India US Relations

garg_bharat

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What pt is buying F-18 if it gets jammed against war with Pak. It will dent conventional capability a lot.

China might have sold critical tech to Pak but Pak is artificial creation of Brits and now used by their successor US in geo-political war. Don't expect US to ditch them in times of need. US is still funding them even after discovering that Pak was hiding Osama. There is more to this relationship than meets the eye.
Pakistan's story is more complicated than mere UK creation. There was deep distrust between Hindus and Muslims due to which a single State was difficult.

I have met people who have argued that creation of Pakistan is very good for India. Hindus lack unity and Pakistan has been one of strong reasons for whatever Hindu unity exists today.

USA can actually restrict Pakis and control Paki actions. Without USA in Pakistan, China is an absolute black hole. We have little information about China's intentions. China is one of most opaque countries.

India can always carry a locally produced jammer on F-18 if it fears it will be jammed by Paki fighters. Though I doubt this will happen. I am in favour of buying a Mig-29 based jamming aircraft. IAF should give it consideration.
 
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Bahamut

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There was deep distrust between Hindus and Muslims due to which a single State was difficult.
It was artificial , Hindu and Muslim fraught alike to gain independence ,had not been for the unholy alliances between Congress and Jinnah ,there would have been no Pakistan. It was from the start made to be a trouble to Indian so that India cannot focus outside it immediate neighborhood and consume for resource which other wise could have been used to dominate IOR.
 

garg_bharat

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There is a view that there is no point proceeding with AMCA until LCA Mark-2 becomes operational. There are still many tech areas where we are lacking in 4th gen. Aiming for 5th gen is a jump that our tech-industrial complex may not be able to deliver.

We need to fill the gap for next 15 years. I believe this gap will be filled by one western fighter line and FGFA.
 

garg_bharat

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It was artificial , Hindu and Muslim fraught alike to gain independence ,had not been for the unholy alliances between Congress and Jinnah ,there would have been no Pakistan. It was from the start made to be a trouble to Indian so that India cannot focus outside it immediate neighborhood and consume for resource which other wise could have been used to dominate IOR.
No it was not artificial. Even today you will find that Hindus are absolutely uncomfortable living in a Muslim-majority town.

If India has difficulty focussing outside South Asia, that is due to socialism brought about by Nehru and Gandhi family. It is bottlenecks in production that hamper India.
 

Panjab47

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@garg_bharat @Bahamut what muslim fighting independence, even your Gandhi Ji admits it was Sardars who then slaughtered muslims.

Keep living in fantasy world, for us

Guru Sahib has already given command to destroy the turk. You've given them two nuclear armed bases to operate out of & allow them to mingle among you, growing in number & stealing your women.
 

Bahamut

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@garg_bharat @Bahamut what muslim fighting independence, even your Gandhi Ji admits it was Sardars who then slaughtered muslims.

Keep living in fantasy world, for us

Guru Sahib has already given command to destroy the turk. You've given them two nuclear armed bases to operate out of & allow them to mingle among you, growing in number & stealing your women.
I am a Sikh too and know the sacrifices our guru made to protect our culture from moguls .But if India was undivided then we would have access to more resources.A good portion of our agriculture land of Punjab and one of our major river Indus is now is enemy area.We have no border with oil rich gulf or central Asia both which are crucial for our resources.We also lost major Port city like Karachi. Like it or not India,Pakistan,Nepal,Bhutan,Bangladesh are were part of India and by losing them we lost lots of resources .
 

garg_bharat

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@garg_bharat @Bahamut what muslim fighting independence, even your Gandhi Ji admits it was Sardars who then slaughtered muslims.

Keep living in fantasy world, for us

Guru Sahib has already given command to destroy the turk. You've given them two nuclear armed bases to operate out of & allow them to mingle among you, growing in number & stealing your women.
You need strength to fight a strong enemy. It takes time for a nation to gain strength.

May be it was better that the nation stayed united. But whatever it is today, is not bad, considering the situation before independence. The work is to make it strong. Pakistan is bound to fail sooner or later. So we must be ready to absorb our land whenever opportunity comes.
 

ezsasa

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By all means US and India can partner, no issues.

We have to understand that American establishment is a face for a particular lobby or group of lobbyists. American foreign policy is purely dependant on the prevailing lobby at Washington at any point in time. Lobbyists Lobby for whoever pays the most money, as do American politicians for a favourable domestic deals.

Let's assume current Indian govt will strike a balance between india's and American interests. What if 15 years from now UPA like govt ends up in power in Delhi again.

Are we sure future Indian Govt's won't be pushed over. Last time we had a pushover govt we had mass Christian conversions all over india.

Let's not forget, all American Govt's past present and future are master manipulators to achieve their goals. All it takes is a ambitious pentagon bureaucrat to make the right noises for all the wrong reasons particularly detrimental to our future goals(if any). We should not be looking at defence angle, take a holistic view.

I may be wrong, feel free to correct me.
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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By all means US and India can partner, no issues.

We have to understand that American establishment is a face for a particular lobby or group of lobbyists. American foreign policy is purely dependant on the prevailing lobby at Washington at any point in time. Lobbyists Lobby for whoever pays the most money, as do American politicians for a favourable domestic deals.

Let's assume current Indian govt will strike a balance between india's and American interests. What if 15 years from now UPA like govt ends up in power in Delhi again.

Are we sure future Indian Govt's won't be pushed over. Last time we had a pushover govt we had mass Christian conversions all over india.

Let's not forget, all American Govt's past present and future are master manipulators to achieve their goals. All it takes is a ambitious pentagon bureaucrat to make the right noises for all the wrong reasons particularly detrimental to our future goals(if any). We should not be looking at defence angle, take a holistic view.

I may be wrong, feel free to correct me.
If you are weak you will be pushed around no matter whether you align with US or not!!
 

Kharavela

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But there is a nitpick, the refueling agreement was actually by I. K. Gujral - The man who betrayed RAW agents in Pakistan.
Inder Kumar Gujral (4 December 1919 – 30 November 2012) was an Indian politician who served as the Prime Minister of India from 21st April 1997 to 19th March 1998.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I._K._Gujral

Chandra Shekhar Singh (1 July 1927 – 8 July 2007) was an Indian politician. He was prime Minister of India for seven months, from 10 November 1990 to 21 June 1991.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandra_Shekhar

Those refuelling started on 9th of January 1991 , ( two aircrafts per day ) and it lasted up to the second week of war , ( in total about 18 days of refuelling ).

War Dates are here for you :
Operation Desert Shield (2 August 1990 – 17 January 1991)
Operation Desert Storm (17 January 1991 – 28 February 1991)
@Yumdoot Please see the dates.
 

Kharavela

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It's like what Roosevelt said " being enemy of America is dangerous, being friend of America is fatal".
A small correction:
“It may be dangerous to be America’s enemy, but to be America’s friend is fatal”
Henry Kissinger said in November 1968, after Richard Nixon was elected U.S. president but before he took office: “Nixon should be told that it is probably an objective of Clifford to depose Thieu (South Vietnamese president Nguyen Van Thieu—ed.) before Nixon is inaugurated. Word should be gotten to Nixon that if Thieu meets the same fate as Diem, the word will go out to the nations of the world that it may be dangerous to be America’s enemy, but to be America’s friend is fatal.”

The quotation referred to America’s role in Vietnam. If America doesn’t stand by its friends and allies, the quotation explains, then it might ultimately be less dangerous to be America’s enemy.
 

garg_bharat

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I think India is neither an enemy nor a friend of USA. Buying arms is not a sign of true friendship.

Kissinger's quotation should be applied to Pakistan.

I would prefer a workable relationship with China and so avoid a conflict with china. But the problem is Chinese have already decided that they are better than everybody else.

So I think a detente with China may not work. If we have to prepare for a conflict in which China is an adversary, then we need to pull all stops and focus massively on building our defence capacity.

There is nothing wrong in taking help of anybody to win, even an enemy if the enemy can be manipulated.

We must focus on winning, not counting the paving stones on the way.
 
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Yumdoot

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Inder Kumar Gujral (4 December 1919 – 30 November 2012) was an Indian politician who served as the Prime Minister of India from 21st April 1997 to 19th March 1998.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I._K._Gujral

Chandra Shekhar Singh (1 July 1927 – 8 July 2007) was an Indian politician. He was prime Minister of India for seven months, from 10 November 1990 to 21 June 1991.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandra_Shekhar

@Yumdoot Please see the dates.
No Kharavela I am talking about the original gulf war started by Bush Senior, flush out the CIA win in the Cold War.

Follows some of the reasons for why a nationalist simply must remain beware of certain types of people who hide their sense of self preservation and their desires for western sensibilities, even at the risk of damaging India.

1) V. P. Singh (the Kejriwal of 90s) got India compromised by giving out refueling rights. That time I. K. Gujral was his foreign minister. The MEA under I. K. Gujral was so strong that I. K. Gujral could even take the PMO babus to task. And it was MEA that hid the fact of refueling rights.

2) Chandra Sekhar replaced V. P. Singh and he was busy in distributing petrol pumps. Again the refueling rights were kept hidden from India.

3) BJP played along, most likely because they thought ambivalence would not get noticed but equally probably because they didn't know enough of anything except the deep desire to win elections after the drubbing of 1984. Just like today a bunch of dumbos in MEA think they are doing India a favour by gifting out extra-territorial rights over India. In any case if you noticed Zia Ul Huq died (!) on 17 August 1988 and Rajiv Gandhi was assassinated: May 21, 1991. Separated by a mere 3 years exactly during the time the Warsaw Pact was losing. So I would not hold it against any of the BJP guys (or even others) should they decide that discretion is the better part of valour :p. But in any case facts can always be stated as they are.

4) Those days Rajiv Gandhi used to be the real nationalist caring for national goals, albeit without much skills and focus (after all he is the father of Rahul Gandhi and an undeserving son of a successful woman, what could anybody expect off him). But despite his difficulty in managing affairs he used to be too dangerous for US-Norway-LTTE cabal (so you know what that lead to).






After this you already know about the Gujral Doctrine and how other ideas of similar kind, lead to the present condition of India.
 

Kharavela

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China Using Pak to Slow Down India: Former US Ambassador to India Robert Blackwill

Former US Ambassador to India Robert Blackwill has said China is using Pakistan to keep India engaged and block its economic growth. In a lecture in the national capital, he said Pakistan keeps lying to the US and that the US keeps falling for their lies. He also described the US policy vis a vis Pakistan as “bizarre.”This is significant coming from a member of the US establishment and that too at a time US Defence Ashton Carter is visiting India. Earlier in April, China blocked the move by India to get Pakistan-based terror outfit Jaish-e-Mohammad(JeM) chief Masood Azhar designated as international terrorist, saying the case “did not meet the requirements” of the Security Council. The submission was backed with strong evidence of the outfit’s terror activities and its role in the Pathankot attack that killed seven Indian military personnel.
Source: http://idrw.org/china-using-pak-to-slow-down-india-former-us-envoy/
 

WolfPack86

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India-US defence partnership: Making haste, slowly
There is good news and bad news from the agreement ‘in principle’ between New Delhi and Washington this week on signing the Logistics Support Agreement (LSA), now re-designated as the Logistics Exchange Memorandum of Agreement (LEMOA).

The good news is that the Narendra Modi government has the political self-confidence to sign an apparently controversial agreement with the United States. The bad news is that India, as a collective, has taken more than a decade to decide ‘in principle’ on a fairly straightforward agreement with America.


The LSA would help Indian armed forces, especially its navy, to operate far from subcontinental shores at a moment when New Delhi has to secure its widely dispersed interests in the Indian Ocean and beyond. Much like the historic civil nuclear initiative, New Delhi has had a terrible time wrapping it up.

It’s a pity that the Indian political class, the bureaucracy, the strategic community, the commentariat and the media — have turned the debate on the LSA, which is so patently in Indian self interest, into an agonising one about the exalted concepts of ‘non-alignment’ and ‘strategic autonomy’.

India now is the world’s seventh largest economy (nominal terms) and third largest in PPP terms. It is also the sixth largest spender on defence, and owns the third largest armed forces and a small nuclear arsenal. None of this heft seems to reflect in the way India debates its relationship with the United States.

The Indian discourse on the LSA was never about its technical details. Like the historic nuclear deal, it was essentially about the lingering Indian distrust of America. There would be little public interest or private anxiety in New Delhi if it were negotiating similar agreements with, say, Russia, France or Japan. Although the LSA has drawn very special attention in New Delhi, the United States has scores of these arrangements, known as Acquisition and Cross Servicing Agreements (ACSA), with allies, non-allies and international organisations. A typical ACSA defines the objective as “reciprocal provision of logistic support, supplies, and services to the military forces of one Party by the other Party in return for either cash payment or the reciprocal provision of logistic support, supplies and services to the military forces of the other Party”. Many of these agreements explicitly prohibit exchange of weapons and other combat equipment. The agreement enables easy exchange of oil, water, food, billeting arrangements, repair and servicing facilities etc. during joint exercises and other pre-specified contingencies.
Like so many other creative foreign policy initiatives in our time — to reframe the border talks with China, secret negotiations on Kashmir with Pakistan, and the civil nuclear initiative with the US — the decision to expand defence cooperation with America came in the early years of the UPA government (2004-05). The UPA government failed to pursue any of these initiatives to their logical conclusion. Ideological self-doubt and lack of political leadership saw New Delhi squander extraordinary opportunities that came its way during the time the UPA was in power. After Pranab Mukherjee vacated the Defence Ministry in favour of A K Antony in 2006, the prospects for expansive defence cooperation with the US identified in the 2005 framework agreement steadily evaporated. If Antony deliberately limited the defence partnership with America, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh was unwilling to overrule him. It was in this extended tenure of Antony in the Defence Ministry (2006-14) that the issues involved with the LSA were allowed to be defined in terms of an “alliance” with America and a “strategic embrace” of the United States.
The proposition that the US wants to “entrap” India into a “military alliance” has always been a fanciful one. For the US, military alliances are serious business. They involve major legal, political, military and financial commitments that the United States has been generally unwilling to make since the height of the Cold war. In fact, the current political mood in the US is about retrenchment, and not making new alliances. The US is certainly interested in stronger military ties with India. It is up to New Delhi to decide on the extent of convergence with Washington, and the terms under which it would cooperate. No one can compel India into signing agreements that it does not want. The tragedy, however, was that the UPA government, instead of judging the issues of military cooperation with the US on merits, went into a funk. The defensiveness was reflected in the fact that New Delhi began to reject drafts of LSA that the Defence Ministry itself had proposed. Put simply, the US was indeed open to signing the LSA version drafted by India. But New Delhi, under UPA, would not accept ‘yes’ for an answer from Washington. Returning to the good news, the NDA government chose to take a fresh look at the broader partnership with the United States. Modi moved decisively to resolve the outstanding issues on the civil nuclear initiative. The NDA government also renewed the 2005 defence framework cooperation for another 10 years. It reopened the negotiations on the LSA, and other so-called foundational agreements. The agreement in principle has come after New Delhi has satisfied itself that all its concerns have been met. The Modi government has concluded, just like the UPA government in 2005, that security cooperation with the US would be an important part of improving India’s strategic salience in regional and global affairs. But unlike the UPA, the NDA government is less inhibited and more confident that it can deepen defence ties with the US on India’s own terms. Modi’s most important contribution, however, may lie in turning the UPA government’s approach to major powers on its head. UPA justified its reluctance to deepen defence ties with the US by claiming that China would be upset. Not moving forward with America during last few years, Modi knows, has not yielded much gains from China on issues of concern to India — whether it is terrorism emanating from Pakistan, or support for India’s membership of the Nuclear Suppliers Group. Nor does China defer to New Delhi’s sensitivities and limit its military engagement with Pakistan and other neighbours of India.
Modi recognises that it is best to deal with both America and China on the basis of self interest and by creating leverages. There is no question now of framing New Delhi’s relations with Beijing and Washington either on the basis of neutrality or equidistance. The defining question for New Delhi now is a simple one: “What’s in it for me?” While Modi is asking the right questions, he finds it hard to move New Delhi at a faster pace. That’s probably why we have an agreement ‘in principle’, and not the LSA closure. Even as it draws close to the US in the defence arena, the NDA government has gone much farther than the UPA in opening up India for Chinese economic investments. No PM before him has battled the system in New Delhi for liberalising the visa regime for the Chinese.
Some purists in New Delhi might not recognise their versions of ‘non-alignment’ in India’s new economic pragmatism and muscular geopolitics. But India’s non-alignment was always like the tabula rasa that could accommodate as diverse initiatives as Nehru’s quest for a military partnership with America after the Chinese attack in 1962, Indira Gandhi’s Treaty of Peace and Friendship with the Soviet Union in 1971 as Nixon and Mao warmed up to each other, and the more recent claims for New Delhi as a ‘net security provider’ in the Indo-Pacific.
http://indianexpress.com/article/explained/india-us-defence-partnership-making-haste-slowly/
 

Panjab47

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Fuck America Fuck Lsa Fuck Cismoa

@SJha1618: The ultimate agenda of LEMOA, CISMOA et al is to find a way into India's nuclear C&C. Also to slowdown the nuclear deterrent buildup.
 

Immanuel

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Bush Jr. has been the most successful & India- friendly President in the recent past. People initially thought him to be dumb, but his macho, no-nonsense ways were endearing. Bush was also quite strict with Pak. Trump seems to be in his mould and he is also a Republican is a pleasant coincidence. On the other hand we had to tolerate coward, anti-India, sanction-imposing Bill Clinton and lackluster, nincompoop Obama. Hillary seems no better. Then why should NRIs support Dems?
Agree, Trump is the best candidate for them as well as for us, Clintard is career criminal, even Bernie is better.


Bush is a highly underated president, forget the Iraq debacle and he might just be the most kick ass humanitarian US president in recent times. NRIs support Trump mostly.
 

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