Genocide of Indians in America

[s002wjh]

its not the 1st time nor will be last. but due to internet/global media, the chance for a developed country to commite genocide again is zero.

 

[Damian]

I wrote the statement in a paragraph. You ignored the sentence preceding it, you ignored the sentence following it. Then you put your own spin to it and came to a completely illogical conclusion. Well done.

Conclusion is that there was no genocide, just deal with it.

If education=indoctrination, then yes. Perhaps you misunderstand what education actually means. By the way most of their education syllabus included scripture, go figure.

If learning language and other usefull things is indoctrination then... well I can't argue with such "arguments".

Of course. So the Natives refuse to send their children to schools set up by people who had invaded their land ,considered them subhumans and were on their way to exterminate them. Such evil.

So you know what, you should stop using computer, afterall it is our invention, and it should be evil by such logic.

And I could point out many other inventions, that were made by white people, and should be then considered as evil, just like the education offered by colonists to natives.

This is a juicy bait for me to make a very offensive remark but I will ignore it considering I'm such a better person.

Aha, as I said, you consider education offered by colonists as evil, then stop using a computer.

I still don't understand what is an accidental genocide. Unless you are trying to say that invaders who wanted native people off their land, had bounties on them, resorted too early form of germ warfare accidentally killed off majority of a race then perhaps you are correct.

There is no such thing as accidential genocide, neither there was genocide of natives.

Exactly, too poorly educated. I mean what is education without just the right amount of propaganda right?

Oh, you are exactly the best example of propaganda... hey look there are these evil white colonists, there are killing everyone, let's call them evil, because they are evil!

This is yours and some other people here mentality.

Actually

1) You called the Natives primitives several times in your post.
2) No one here called Europeans primitive.

1) Primitive in sense of their civilization development, not intelect, tough they didn't had any idea about science.
2) Aha, tell me about it, you see this Chinese moron calling westerners scumbags?

 

[Dovah]

Conclusion is that there was no genocide, just deal with it.

Okay. Only there was one.

If learning language and other usefull things is indoctrination then... well I can't argue with such "arguments".

No. Forcefully making people learn the language of invaders is a step towards indoctrination. Language represents culture, to take away language is to strip someone of his identity, I don't expect you to understand though.

So you know what, you should stop using computer, afterall it is our invention, and it should be evil by such logic.

First of all this would not be a logical conclusion to my comment.

Secondly, if we extend your thinking further, you should stop using 1) the decimal system(us) 2) gun powder(the Chinese) etc. you get the idea. Anyway, you do realize that all modern inventions that you enjoy are a result of contributions from all different societies/ethnicities right? Guess not.

There is no such thing as accidential genocide

Okay.

neither there was genocide of natives.

Like a parrot. I'm amazed.

Oh, you are exactly the best example of propaganda.

Thank you, I try.

hey look there are these evil white colonists

No one mentioned white in the thread before you went off on a tangent.

This is yours and some other people here mentality.

Yawn.

1) Primitive in sense of their civilization development, not intelect, tough they didn't had any idea about science.

Except the colonizers considered them inferior. I can reproduce quotes by American Presidents confirming their point of view of natural inferiority of natives but then again, you can Google it yourself.

2) Aha, tell me about it, you see this Chinese moron calling westerners scumbags?

Yeah, I missed that. But his user handle is Satanist, what did you expect?

 

[Damian]

Okay. Only there was one.

No, there was no genocide.

No. Forcefully making people learn the language of invaders is a step towards indoctrination. Language represents culture, to take away language is to strip someone of his identity, I don't expect you to understand though.

No, by learning other language, nobody forced them to abandone their own language/languages. By learning english, they could better interact with colonists.

In the end it is a win-win for both sides.

First of all this would not be a logical conclusion to my comment.

Secondly, if we extend your thinking further, you should stop using 1) the decimal system(us) 2) gun powder(the Chinese) etc. you get the idea. Anyway, you do realize that all modern inventions that you enjoy are a result of contributions from all different societies/ethnicities right? Guess not.

Ha, but I do not call other nations as scumbags, primitives (in intelectual termes, however on civilization progress terms, some can be considered as less progressed, see Africa), and do not cinsider their inventions as unworthy use.

Read again what I wrote, if people from some countries see white humans as primitives, scumbags etc. why they use our inventions and why they for example enjoy our music?

No one mentioned white in the thread before you went off on a tangent.

Really, get back and read it from the very beggining, afterall it is about relations of white colonists and natives.

Except the colonizers considered them inferior. I can reproduce quotes by American Presidents confirming their point of view of natural inferiority of natives but then again, you can Google it yourself.

Not everyone considered them inferior on intelectual or personal level, tough in civilization progress terms, yes they were inferior (lack of science, industry etc.).

Yeah, I missed that. But his user handle is Satanist, what did you expect?

User nick should not be something to make conclusions about a person, but his action, hey I know I am a dick, but he, how men, I never saw someone like him earlier.

 

[civfanatic]

I don't understand why this Pole is calling Native Americans as inferior in civilizational terms. Most Native Americans in the territory of what is now the U.S.A were at the same level of political development as Poles before the 11th century (there was never any state or organized government in Poland before this time). But there were many Native American states before and after this time, many of which were far more advanced and developed than medieval Poland.

Let us just take the example of the Aztecs, since they were one of the most famous of the Native American states, and their people were the victims of widespread massacre and rape by the Spaniards. The Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan in c.1500 had around 200,000 inhabitants and their empire had around 5 million people in total. In comparison, the Kingdom of Poland in c.1500 (which was ruled by Lithuanians, not Poles, but I digress) had only 3.25 million people, and the capital of Krakow had less than 30,000 inhabitants. The population of the Aztec capital itself was equal to more than half of Poland's entire urban population in c.1500.

Poland was the socioeconomic backwater of the Eurasian world for most of history. The fact of Poland's backwardness can be easily discerned from the following graph, which shows the top 30 European cities by population from 1050 to 1800. The only Polish city in this chart is Danzig in the 17th century, which had 60,000 inhabitants (still smaller than Native American imperial capitals centuries before). These facts of history should be understood before calling an entire group of people as "uncivilized".

 

[ice berg]

Not everyone considered them inferior on intelectual or personal level, tough in civilization progress terms, yes they were inferior (lack of science, industry etc.).

How cute of you to admit that not "everyone" thinks they are inferior.

User nick should not be something to make conclusions about a person, but his action, hey I know I am a dick, but he, how men, I never saw someone like him earlier.

Glad we have this sorted out first.

As regarding the "primitive" native americans who lack "science":
aspirin- Native Americans have been using willow tree bark for thousands of years to reduce fever and pain. When chemists analyzed willows in the last century, they discovered salicylic acid, the basis of the modern drug aspirin.

calendars- Were developed by throughout North America, Mesoamerica, and South America. They are known to have been in used since 600 BC. American Indian calendars were so precise that by the 5th century BC they were only 19 minutes off.

chocolate- The Mayans were the first to drink cocoa. This tradition was later passed on to the Aztec's who called the beverage xocalatl. Natives in mesoamerica introduced it to the Spanish and Portuguese, but they kept the beloved xocalatl from the rest of Europe for nearly a century.

corn (maize) - The domestication of maize, now cultivated throughout the world, is one of the most influential technological contributions of Mesoamericans.
compulsory education - The Aztec Triple Alliance, which ruled from 1428 to 1521, is considered to be the first state to implement a system of universal compulsory education

Native American contributions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Take a deep breath next time you spin your propaganda and street gossips.

 

[Damian]

Glad we have this sorted out first.

As regarding the "primitive" native americans who lack "science":
aspirin- Native Americans have been using willow tree bark for thousands of years to reduce fever and pain. When chemists analyzed willows in the last century, they discovered salicylic acid, the basis of the modern drug aspirin.

calendars- Were developed by throughout North America, Mesoamerica, and South America. They are known to have been in used since 600 BC. American Indian calendars were so precise that by the 5th century BC they were only 19 minutes off.

chocolate- The Mayans were the first to drink cocoa. This tradition was later passed on to the Aztec's who called the beverage xocalatl. Natives in mesoamerica introduced it to the Spanish and Portuguese, but they kept the beloved xocalatl from the rest of Europe for nearly a century.

corn (maize) - The domestication of maize, now cultivated throughout the world, is one of the most influential technological contributions of Mesoamericans.
compulsory education - The Aztec Triple Alliance, which ruled from 1428 to 1521, is considered to be the first state to implement a system of universal compulsory education

Native American contributions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Take a deep breath next time you spin your propaganda and street gossips.

This is not science.

As for propaganda, do not talk about propaganda, if you live in a state run by propaganda mostly.

I don't understand why this Pole is calling Native Americans as inferior in civilizational terms. Most Native Americans in the territory of what is now the U.S.A were at the same level of political development as Poles before the 11th century (there was never any state or organized government in Poland before this time). But there were many Native American states before and after this time, many of which were far more advanced and developed than medieval Poland.

Let us just take the example of the Aztecs, since they were one of the most famous of the Native American states, and their people were the victims of widespread massacre and rape by the Spaniards. The Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan in c.1500 had around 200,000 inhabitants and their empire had around 5 million people in total. In comparison, the Kingdom of Poland in c.1500 (which was ruled by Lithuanians, not Poles, but I digress) had only 3.25 million people, and the capital of Krakow had less than 30,000 inhabitants. The population of the Aztec capital itself was equal to more than half of Poland's entire urban population in c.1500.

Poland was the socioeconomic backwater of the Eurasian world for most of history. The fact of Poland's backwardness can be easily discerned from the following graph, which shows the top 30 European cities by population from 1050 to 1800. The only Polish city in this chart is Danzig in the 17th century, which had 60,000 inhabitants (still smaller than Native American imperial capitals centuries before). These facts of history should be understood before calling an entire group of people as "uncivilized".

First learn something more about western, central and eastern Europe before you start to talk.

Aztecs that you prise so much, were on a primitive level compared to the our commonwealth in terms or development or military. Or to overall Europe of you wish.

Of course you will never admitt this, typical for a 3rd world rascists who hate white people.

Commonwealth by at least 100 years was considered as regional power in Europe, guess what, we actually conguered Rus and Moscow, contrary to Napoleon who needed to keep his army in ruins. And commonwealth was near a succesfull ending of a plan to place a tsar in Moscow, or even uniting eastern states with commonwealth.

But what can be expected by people of your kind eh, perhaps only complete lack of historical knowledge.

As for monarchy, there were many dynasties ruling many countries in Europe, and dynasty of Jaggielons is not purely Lithuanian but they are Polish-Lithuanian dynasty (they share a common blood line with Piast dynasty and nobles).

But as far as I see, you are incapable to even comprehend the idea of commonwealth.

 

[civfanatic]

This is not science.

Calendrics is an application of science. You cannot have a precise and reliable calendar without a good understanding of astronomy, and Mesoamerican and South American astronomy was indeed very advanced for the time. Native American mathematics were also very advanced, as the Mayas independently developed their own numeral and decimal system and the concept of zero, centuries before the Poles even had a concept of a state.

Mesoamerican and South American engineering and architecture was also quite advanced, and can be considered another example of scientific applications. You cannot build such large and precise structures without any knowledge of mathematics or science. Aztec agriculture and land reclamation can also be counted as an example of native innovation in the field of engineering (see chinampas).

First learn something more about western, central and eastern Europe before you start to talk.

Aztecs that you prise so much, were on a primitive level compared to the our commonwealth in terms or development or military. Or to overall Europe of you wish.

I just presented solid evidence that the Kingdom of Poland was less economically developed than the Aztec Empire, and you still bark about this supposed "primitiveness" of Native Americans. The largest Polish "cities" in the Middle Ages were small towns compared to the largest Native American cities. Yes, the Poles had iron, horses, and gunpowder (so did almost everybody else in the Eastern Hemisphere) which Native Americans did not have, but social and economic development is not based on that. It is based on the size of urban settlements, the level of production, trade networks, etc. In those parameters, Poland was indeed underdeveloped compared to the most advanced Native American states, let alone the rest of Eurasia.

Btw, the Aztecs did not even possess the most advanced political structure in pre-Columbian America. That would be the Incas.

Of course you will never admitt this, typical for a 3rd world rascists who hate white people.

Do you call everybody who challenges your narrow-minded word view a "racist"?

Commonwealth by at least 100 years was considered as regional power in Europe, guess what, we actually conguered Rus and Moscow, contrary to Napoleon who needed to keep his army in ruins. And commonwealth was near a succesfull ending of a plan to place a tsar in Moscow, or even uniting eastern states with commonwealth.

Russia was also a socioeconomic backwater for most of history. One backwater conquering another backwater doesn't prove anything. Russia was the most rural, agrarian, and economically backward state in all of Europe, with the smallest cities and the least science and industry. This was the case until modern times. In the chart that I posted of the 30 largest European cities from 1050 to 1800, you cannot find a single Russian city.

 

[Damian]

Calendrics is an application of science. You cannot have a precise and reliable calendar without a good understanding of astronomy, and Mesoamerican and South American astronomy was indeed very advanced for the time. Native American mathematics were also very advanced, as the Mayas independently developed their own numeral and decimal system and the concept of zero, centuries before the Poles even had a concept of a state.

Mesoamerican and South American engineering and architecture was also quite advanced, and can be considered another example of scientific applications. You cannot build such large and precise structures without any knowledge of mathematics or science. Aztec agriculture and land reclamation can also be counted as an example of native innovation in the field of engineering (see chinampas).

Even if so, this doesn't help them.

I just presented solid evidence that the Kingdom of Poland was less economically developed than the Aztec Empire, and you still bark about this supposed "primitiveness" of Native Americans. The largest Polish "cities" in the Middle Ages were small towns compared to the largest Native American cities. Yes, the Poles had iron, horses, and gunpowder (so did almost everybody else in the Eastern Hemisphere) which Native Americans did not have, but social and economic development is not based on that. It is based on the size of urban settlements, the level of production, trade networks, etc. In those parameters, Poland was indeed underdeveloped compared to the most advanced Native American states, let alone the rest of Eurasia.

Btw, the Aztecs did not even possess the most advanced political structure in pre-Columbian America. That would be the Incas.

Really, wo, so we, European primitives conquered these super advanced civilizations.

You know what, You don't ashame me in any way, you make me even more proud.

Russia was also a socioeconomic backwater for most of history. One backwater conquering another backwater doesn't prove anything. Russia was the most rural, agrarian, and economically backward state in all of Europe, with the smallest cities and the least science and industry. This was the case until modern times. In the chart that I posted of the 30 largest European cities from 1050 to 1800, you cannot find a single Russian city.

As above, we primitive Europeans developed much faster than these advanced civilizations, we conquered them.

I am not ashamed, I am even more proud how much we, the inferiors were capable to achieve, it shows how we primitives are strong, thanks to principles on which our mentality and civilization is based.

 

[civfanatic]

Even if so, this doesn't help them.

Is this a joke? Try to imagine your life without a calendar or organized concept of time, the concept of zero or decimal system, or agriculture, and then look back at this sentence and try to understand how stupid it sounds.

Really, wo, so we, European primitives conquered these super advanced civilizations.

Not you Poles, but the Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, French, and English who were far more advanced than Poland. Look again at the chart I posted, and look at how many of the cities belong to those states in Western Europe, rather than Central or Eastern Europe.

Also, just because one group of people conquers another doesn't mean that the conqueror is more advanced. The Mongols conquered the whole of China, but no one would claim that the Mongols were more advanced than the Chinese. They only had a better military system and tactics.

As above, we primitive Europeans developed much faster than these advanced civilizations, we conquered them.

I am not ashamed, I am even more proud how much we, the inferiors were capable to achieve, it shows how we primitives are strong, thanks to principles on which our mentality and civilization is based.

Again, it was not you Poles who developed much faster than anybody, but other Europeans. You Poles were eventually conquered and wiped off the world map in the 18th century. By that time, Poland was widely considered one of the least developed and backward states in Europe, as it was for most of history. Frederick the Great, one of the greatest leaders in human history (and who I admire), famously said that the Polish government was the worst in Europe, behind only the Turks.

 

[civfanatic]

Frederick the Great, one of the greatest leaders in human history (and who I admire), famously said that the Polish government was the worst in Europe, behind only the Turks.

My source for this statement, by the way, is Frederick the Great: A Historical Profile by Gerhard Ritter. It also deserves mention that Frederick the Great actually compared the level of development of the Poles with that of Native American tribesmen in North America.

Link: Frederick the Great: a historical profile - Gerhard Ritter - Google Books

 

[Damian]

Is this a joke? Try to imagine your life without a calendar or organized concept of time, the concept of zero or decimal system, or agriculture, and then look back at this sentence and try to understand how stupid it sounds.

I do not talk about lack of calendar, but that their advancements didn't help them.

Not you Poles, but the Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, French, and English who were far more advanced than Poland. Look again at the chart I posted, and look at how many of the cities belong to those states in Western Europe, rather than Central or Eastern Europe.

We were part of a bigger system, called roman-christian civilization.

I know, I know, you will do everything to undermine me, sorry, You can't do it.

Even if my country did not had colonies, we were part of a bigger system, and I am damn proud of it.

When it comes to military, Polish cavalry was considered as the best and most effective cavalry force in history of European military.

Also many specialists focused on history of swords and sabres, considers Polish Hussar saber as the most perfect saber design ever.

We had our accomplishements, in some things we were better than others.

But to know this, you would need to learn history.

And I have absolutely nothing against achievements of other European nations, they had conditions and capabilities to start colonization, good for them, we had our achievements on other fields, in the end it benefited us all.

Also, just because one group of people conquers another doesn't mean that the conqueror is more advanced. The Mongols conquered the whole of China, but no one would claim that the Mongols were more advanced than the Chinese. They only had a better military system and tactics.

Kudos to Mongols from my side, and their capability to conquer arrogant Chinese.

Again, it was not you Poles who developed much faster than anybody, but other Europeans. You Poles were eventually conquered and wiped off the world map in the 18th century. By that time, Poland was widely considered one of the least developed and backward states in Europe, as it was for most of history. Frederick the Great, one of the greatest leaders in human history (and who I admire), famously said that the Polish government was the worst in Europe, behind only the Turks.

Do you know who was Nicolaus Copernicus? Yeah, he was a Pole and he was one of the most briliant minds of his era. Do not talk shit that we did not contributed in to development of Europe.

Do you know who defeated Turkish Army invading Europe, yeah we did, so we did contributed in to success of Europeans as much as other countries in Europe. And this is depiste internal competition between Europeans.

As for our goverment, of course it was the worst, as it was one of the first democracies in Europe after the antic period. Personaly I also hate democracy, and prefer absolute monarchy and imperialism, but what I can do, majority of people prefer failed democracy.

But I completely understand that ignorant like you, who do not know history of Europe, will talk BS only to back up his agenda.

What I can do, I can only laugh from idiots.

 

[civfanatic]

I do not talk about lack of calendar, but that their advancements didn't help them.

What do you mean that their advancements "didn't help them"? Having an accurate calendar, a system for mathematics and accounting, and increased agricultural productivity all "helps" a civilization and the running of a state.

We were part of a bigger system, called roman-christian civilization.

To which the contribution of Poles was very limited, compared to Western Europeans. Let alone the overseas conquests of Poles, which were nonexistent.

Even if my country did not had colonies, we were part of a bigger system, and I am damn proud of it.

You can be proud of anything you like, just like a younger brother who failed in his life is "proud" of an older brother who succeeded in his. That pride, however, doesn't change the fact that the younger brother still didn't accomplish much.

When it comes to military, Polish cavalry was considered as the best and most effective cavalry force in history of European military.

It apparently wasn't good enough to save Poland from being conquered and partitioned.

Kudos to Mongols from my side, and their capability to conquer arrogant Chinese.

They ravaged and destroyed Poland as well, and in much less time.

Do you know who was Nicolaus Copernicus? Yeah, he was a Pole and he was one of the most briliant minds of his era. Do not talk shit that we did not contributed in to development of Europe.

Copernicus was indeed a great mind, but he was just one mind, and you cannot compare one scientist with the steady stream of innovation and discoveries which Western Europe produced from the 17th to 19th centuries. I reiterate, that Poland was the backwater of Europe.

Do you know who defeated Turkish Army invading Europe, yeah we did, so we did contributed in to success of Europeans as much as other countries in Europe. And this is depiste internal competition between Europeans.

Congrats, you defeated a declining empire which was already past its prime. If you are talking about the Great Turkish War in the late 17th century, there were plenty of other states fighting the Turks besides Poles. In fact, the Poles did not even form the majority of the soldiers fighting the Turks.

Also, let us not to deviate too far from the topic at hand. The topic is not how backwards or insignificant Poland was, but that the Native Americans should not be called "primitves" or "uncivilized", as you did.

 

[Damian]

What do you mean that their advancements "didn't help them"? Having an accurate calendar, a system for mathematics and accounting, and increased agricultural productivity all "helps" a civilization and the running of a state.

Do they exist? No, so it didn't help them.

To which the contribution of Poles was very limited, compared to Western Europeans. Let alone the overseas conquests of Poles, which were nonexistent.

1) Our contribution was good enough.
2) Our placement in Europe do not favours oversees conquests.

You can be proud of anything you like, just like a younger brother who failed in his life is "proud" of an older brother who succeeded in his. That pride, however, doesn't change the fact that the younger brother still didn't accomplish much.

"Younger brother" accomplished enough, it is only not understandable by moron on the other side of street.

It apparently wasn't good enough to save Poland from being conquered and partitioned.

It was not their fault, but a noble democracy system, which favoured corrupted and rich individuals over nation and state. You can have the best military on this planet, it won't help if there is a problem in the very interior of political system.

They ravaged and destroyed Poland as well, and in much less time.

No, Mongols did not do much damage to us, they harrased us it is truth, but nothing serious really.

Copernicus was indeed a great mind, but he was just one mind, and you cannot compare one scientist with the steady stream of innovation and discoveries which Western Europe produced from the 17th to 19th centuries. I reiterate, that Poland was the backwater of Europe.

Oh come on, we both know that you say so, only because you do not like me.

I can say that India was backwater of Earth back then as well.

Congrats, you defeated a declining empire which was already past its prime. If you are talking about the Great Turkish War in the late 17th century, there were plenty of other states fighting the Turks besides Poles. In fact, the Poles did not even form the majority of the soldiers fighting the Turks.

But our army was in the spearhead, our cavalry made a decisive strikes on Turkish army, and what is more important, Turks remembered this, and allways had a great respect towards us, as we have towards them.

Also, let us not to deviate too far from the topic at hand. The topic is not how backwards or insignificant Poland was, but that the Native Americans should not be called "primitves" or "uncivilized", as you did.

I was not a dick that started off topic, it was you. Typical for people without arguments.

 

[civfanatic]

Do they exist? No, so it didn't help them.

By this same ridiculous argument, the contribution of Copernicus is meaningless because it didn't save Poland from being conquered in the 18th century.

2) Our placement in Europe do not favours oversees conquests.

Explain then how Sweden and Denmark, which were also Baltic states like Poland, had overseas colonies in the Americas and also in India. The Polish nobility were also interested in overseas colonies, but failed to acquire any.

No, Mongols did not do much damage to us, they harrased us it is truth, but nothing serious really.

The Mongols ravaged every country they invaded, without exception. But since I don't have detailed sources on the Mongol campaigns in Poland at the moment, I will not press this point.

I can say that India was backwater of Earth back then as well.

Yes, India by the early modern period was also a backwater in terms of scientific output. Did I ever claim otherwise?

I was not a dick that started off topic, it was you. Typical for people without arguments.

It was not entirely off-topic though. I compared medieval Poland with the Native American empires to show that it is wrong to call the natives as "primitives" and "uncivilized". If they are "primitives" and "uncivilized", then so are Poles.

 

[civfanatic]

Here are some pictures of Native American cities:

Tenochititlan, the Aztec capital and one of the largest cities in the 15th century, with over 200,000 people:

Teotihuacan, an ancient city from 100 B.C.E.:

Mayan ruins at Palenque:

Macchu Picchu, the famous Incan city in the Andes Mountains:

I fail to understand how anyone can call the people who built these cities as "primitive" and "uncivilized". Only deluded racists with no respect for humanity would use such terms.

 

[PredictablyMalicious]

Native Americans cannot be considered primitive in anyway. One has to look at everything in context. Compared to Eurasia, the Americas were far removed from rest of the world. Even then, they had managed to build impressive architecture and achieve feats. For that, they should get credit.

 

[ice berg]

The Mongols ravaged every country they invaded, without exception. But since I don't have detailed sources on the Mongol campaigns in Poland at the moment, I will not press this point.

Apparently this polish kid didnt even know his own history. How you expect him to know the history of America?

Poland got ravaged three times.

The first one:

Mongol tumen, moving from recently conquered Volodymyr-Volynskyi in Kievan Rus, first sacked Lublin,[5] then besieged and sacked Sandomierz (which fell on 13 February).[5] Around this time, their forces split.[5] Orda's forces devastated central Poland, moving to Wolbórz and as far north as Łęczyca, before turning south and heading via Sieradz towards Wrocław.[5] Baidar and Kadan ravaged the southern part of Poland, moving to Chmielnik, Kraków, Bytom, Opole and finally, Legnica, before leaving Polish lands heading west and south.[5]

Baidar and Kadan on 13 February defeated a Polish army under the voivode of Kraków, Włodzimierz, in the battle of Tursko.[6] On 18 March they defeated another Polish army with units from Kraków and Sandomierz at the battle of Chmielnik.[6] Panic spread through the Polish lands, and the citizens abandoned Kraków, which was seized and burned by the Mongols by March 24.[6] In the meantime, one of the most powerful contemporary Dukes of Poland, and Duke of Silesia, Henry II the Pious, gathered his forces and allies around Legnica.[6] Henry, in order to gather more forces, even sacrificed one of the largest towns of Silesia, Wrocław (Breslau), abandoning it to the Mongols.

First Mongol invasion of Poland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Damian]

By this same ridiculous argument, the contribution of Copernicus is meaningless because it didn't save Poland from being conquered in the 18th century.

At this time yes, it was meaningless, due to countless wars and corruption of most of the most rich and powerfull nobility, we lost independence, even despite the best efforts of patriots and armed forces.

Besides this, it is hard to fight on a 3 fronts with 3 superpowers.

Explain then how Sweden and Denmark, which were also Baltic states like Poland, had overseas colonies in the Americas and also in India. The Polish nobility were also interested in overseas colonies, but failed to acquire any.

Look at map again, both Denmark and Sweden had and still have access to the north sea and thus easy route to atlantic.

It was not entirely off-topic though. I compared medieval Poland with the Native American empires to show that it is wrong to call the natives as "primitives" and "uncivilized". If they are "primitives" and "uncivilized", then so are Poles.

You see, this is typical for Indians, you hate Europeans and you do everything, including manipulation, to shows as primitives or barbarians.

Apparently this polish kid didnt even know his own history. How you expect him to know the history of America?

Apparently you are too poorly educated to even understand that Wikipedia is not allways a good source.

Mongols did little damage to us really, and they were incapable to force us to any form of compliance.

Only because some cities were damaged or even destroyed it didn't change much, and reason was simple, the nobility was mostly residing in countryside, and the countryside was a basic of economy at that time, cities were gaining importance, but it was not a process in a "blink of an eye".

What is more important, Mongols attacked during "fragmentation of Poland", where different provincess were governed by dukes, and there was no king at the moment. It was difficult time for kingdom, and it even further shows the strenght of it, that despite of internal problems (very serious ones), mongols were incapable to conquer us.

So it seems that historical ignorant here is you, not me.

 

[TrueSpirit]

@civfanatic What do you think of the human sacrifices widespread among the Aztec & Mayan (maybe Inca, as well) nobility ?

Anyone today would prefer European-style atrocious "medieval feudalism" above such an abhorrent practice.

For all their accomplishments, do you still consider those Native American civilizations civilized in the real sense ?