deals, sees tremendous undercutting of the rival’s position. This time the contest among French, German and Russian submarines promises to be no different. The last tender, close to Rs. 20,000 crore, was bagged by the French. The Germans were not considered due to a corruption charge that was rejected by the courts here.

    Technical problems

    Fingers are being pointed at the poor performance of German submarines in the South Korean and Greek navies. The Hindu has independently verified that allegations about persisting technical problems with the Korean’s HDW Type 214 submarines are correct. The informed sources also confirmed that a prototype Greek submarine of German design too suffered from serious problems.

    But the Indian Navy, badly short of submarines and struggling to complete the French Scorpene project, does not have any complaints about its four German submarines. Sources in the Navy said the four HDW submarines were working fine and they were satisfied with their performance. The sources expressed ignorance about HDW submarines malfunctioning in South Korea. But Korean diplomatic sources admitted there were problems.

    The German submarines with the Indian Navy seemed to have followed the same trajectory as the VIP AgustaWestland helicopters. Of the 12 choppers, three have arrived while the import of the remaining has been suspended due to bribery charge. Similarly, in the case of the German submarines, two arrived from the OEM and the other two were assembled here. Then the bribery charge struck and the option to build two more was withdrawn.

    Vital shortcoming

    According to the sources, Korean submarines Son Won II, Jeongji and Jung-geun were immobilised after the first submarine was badly damaged on the high seas. It has also been alleged that the submarines suffer noise problems. This is a vital shortcoming in a submarine which has to be as noiseless as possible to avoid detection. Or, as Navy officials say, they will be as easy to detect as some Chinese submarines that tried to recce the Bay of Bengal. “We picked them up each time they came,” claimed a Navy official.:D

    Independent sources, however, said the noise levels of the German submarines were lower than the requirement but higher than what the manufacturers – ThyssenKrupp Marine Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) – had promised. The sources making the allegations also claimed HDW were fined for the persisting technical problems but none could independently verify the charge.

    In the case of Greek submarine Papanikolis, the sources backed their claims with video footage that showed an unusual tilt as it dived. The Germans worked on the Papanikolis but the government has raised other issues.

    These problems mean it will not be easy sailing for the German submarines when they make a pitch for the Indian Navy tender.

    Currently, the Ministry of Defence is looking at the configuration for supply with circumspection and some more time might be required before a firm decision is taken to call for bids.

    Ironically, the allegations against the Germans have originated from one of its close allies, thus indicating the cut-throat competition that is always an integral component of such large military tenders.

    Germans may find it hard to sell their subs - The Hindu
     
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  3. Godless-Kafir

    Godless-Kafir DFI Buddha Senior Member

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    But Future weapons program in Discovery claimed the German Subs are the most silent ones in the world!!!


     
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  4. arnabmit

    arnabmit Homo Communis Indus Senior Member

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    Why not invest in something like this and swarm the Indian littoral waters with it?

    [video=youtube_share;OM2x5QraDRU]http://youtu.be/OM2x5QraDRU[/video]
     
  5. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    Type 214 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Korean Navy orders
     
  6. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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  7. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    France is the clear winner.
     
  8. Apollyon

    Apollyon Führer Senior Member

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    What if Japan decide to sell Soryu Class ? :troll:
    I bet ya, Indian Navy would jump and take the offer with no second thoughts. But there's a big "If" :(
     
  9. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Let them first issue the RFP :bored:
     
  10. lookieloo

    lookieloo Regular Member

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    In the rather murky world of submarines, it's pretty hard to place fault when one nation's design is built/operated in another's. Personally, I suspect that the German submarines built by Germany are doing just fine, especially when operated by Germans. ;)
     
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  11. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    India could have sent them an RFI, but they did not. I bet ya it isn't even on the table.
     
  12. bose

    bose Senior Member Senior Member

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    It makes sense to go for bigger Scorpine with AIP, VLS and other goodies... India can use the existing production line of Scorpine and moreover we do not need to put in place new infrustructure & training requirements...
     
  13. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    I didn't know Scorpene had VLS, but an extended compartment is already made for Brasil so it shouldn't be a problem.
     
  14. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    It make sense for India to buy more Scorpene subs to maximise inter-operability with Pakistan Navy... :thumb:
     
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  15. arnabmit

    arnabmit Homo Communis Indus Senior Member

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  16. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    Funny comment, but 2 things. Operation skill would not affect inherent noise problem with screw (propeller), and Germans must train buyers of their subs I would think.
     
  17. why can't indian navy design its own diesel electric submarine with aip.we have sufficient experience in building german hdw,russian kilos,french scorpene and our own arihant.submarines nowadays have become exceedingly costly and it would be wise to go for indegeneous route rather than wasting precious forex reserves given the favourable attitude of indian navy towards indegenization.
     
  18. arnabmit

    arnabmit Homo Communis Indus Senior Member

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    AFAIK hydrogen fuel cell AIP is a much complex technology than SSN or SSBN. One step at a time...

     
  19. lookieloo

    lookieloo Regular Member

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    You seem to be forgetting that the Type 214 is an export design that Germany itself does not operate (looks quite different from the 212s they use), and there's little way of knowing for sure which technology is/isn't getting transferred or how effective non-German shipyards are at constructing the boats. I would cite Australia's problems with the Collins-class as an example of what can go wrong in a similar situation.
     
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