Genetic evidence suggests the origins of Indian caste populations

Singh

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So, you also have that false sense of pride associated with being an indian in india. i suppose it comes with knowing that you need not have been here. we are all egoistic imbeciles afterall.
I sense a tinge of regret in your tone.
 

sesha_maruthi27

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It is quite possible that they are my descendants :D
Pajji, think everyone who are living in present day India are one way or the other are the descendants of Evil Eurasians....

Some even are a mixture of Italian, Indian, Russian mix breed.......:pound::pound::pound:
 

civfanatic

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Not totally related to the topic of the thread, but somewhat relevant to the present discussion over fair skin compared to dark skin.

In the Ajanta cave paintings, we can observe a great diversity of skin colors and physical traits.

More typical dark-skinned Indians:


Dark-skinned guy with a fair-skinned girl:


A quite fair-skinned girl:



Of course, we know hardly anything about the castes or social background of these people. The main thing we can conclude from these paintings is that India, even in ancient times, was very diverse (which should come to no surprise). Also, Buddhists/Jains probably would be more open to intermingling between different castes than orthodox Hindus.
 

pmaitra

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It is the other way round. Diversity shows direction, instead of direction telling about diversity.
More haplotype diversity of a genetic component in location A as compared to B; will show that the component in A is older than B.
Shared and Unique Components of Human Population Structure and Genome-Wide Signals of Positive Selection in South Asia
Thank you for sharing this interesting article.

So far, I have managed to read only a third of the article. I will continue to read it, and I will probably ask some questions. Thanks again!
 

Manas7

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Diverse Indian genetic profile is established long before hindu caste system came in to existence.
 

TrueSpirit

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The Mahabharata in its current form only dates to the Gupta period at the earliest.
Yes, quite close regarding the literal/scripted form.
Regarding the Oral Tradition: You are way off-the mark. It dates back to antiquity but the broadest consensus is between 5000 BC - 3500 BC-ish era.
Oral tradition would precede script formation in all cases. Is this too hard to understand...?
 

Singh

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Utterly stupid.
Why ?

Portuguese influence cannot be discounted when we are talking about Konkan Brahmins.

How do explain some hazel eyed fair complexioned brahmin in e,g Odisa or Bengal and down south ??
I have met Brahmins from Orissa, Bengal, Kerala and Tamil Nadu they don't look anything like those Konkan Brahmins.

Are you talking about a specific community ?
Or are you saying that all Brahmins from EAst and South India look European ?

Is it the British this time ??:rolleyes:
It could be, Could it not ?
 

MAYURA

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Why ?

Portuguese influence cannot be discounted when we are talking about Konkan Brahmins.

I can not discount iranian influence in case of sikh gurus too.

the brahmins of that time hated to touch any white men like portuguese and you are calling them offspring of portuguese.

The konkan and chitapavan brahmins ( mugdha godse types ) are brahmins from ancient nagarhara which was an indo aryan city till 1000 ad and when ghazanavi destroyed the shahi dynasty
, they fled from there to maharashtra.

nagarhara is modern jalala bad and compare the people of jalalbad with konkani brahmins and you would find the similarity though west asian features are more prominent in case of former.

that is why I say that those looking for british, european and scythians for modern day brahmin, kshatriyas are utter crackpots like PN Oak with the only difference that they tend to be on opposite side.
 

MAYURA

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The main thing we can conclude from these paintings is that India, even in ancient times, was very diverse (which should come to no surprise). Also, Buddhists/Jains probably would be more open to intermingling between different castes than orthodox Hindus.
Are you aware of the fact that no bodhisattva is shown to have born in dalit houses?

are you aware of the fact that buddhist sanghas did not admit modern day STs?


the buddhist and jain were as much as averse to mixing as hindus though modern day revisionists deny this.


I can show you many tamil saints born in untouchable castes but can you show me buddhist acharyas born in untouchable castes?
 

MAYURA

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Diverse Indian genetic profile is established long before hindu caste system came in to existence.
correct and it has remained since then.

No major genetic or anthropological changes have occured in india since 2000 bc.
 

parijataka

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Why ?
Portuguese influence cannot be discounted when we are talking about Konkan Brahmins.

I have met Brahmins from Orissa, Bengal, Kerala and Tamil Nadu they don't look anything like those Konkan Brahmins.

Are you talking about a specific community ?
Or are you saying that all Brahmins from EAst and South India look European ?

It could be, Could it not ?
No, it could not. Any Brahmin marrying, let alone fornicating, with a Portuguese would be immediately ex-communicated. Some reasons for ex-communication among Brahmins would be eating with a mleccha (includes Portuguese), eating beef, travelling outside Aryavarta, etc.

Perhaps among Punjabis it was normal to marry outside the community was normal - definitely not in caste ridden S W India.
 

Das ka das

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It is well known that Chitapavan Brahmins have Afghan ancestry but thanks to the religion of peace soldiers, were forced to flee their native land. I don't understand how @Singh got this hairbrained theory of Chitapavans willingly mingling with Portugese. Are you even aware of the dangers of losing caste during those times? Hell even in Gujarat today if one is from a Brahmin/Bania/Patel community and marries a Muslim he will be naath bar (loosing one's caste).
 
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Singh

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I can not discount iranian influence in case of sikh gurus too.
Nice attempt at trolling.

the brahmins of that time hated to touch any white men like portuguese
Ok.

and you are calling them offspring of portuguese.
I am not calling them, it is possible that they are. I could be wrong, you could be wrong, we both could be wrong.

The konkan and chitapavan brahmins ( mugdha godse types ) are brahmins from ancient nagarhara which was an indo aryan city till 1000 ad and when ghazanavi destroyed the shahi dynasty , they fled from there to maharashtra.
nagarhara is modern jalala bad and compare the people of jalalbad with konkani brahmins and you would find the similarity though west asian features are more prominent in case of former.
I haven't heard this tale of Konkani Brahmins inhabiting Jalalabad, and fleeing and settling in Maharashtra a millennium ago. It is possible it happened, its possible it didn't happen.

I think simple DNA testing of Portugese, Afghans, and Konkani Brahmins will be proof enough.

So to add
1. Either there was spontaneous genetic mutation - highly unlikely
2. There were originally Afghan and have been settled in isolated community for a thousand years - possible
3. Foreign genetic mixing - possible

that is why I say that those looking for british, european and scythians for modern day brahmin, kshatriyas are utter crackpots like PN Oak with the only difference that they tend to be on opposite side.
I cannot turn a blind eye to science, hypothesis can be discounted but facts, c'mon.
 

Singh

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correct and it has remained since then.
No major genetic or anthropological changes have occured in india since 2000 bc.
You could not be more wrong. Scientific Evidence is to the contrary.
 

Singh

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No, it could not. Any Brahmin marrying, let alone fornicating, with a Portuguese would be immediately ex-communicated. Some reasons for ex-communication among Brahmins would be eating with a mleccha (includes Portuguese), eating beef, travelling outside Aryavarta, etc.
Obviously there is no question of there being exception to the rules and customs.

Perhaps among Punjabis it was normal to marry outside the community was normal - definitely not in caste ridden S W India.
Apparently, if @MAYURA is to be believed, these Brahmins were from NW India, next to Punjab.
 
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parijataka

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Obviously there is no question of there being exception to the rules and customs.



Apparently, if @MAYURA is to be believed, these Brahmins were from NW India, next to Punjab.
You are proposing a situation that would not be an exception but an impossibility @Singh- i.e. Brahmins inter marrying with Portuguese in Goa.

AFAIK inter marriage between Hindus and Christians usually ended in either in the Hindu getting converted or one or other of the lovers being killed in the past. Now of course people are more broad minded. BTW I am Goan Hindu.
 
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Iamanidiot

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@Singh do you thin the portugese had sown wild oats among the bious along the Maharasthrian coast...very much in the realm of possibility reminds me of an old dravidian joke
 
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