Genetic Origins of Pakistan by Razib Khan

Discussion in 'Pakistan' started by Singh, Jul 30, 2013.

  1. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2009
    Messages:
    20,305
    Likes Received:
    8,270
    Location:
    011
    Pakistanis are just like Indians (not that there's anything wrong with it)


    In the comments below a strange conversation grew out of the politicized nature of Pakistani identity, and its relationship to India the nation-state, and India the civilization. I assume that a typical reader, or more accurately commenter, on this weblog would be sanguine if they found out they were 10% chimpanzee. After all, it’s what’s between your ears that really matters, not who your ancestors were. I do understand that some readers have strong genealogical-nationalist interests in human population genetics, and that’s fine so long as you don’t presume that the rest of us share such priorities (this is a problem for some commenters, so please be aware that I get annoyed when you project this way, though it’s obviously not a banning offense).

    But readers who come via search engines are a different case, and that’s why I’ve started to get worried about over-reading of PCA and such. Nevertheless, I do think PCA can answer the question of whether there is any real genetic discontinuity between Pakistanis and Indians. The answer is no. Page 19 of Reich et al. supplement 1 includes in the HGDP Pakistani populations in their plot of genetic variation of Indian groups. I’ve added some labels, but the top-line is rather clear. AP = Andhara Pradesh, UP = Uttar Pradesh, GUJ = Gujarat and RAJ = Rajasthan. I assume Ind. and Pak. abbreviations are self-evident.


    [​IMG]

    Obviously it isn’t strictly true that Pakistanis are just like Indians. But, Pakistanis are pretty much exactly where you’d expect from their position in relation to India. There is only a small component of recent Persian or Central Asian ancestry, as evident by the relative closeness of Muslim Pakistanis with Hindu groups, who would presumably lack this component. The point of this post isn’t to vindicate or refute a particular political position, it’s to reinforce what’s been pretty clear from genetics over the past generation.


    Pakistanis are just like Indians (not that there's anything wrong with it) - Gene Expression | DiscoverMagazine.com
     
  2.  
  3. farhan_9909

    farhan_9909 Tihar Jail Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2012
    Messages:
    5,895
    Likes Received:
    496
    Location:
    Abbottabad,Bannu
    I can post such hundred of links.but i would want to discuss this topic with detail and neutral observation(not like in the other threads)

    my task is proving that indians and pakistani are different.almost 60-70% of pakistani are different than indians

    NOTE:I will not consider Punjabi as indian people/race since they are now in majority in Pakistan
    (30millions in india while almost 90millions in pakistan)

    but tomorrow
     
  4. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,336
    Likes Received:
    1,955
    Location:
    Pindliyon ka gooda
    Your task is to bring pure Islam to that country of illiterate beggars which is called Pakistan. India is India. Pakistan is Pakhana. No one is really interested in the similarities between your and your cousin spouses, but many are fascinated by how much Pakistanis worry that they are considered Indians even by your masters the Saudis. You don't like that and I can empathize with that. Even illiterate starving half wits can have feelings
     
  5. bennedose

    bennedose Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,336
    Likes Received:
    1,955
    Location:
    Pindliyon ka gooda
    Liar. Let me see you post just five scholarly genetics papers.All you do is bluff. You are a true Pakhanastani.
     
    VIP, lcatejas, sob and 1 other person like this.
  6. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Messages:
    24,274
    Likes Received:
    11,281
    Location:
    BANGalore
    Razib Khan will be branded a RAW/Mossad/CIA Zionist evil :D :rotflmao:
     
    mikhail, VIP, A chauhan and 2 others like this.
  7. Dovah

    Dovah Untermensch Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2011
    Messages:
    4,754
    Likes Received:
    3,273
    Location:
    Modindia
    I will be following this thread. I really want to see what 'proof' Farhaan provides for his claims rather than the usual 'I don't consider', 'One word', 'Ancient Pakistan' and 'Everyone knows'

    Actually I want to see what constitutes credible proof for him
     
  8. drkrn

    drkrn Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2010
    Messages:
    2,455
    Likes Received:
    898
    Location:
    visakhapatnam
    9 crore punjabis in pakistan...hmmm
    sounds like a good way of another division
     
  9. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2012
    Messages:
    2,654
    Likes Received:
    4,043
    Location:
    New Delhi
    Bro, Pls understand that at the time of partition, Pak punjab had the largest indian migrant population as Punjab was the closest border with Pakistan from north India. Your 90m Punjabies are a mix of a lot of Indian ethnic muslims and not true Punjabies as such. But the Punjabies who came over to india settled in Indian Punjab are all Punjabies.
     
  10. Defenceindia2010

    Defenceindia2010 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    446
    Likes Received:
    315
    Location:
    LAND OF THE WARRIORS
    The Genetic formulation of Pakistanis explained with the help of BODMAS:

    GARBAGE + BULL SHIT - INTELLIGENCE x GOATS / CAMELS squaring the result by ARABIFICATION = PAKISTANI
    . :taunt1:
     
  11. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2012
    Messages:
    2,654
    Likes Received:
    4,043
    Location:
    New Delhi
    I somehow tend to agree with @farhaan_9909 that Pakies are a different breed. I have my reasons as no matter whatever dirt you add to the genes of Indians, we will never be able to become such morons/idiots. Our genes are much stronger and far superior to theirs. Calling them to be like us Indians is actually shaming ourselves. From now on I wud request all members to say that Pakistanies are from arab/CIS. Let us maintain our superiority over these slaves.
     
    VIP, A chauhan, bennedose and 3 others like this.
  12. Blackwater

    Blackwater Veteran Member Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    Messages:
    20,983
    Likes Received:
    11,810
    Location:
    Akhand Bharat
    @ farhaan for you my bro

    My name is Pakistan and I’m not an Arab



    n 1973, my paternal grandparents visited Makkah to perform the first of their two Hajj pilgrimages.

    With them were two of my grandmother’s sisters and their respective husbands.

    Upon reaching Jeddah, they hailed a taxi from the airport and headed for their designated hotel.

    The driver of the taxi was a Sudanese man. As my grandparents and one of my grandmother’s sisters settled themselves in the taxi, the driver leisurely began driving towards the hotel and on the way inserted a cassette of Arabic songs into the car’s Japanese cassette-player.

    My grandfather who was seated in the front seat beside the driver noticed that the man kept glancing at the rear view mirror, and every time he did that, one of his eyebrows would rise.

    Curious, my grandfather turned his head to see exactly what was it about the women seated in the back seat that the taxi driver found so amusing.

    This was what he discovered: As my grandmother was trying to take a quick nap, her sister too had her eyes closed, but her head was gently swinging from left to right to the beat of the music and she kept whispering (as if in quiet spiritual ecstasy) the Arabic expression Subhanallah, subhanallah …’

    My grandfather knew enough Arabic to realise that the song to which my grandmother’s sister was swinging and praising the Almighty for was about an (Egyptian) Romeo who was lamenting his past as a heart-breaking flirt.

    After giving a sideways glance to the driver to make sure he didn’t understand Punjabi, my grandfather politely asked my grandmother’s sister: ‘I didn’t know you were so much into music.’

    ‘Allah be praised, brother,’ she replied. ‘Isn’t it wonderful?’

    The chatter woke my grandmother up: ‘What is so wonderful?’ She asked. ‘This,’ said her sister, pointing at one of the stereo speakers behind her. ‘So peaceful and spiritual …’

    My grandfather let off a sudden burst of an albeit shy and muffled laughter. ‘Sister,’ he said, ‘the singer is not singing holy verses. He is singing about his romantic past.’

    My grandmother started to laugh as well. Her sister’s spiritual smile was at once replaced by an utterly confused look: ‘What …?’

    ‘Sister,’ my grandfather explained, ‘Arabs don’t go around chanting spiritual and holy verses. Do you think they quote a verse from the holy book when, for example, they go to a fruit shop to buy fruit or want toothpaste?’

    I’m sure my grandmother’s sister got the point. Not everything Arabic is holy.

    Even though I was only a small child then I clearly remember my grandfather relating the episode with great relish. Though he was an extremely conservative and religious man and twice performed the Hajj, he refused to sport a beard, and wasn’t much of a fan of the Arabs (especially the monarchical kind).

    He was proud of the fact that he was born in a small town in north Punjab that before 1947 was part of India.

    In the early 1980s when Saudi money and influence truly began to take hold on the culture and politics of Pakistan, there were many families (especially from the Punjab) that actually began to rewrite their histories.


    For example, families and clans that had emerged from within the South Asian region began to claim that their ancestors actually came from Arabia.

    Something like this happened within the Paracha clan as well. In 1982 a book (authored by one of my grandfather’s many cousins) claimed that the Paracha clan originally appeared in Yemen and was converted to Islam during the time of the Holy Prophet (Pbuh).

    The truth, however, was that like a majority of Pakistanis, Parachas too were once either Hindus or Buddhists who were converted to Islam by Sufi saints between the 11th and 15th centuries.

    When the cousin gifted his book to my grandfather, he rubbished the claim and told him that he might attract Saudi Riyals with the book but zero historical credibility.

    But historical accuracy and credibility does not pan well in an insecure country like Pakistan whose state and people, even after six decades of existence, are yet to clearly define exactly what constitutes their nationalistic and cultural identity.

    After the complete fall of the Mughal Empire in the 19th century till about the late 1960s, Pakistanis (post-1947), attempted to separate themselves from other religious communities of the region by identifying with those Persian cultural aspects that had reigned supreme in Muslim royal courts in India, especially during the Mughal era.

    However, after the 1971 East Pakistan debacle, the state with the help of conservative historians and ulema made a conscious effort to divorce Pakistan’s history from its Hindu and Persian past and enact a project to bond this history with a largely mythical and superficial link with Arabia.

    The project began to evolve at a much more rapid pace from the 1980s onwards. The streaming in of the ‘Petro Dollars’ from oil-rich monarchies and the Pakistanis’ increasing interaction with their Arab employers in these countries, turned Pakistan’s historical identity on its head.

    In other words, instead of investing intellectual resources to develop a nationalism that was grounded and rooted in the more historically accurate sociology and politics of the Muslims of the region, a reactive attempt was made to dislodge one form of ‘cultural imperialism’ and import by adopting another.

    For example, attempts were made to dislodge ‘Hindu and Western cultural influences’ in the Pakistani society by adopting Arabic cultural hegemony that came as a pre-requisite and condition with the Arabian Petro Dollar.

    The point is, instead of assimilating the finer points of the diverse religious and ethnic cultures that our history is made of and synthesise them to form a more convincing and grounded nationalism and cultural identity, we have decided to reject our diverse and pluralistic past and instead adopt cultural dimensions of a people who, ironically, still consider non-Arabs like Pakistanis as second-class Muslims.

    My name is Pakistan and I’m not an Arab - DAWN.COM
     
    tramp and A chauhan like this.
  13. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2009
    Messages:
    43,118
    Likes Received:
    23,543
    Location:
    Somewhere
    I totally agree with you.

    Camels are your near bred.
     
    mikhail, bennedose and Blackwater like this.
  14. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    31,640
    Likes Received:
    17,124
    Location:
    EST, USA
    Principal Component Analysis is one of the most widely used classification algorithms for high-D data.

    This has to be a solid ground.
     
    Apollyon likes this.
  15. farhan_9909

    farhan_9909 Tihar Jail Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2012
    Messages:
    5,895
    Likes Received:
    496
    Location:
    Abbottabad,Bannu
    My friends has repeatedly told me even if indian reaches upto moon or they are confirmed to be the descendent of Quresh or bani israel still dont associate themselves with indians.it is just the name india/indians which sound weird

    Imagine if someone call me Indian...Yukhhhhh..give me feeling of eating cockroach
    yukhiiii

    he also told me when a indian asked him what would you prefer to be called indian or Pig?
    he told me he smiled and said PIG
     
  16. farhan_9909

    farhan_9909 Tihar Jail Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2012
    Messages:
    5,895
    Likes Received:
    496
    Location:
    Abbottabad,Bannu
  17. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2009
    Messages:
    20,305
    Likes Received:
    8,270
    Location:
    011
    There is many a slip betwixt cup and lip — Ishtiaq Ahmed

    To the great credit of the founders of modern India, they did not base its legal and constitutional systems on the Manusmriti. Therefore their democratic experiment truly fascinates me. The caste system is crumbling under the combined impact of industrialisation, urbanisation and democratisation. If the experiment proceeds successfully it will represent the biggest social revolution in South Asia in the last 3,000 years

    Last week, I made a general projection that if the Indian and Pakistani political establishments and power elites continue with friendly overtures and confidence building measures then the hostility between our two states can come to an end in the years ahead and they can start functioning as normal, good neighbours with a mutual stake in each other’s well-being and welfare.

    But isn’t all this just a chimera? Wouldn’t we soon be witnessing the opposite when another round of zero-sum games over the Siachen glacier and water sharing and Kashmir follows? What is particularly promising about the present situation? After all the two ruling classes have played footsie in the past. Just when the liaison was about to be made public they got cold feet and started accusing each other of being a fickle paramour instead.

    I am tempted to suggest that the Americans will exercise their influence on both sides so that they fall into line with the overall geopolitical interests of the only omnipresent superpower in the world. However, such an argument should not be taken too far because I believe both sides can evade compliance with US strategic thinking and planning under one pretext or another. Ultimately the will to build peace must come from within the two establishments.

    I saw recently on an Indian channel, Zee TV, that the price of land and real estate on the Indian side at the Attari border has soared. Some years ago Pakistani brigadiers and generals were said to have bought land on the Wagah side. The result has been a dramatic increase in prices on Pakistani side too. The rumour is that this represents an effort to keep the peace dividend literally in the pockets of those who previously drew capital out of war.

    So, I suppose we who have always believed that peace is good and will benefit even the ordinary people have a reason to be upbeat despite being aware of the hurdles along the way. These will have to be crossed before the peace of the ruling classes becomes a positive gain for the ordinary people.

    Having said this, I must admit that there is no doubt in my mind that apart from the ruling classes and their interests there are ideological forces on both sides which would do everything to keep the two countries at loggerheads. Let me share with you some of my experiences of such people.

    Every week, without fail, I receive emails from fictitious Hindus called Bisvas and Yadav (and some other similar names) — surnames of ordinary Hindu castes who really would have little or nothing against Muslims and Islam — reminding me that my ancestors betrayed Hinduism when they converted to Islam; that we are quislings of foreign invaders.

    Mr Reginald Massey who is familiar with the way the Hindu Right operates is of the opinion that it is probably some Muslim-hating upper caste individual feigning an ordinary identity to indicate that all sections of Hindus hate Muslims. The bottom line is that the idea of India-Pakistan peace is a non-starter because there can be no peace between rational Hindus and emotional Muslims!

    I also receive nasty emails from self-righteous Muslim fundamentalists who call me a Hindu lover and/or an Indian agent. They remind me that Islam came to India to wipe out idolatry and my ancestors must have converted to Islam because it was the better religion and social order.

    When it comes to explaining why my ancestors might have converted to Islam, I think the latter explanation is more convincing. Even a cursory look into the Manusmriti (which the Hindu apologists would like us to believe was never applied all over India) tells me that I am better off as a Muslim than if I were as a Hindu because Jats, Arains, Gujjars and other agriculturists enjoy a better status under Islam and Sikhism than under orthodox Brahminism.

    Additionally, the Arain group, to which I belong, claims Arab extraction. The strongest argument in favour of this claim is that Arains are always Muslims and almost entirely Sunnis as were the early Arabs who came with Muhammad bin Qasim. On the other hand, agricultural castes of Jats, Gujjars and Rajputs are divided into Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs. It is worth mentioning however that some early Arain accounts claim a Surajbansi Rajput origin and some trace their origin to Persia. The Arab-origin claim can be simply a re-orientation towards a (perceived) greater status as conquerors and “original” Muslims. Unfortunately, Arabs view all Pakistanis as dirt — our real and imaginary claims of kinship with them notwithstanding.

    Personally I believe that like the other farming castes of the Punjab and Haryana the Arains are a mix of many ethnies and races. Most are small- and middle-level farmers although there are also some real big landlords around Lahore, Faisalabad and Sahiwal. I can hardly imagine them wanting a return to the Hindu caste order.

    To the great credit of the founders of modern India, they did not base its legal and constitutional systems on the Manusmriti. Therefore their democratic experiment truly fascinates me. Professor Satish Saberwal and Professor Dipankar Gupta, good friends of mine, tell me that the caste system is crumbling under the combined impact of industrialisation, urbanisation and democratisation.

    If the experiment proceeds successfully it will represent the biggest social revolution in South Asia in the last 3,000 years.

    Will the Hindu Right not put up great resistance to it just as it does to friendship with Pakistan? I think it will with all the brute force at its disposal. Currently, the Muslim Right deploys violence to oppose a modern, pluralist democracy in Pakistan. Fortunately the narrow, intolerant and morbid worldviews of both the Hindu Right and the Muslim Right do not represent the vast majority of people on both sides.

    Most emails that I receive from India and Pakistan — from Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians and others — are of the positive type and include all castes (most prominently modern-educated Brahmins) and biradaris. Therefore the hope is that a new South Asia — democratic, pluralist and egalitarian — will materialise. But many subversive plots will be hatched against it before that happens. We should be ready to thwart them.

    Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
     
    maomao likes this.
  18. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2012
    Messages:
    2,654
    Likes Received:
    4,043
    Location:
    New Delhi
    Do you have cockroaches in Pakistan? Khanay ko ghass bhi nahin rahi. Lashon ko rape kartay ho aur phir ussay bhi kha jaatay ho. Yeh hai tumhaari aukaat.
     
  19. farhan_9909

    farhan_9909 Tihar Jail Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2012
    Messages:
    5,895
    Likes Received:
    496
    Location:
    Abbottabad,Bannu
    Sir ji all this happens in india.just google about cases of necrophila in india.

    Hamari Aukaat jaanne k liye you would have to declare yourself non indian and would have to go under 3 weird processes.than only you can know the aukaat of pakistanis

    if your interested in knowing those 3 weird processes than leave a reply
     
  20. farhan_9909

    farhan_9909 Tihar Jail Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2012
    Messages:
    5,895
    Likes Received:
    496
    Location:
    Abbottabad,Bannu
    Posting about the Pakistani punjabis at the moment.

    this certainly prove that Pakistani punjabi are a distinguish race and were never under indians


    Leading Tribes of Punjab and their Origins
     
  21. farhan_9909

    farhan_9909 Tihar Jail Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2012
    Messages:
    5,895
    Likes Received:
    496
    Location:
    Abbottabad,Bannu
    Origin of pashtuns

    Again not from india

    Pashtuns

     

Share This Page