Future indian navy by 2020

Parthy

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Indian Navy to acquire three aircraft carriers in 5-7 years: Defence Minister Antony

The Indian Navy has been acquiring sea-based assets for littoral warfare, including purchase of landing platform docks and long-range maritime surveillance aircraft, and plans to acquire at least three aircraft carriers in the next five to seven years, in addition to other assets.


An Indian Defence Ministry news release said quoting Defence Minister A.K. Antony who asked the Navy to increase Navy-to-Navy contact with the littoral countries of the Indian Ocean. This move comes five years after the service incorporated preparation for littoral warfare as part of the Navy's long term doctrine.

Addressing top Indian military commanders at a meeting in Delhi on Oct. 27, Antony said, "The complex maritime security environment in our region requires the Navy to maintain a state of perpetual readiness operationally. You must factor in the need to be ready at all times prominently, while planning for the future. At the same time, we need to maintain, and even increase, the momentum of our Navy-to-Navy contact with the littoral countries of the Indian Ocean. Such contacts strengthen professional ties and mutual trust, and streamline interoperability issues." Antony said New Delhi is committed to the continued deployment of ships and aircraft to improve surveillance off the coast of Maldives and Seychelles to ensure maritime security from piracy.

Antony said, "We also need to engage like-minded African states in the Western Indian Ocean Region, such as Mozambique, South Africa, Tanzania and Kenya, to enhance our strengths and contribute to peace and stability, not only in the Asia-Pacific region, but also in the entire Indian Ocean Region".

http://www.defenseworld.net/go/defe...arriers in 5-7 years: Defence Minister Antony

This counts hmm... In 5-7 years i.e. around 2017. and taking delay's into considersation, say a 3 years for delay. Then by 2020 we will have 3 AC Battle group by sure.. Thats interesting!!
 

Parthy

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UK seeks buyers for axed Harriers

Britain is to hang a "for sale" sign on its decommissioned fleet of Harrier jump-jets as ministers attempt to find buyers for aircraft they can no longer afford to fly.

India and the US are the two most promising markets for more than 50 of the most up-to-date Harriers, which will otherwise be consigned to the scrap-yard or museum.

Peter Luff, defence procurement minister, told the Financial Times that some of the kit axed in the defence review – including the Nimrod reconnaissance aircraft – might still find a home abroad.

"I don't want to speculate about the market," he said. "I don't want them to feel as if they are being bounced. But we are looking at the options quite carefully at the moment. There are overseas markets, particularly for the Harrier."

Such a sale, even at knock-down prices, would be a boon for the Ministry of Defence as it attempts to meet a steep target for annual savings this year.

However, defence officials and industry figures acknowledge that there are limited prospects of a quick sale, given the alternatives on the market and the handful of nations with experience of flying Harriers.

The likelihood of finding an outlet for the Nimrod MRA4 spy aircraft is even slimmer, not least because the production is still incomplete, over budget and running nine years late.

Some surveillance technology may also be too sensitive to export.

Cancelling the Harrier, which played a role in the recapture of the Falklands in 1982, emerged as a defining decision of the defence review, leaving Britain with no planes to fly off its aircraft carriers for a decade.

The MoD had invested heavily in upgrading the avionics of the jets, which could still be in service in the mid-2020s.

However, given the choice of saving one fast jet type, ministers chose to retain the more capable land-based Tornado.

India is the most likely purchaser of the Harrier. It bought about 30 Sea Harriers, an earlier variant, in the 1980s.

Some are still used to fly off its UK-made aircraft carrier the INS Viraat, which once saw battle as HMS Hermes, the Royal Navy flagship during the Falklands conflict.

The US could buy the Harriers to supplement its fleet used by the Marine Corps

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e40ac0ca-e53c-11df-8e0d-00144feabdc0.html
 

Armand2REP

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We sure are more than able to pay for it, brother ! The MMRCA deal is worth 10 Billion USD, the Navy's sub deal is going to have price a price tag of around 12 billion USD ! So there you see, two deals for a total of of 22 billion dollars ! Who else can match that kind of spending power, other than than Chinese ? You ?
India alloted $8.5 billion in the equipment budget last year. $1.2 billion was left unspent. Similar to the last three years. GoI has yet to ink most of their big deals, when it comes time to spend they become paralyzed. MRCA has yet to select a short-list, sub deal hasn't even sent out an RFP, PAK FGFA is still bending in the breeze, artillery still rusting, C-130 deal snagged, Mirages still waiting, unwilling to pay for Scorpene electronics, canceled LUH, canceled tankers...ect. France spent $24.3 billion on its equipment budget last year and the same this year. India has a long way to go to catch up to our spending. Like decades...
 

Vladimir79

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India alloted $8.5 billion in the equipment budget last year. $1.2 billion was left unspent. Similar to the last three years. GoI has yet to ink most of their big deals, when it comes time to spend they become paralyzed. MRCA has yet to select a short-list, sub deal hasn't even sent out an RFP, PAK FGFA is still bending in the breeze, artillery still rusting, C-130 deal snagged, Mirages still waiting, unwilling to pay for Scorpene electronics, canceled LUH, canceled tankers...ect. France spent $24.3 billion on its equipment budget last year and the same this year. India has a long way to go to catch up to our spending. Like decades...
FinMin doesn't like getting hosed is more like it rather than paralyzed. The Gorshkov deal is a perfect example, we screwed up and made India pay for it. They had every right to criticize and take their time. When it comes to procuring Russian kit, their wallets are quite open because it is a bargain with heavy ToT. Maybe if the West would lower prices and increase ToT, FinMin would be more willing to show you some love. xaxa
 

Tshering22

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India is the most likely purchaser of the Harrier. It bought about 30 Sea Harriers, an earlier variant, in the 1980s.
Very unlikely since we've had a lot of trouble mastering the jet that even RN pilots claimed was a pain to learn and master. I think the axed Harriers can be sold to possibly Sri Lanka who according to Pakistan Defence Forum is looking for replacements of its old fighters. We've already been using the MiG-29K training programme and getting another batch of Harriers means more cumbersome training and more pilots.
 

Tshering22

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France spent $24.3 billion on its equipment budget last year and the same this year. India has a long way to go to catch up to our spending. Like decades...
Arman, I quite agree that MOD and finmin get really slow and lethargic during executing a deal but that is also partly because IAF and IN earlier never urged them to speed up. We've a very heavy red tape bureaucratic structure meaning that any acquisition is a very complicated process that was only reformed to make it simple last year. Now before this liberalization and easying up of procurement and acquisition process takes effect, it will take at least coming 2-4 years before any significant speeding up is seen.

Besides, our focus is not to be a worldwide heavy spender but to get maximum from existing amounts of budget that we have. For example, if we were to buy a carrier right off the shelf from USA or Britain or even France, the average price of the carrier say of 40,000+ tonne class would be around $3-5 billion, not to mention a flurry of string-binding agreements have to be signed (In case of USA) that ensures that despite we part with our billions, US still controls our carriers more than we do. Now compare this to the recent indigenous carrier programme that's going on in India. The Vikrant II class of 42,000 tonne class carrier would cost around $1.5 billion, meaning that if we are able to fit in $ 5 billion in our total defence budget, we could practically get almost 3 carriers with that money.

Since we're not aspirant of policing the world about toeing our policies, our defence budget and doctrine of using it is very different that most countries including Western analysts mistake often to be going around the lines of Chinese world domination plan. India's chief concern are few things in future:

1) Control of Indian Ocean almost completely (not as a part of our territory alone) and protect trading ships that use the waters;

2) Providing protection to countries that have protectorate agreement with us such as Maldives, Mauritius, Bhutan and possibly Nepal in future, who if in trouble from a threat directly affect us.

3) Making sure that our sovereign territories that are disputed by aggressive enemy states, are accepted and respected as integral part of Indian Republic that includes Pakistan Occupied Kashmir and China's illegitimate claim for the eastern state of Arunachal Pradesh and its illegal occupation of 19,000 sq. Km of Indian territory of Kashmir and Shaksam Valley that was illegally acceded by Pakistani dictators as a sign of allegiance to China in 1963.

4) Eliminating Islamic terrorism and fundamentalism and eradication of religious fundamentalism by extremist Christian bodies in northeastern India against indigenous people that is steadily gaining grounds even within India in states like Kerala, Assam, Bengal and Meghalaya due to Left-Liberal vote hungry corrupt politicians.

5) Gaining economic, financial and political influence in Southeast countries, that have had millenia of Indian cultural and trade influence and to re-consolidate our position in the South and Southeast Asia.


If India is able to take care of these 5 points, we're quite content as "ONE OF THE WORLD POWERS" rather than "WE INTEND TO RULE THE WORLD".
 

Parthy

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Very unlikely since we've had a lot of trouble mastering the jet that even RN pilots claimed was a pain to learn and master. I think the axed Harriers can be sold to possibly Sri Lanka who according to Pakistan Defence Forum is looking for replacements of its old fighters. We've already been using the MiG-29K training programme and getting another batch of Harriers means more cumbersome training and more pilots.
I donno why US and Britain seeing Indian Defense market as second-hand market.. Looking to Dump the garbages into our hands.. First they gave clearance for US Mine sweeper for sale.. then Reports changed it showing as it was cleared for sale to India.. And now Britain with Harriers...
 

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India alloted $8.5 billion in the equipment budget last year. $1.2 billion was left unspent. Similar to the last three years. GoI has yet to ink most of their big deals, when it comes time to spend they become paralyzed. MRCA has yet to select a short-list, sub deal hasn't even sent out an RFP, PAK FGFA is still bending in the breeze, artillery still rusting, C-130 deal snagged, Mirages still waiting, unwilling to pay for Scorpene electronics, canceled LUH, canceled tankers...ect. France spent $24.3 billion on its equipment budget last year and the same this year. India has a long way to go to catch up to our spending. Like decades...
Oh yeah ! What if the two deals go through, i.e. MMRCA and the sub deal within the next five years ?? That almost matches your defense spending, doesn't it ! You keep overlooking the fact that we will overtake all European economies in the next years in terms of our capabilities, and rightfully take our place as the world's third biggest economy after US and China. And yeah, the GOI doesn't get paralyzed when it comes to spending, it gets shocked by the acts of swindlers like your government, who jack up prices midway, just to keep the GOI on its toes ! So you can keep dreaming, we will crack your defense budget in less than a decade !
 

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Oh yeah ! What if the two deals go through, i.e. MMRCA and the sub deal within the next five years ?? That almost matches your defense spending, doesn't it ! You keep overlooking the fact that we will overtake all European economies in the next years in terms of our capabilities, and rightfully take our place as the world's third biggest economy after US and China. And yeah, the GOI doesn't get paralyzed when it comes to spending, it gets shocked by the acts of swindlers like your government, who jack up prices midway, just to keep the GOI on its toes ! So you can keep dreaming, we will crack your defense budget in less than a decade !
What if they do? $24 billion worth of contracts spread out over 10 years is only $2.4 billion a year. Did you think they pay it all in one lump sum? France spends $24 billion EVERY year. You keep overlooking the fact that France has a $3 trillion economy that is growing at 2% average, when you hit $3 trillion in 2025 France will be at $4 trillion. It will be 2030 at 8% growth before India will overtake France. Can India sustain 8% growth over the next 20 years? 2010 inflation will average 13% in India but only 1.7% in France. The recipe for India's rise is not yet clear. At the very least it will take 2 decades.
 

Vladimir79

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The problem for Indian procurement is the massive size of its manpower. It has to provide social welfare for 1.3 million active forces as well as funding 1.15 million reserves. Out of $32 billion, it only has enough money for $8 billion in equipment which is 25%. France is spending almost 50% of its budget on procurement which is quite high, but have to cut many paid personnel to be able to afford it. France will be left with a high technology military, but very small. India doesn't have that luxury with Pakistan and China threatening her borders. Commitment to high technology forces for 1.3 million men would require half a US level of defense spending which is impossible. India will have to select which sections of the military to make current and which to leave at a lesser level of technology. Priority now is navy and air force, same as it is in Russia.
 

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The problem for Indian procurement is the massive size of its manpower. It has to provide social welfare for 1.3 million active forces as well as funding 1.15 million reserves. Out of $32 billion, it only has enough money for $8 billion in equipment which is 25%. France is spending almost 50% of its budget on procurement which is quite high, but have to cut many paid personnel to be able to afford it. France will be left with a high technology military, but very small. India doesn't have that luxury with Pakistan and China threatening her borders. Commitment to high technology forces for 1.3 million men would require half a US level of defense spending which is impossible. India will have to select which sections of the military to make current and which to leave at a lesser level of technology. Priority now is navy and air force, same as it is in Russia.
By most estimates, India's PPP equivalent of military spending is around $100 billion. The $32 billion figure is only in nominal terms,

While the nominal figures are more useful when calculating Indian arms imports and procurement, the purchasing power figure is more useful when calculating internal transactions, salaries and welfare benefits, etc.
 

Vladimir79

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All very true. Speaking to PPP, the CPI inflation effecting India will make it very hard for the equipment budget to surpass its 25% figure. Wages will have to be raised in large amounts to keep pace with it and that equivalent will come to match nominal figures rapidly. One of the effects of rapidly growing wages is increased expenditure on personnel.
 

Tshering22

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^^ Exactly. The point is we cannot expect a China like rise because our economic structure and structure of spending is very different. While Chinese spending is almost 3 times our defence budget, so is their economy size as compared to ours. We are progressing at a much slower rate while we've to handle 2 threats of which one is a fragile economy with excellent terrorist infrastructure and nuclear armed and another one who's absolutist and expansionist and has no hesitation to claim foreign territory as theirs.

This means we definitely need numbers and cannot sacrifice either that or technology. Nuclear deterrence is last which no sane country chooses to use and lose the card and using nuclear weapons now would mean bringing WW3 early. So yes the as you said, IAF and IN are getting considerable share as we have to bank more on quality to outdo our Chinese than quantity.
 

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What if they do? $24 billion worth of contracts spread out over 10 years is only $2.4 billion a year. Did you think they pay it all in one lump sum? France spends $24 billion EVERY year. You keep overlooking the fact that France has a $3 trillion economy that is growing at 2% average, when you hit $3 trillion in 2025 France will be at $4 trillion. It will be 2030 at 8% growth before India will overtake France. Can India sustain 8% growth over the next 20 years? 2010 inflation will average 13% in India but only 1.7% in France. The recipe for India's rise is not yet clear. At the very least it will take 2 decades.
I never said that they will spend $22 billion in a single year, pal ! Your imagination's flying off, it seems ! I am saying we have the capability to spend massive resources for satisfying our defense needs, considering we are still a developing nation. You are stupid enough to think that we will match your defense spending, anyway ! We don't have such global aspirations as global power wannabes like you. Our biggest requirement is to balance the rise of China and keep a definitive edge over Pakistan always, and our defense spending is matched to these two important requirements. And I might, why can't we have 8% growth for the next 20 years ? If China can, so can we, the inflation has spiked only in the last 2-3 years. Its nothing that can't be controlled.
 

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I never said that they will spend $22 billion in a single year, pal ! Your imagination's flying off, it seems !
Apparently you forgot what you said...

Oh yeah ! What if the two deals go through, i.e. MMRCA and the sub deal within the next five years ?? That almost matches your defense spending, doesn't it !
I am saying we have the capability to spend massive resources for satisfying our defense needs, considering we are still a developing nation.
Apparently you don't with the US arming Pakistan and China spending 4X more than India. You don't have to match them dollar for dollar, but you need to spend at least as much as France on equipment. The forces are seriously outdated while China and Pakistan are moving forward with modernisation at a greater pace.

You are stupid enough to think that we will match your defense spending, anyway ! We don't have such global aspirations as global power wannabes like you. Our biggest requirement is to balance the rise of China and keep a definitive edge over Pakistan always, and our defense spending is matched to these two important requirements
Are you really stupid enough to think you can defend against China and Pakistan with a budget less than France, a country that has no external threats and supported by an alliance with a $1.2 trillion budget? You want to build three aircraft carriers, SSNs, SSBNs yet don't plan on being a global power wannabe? Your defence spending is neither matching your external threats, nor is it matching your global aspirations which you do indeed have.

And I might, why can't we have 8% growth for the next 20 years ? If China can, so can we, the inflation has spiked only in the last 2-3 years. Its nothing that can't be controlled.
I didn't say it couldn't, I said the path to 8% growth is not clear. Inflation comes with the territory of high growth and GoI cannot stop it despite their claims as evidence over the last 2 years. Last year they said it was going down to 5% in the middle of 2010 and it spiked to 16%. They don't know what they are doing.
 

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Apparently you don't with the US arming Pakistan and China spending 4X more than India. You don't have to match them dollar for dollar, but you need to spend at least as much as France on equipment.
The actual budget of the Indian Armed Forces is close to $100 billion. Yes, that is enough to both deter China and maintain both a quantitative and qualitative lead over Pakistan.

As far as procurement is concerned, I don't think money is any issue there... the Indian Armed Forces usually get what they ask for (as long as it foreign, not indigenous) even if it is not part of their budget.

The forces are seriously outdated while China and Pakistan are moving forward with modernisation at a greater pace.
Maybe China is modernising faster than us, but Pakistan? lol


You want to build three aircraft carriers, SSNs, SSBNs yet don't plan on being a global power wannabe?
India wants to project power in the Indian Ocean Region, that is all. We don't plan on invading South America anytime soon.

Your defence spending is neither matching your external threats, nor is it matching your global aspirations which you do indeed have.
India's defence spending, at 2.6% of GDP, is in line with the world's average. So far, we have won every war we fought against Pakistan, so I think our external threats are being handled quite well.



I didn't say it couldn't, I said the path to 8% growth is not clear. Inflation comes with the territory of high growth and GoI cannot stop it despite their claims as evidence over the last 2 years. Last year they said it was going down to 5% in the middle of 2010 and it spiked to 16%. They don't know what they are doing.
The GoI never knows what they are doing, nor should anyone expect them to in the future. It will be the Indian people who will cause India's economy to rise, not the GoI.
 

Armand2REP

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The actual budget of the Indian Armed Forces is close to $100 billion. Yes, that is enough to both deter China and maintain both a quantitative and qualitative lead over Pakistan.
The actual budget of the Indian Armed Forces is $32 billion. That is not enough to deter both Pakistan and China when their PPP on $130 billion dwarfs India by four times anyway you cut it, nominal or PPP.

As far as procurement is concerned, I don't think money is any issue there... the Indian Armed Forces usually get what they ask for (as long as it foreign, not indigenous) even if it is not part of their budget.
Just like they have gotten those artillery pieces?

Maybe China is modernising faster than us, but Pakistan? lol
As a percentage of equipment, they will have a higher one. The $2 billion annual aid from the US has doubled their procurement budget. Being a far smaller force than India, it doesn't take as much money. As a military dominated government, it is not hard for them to make arms purchases a priority.

Not to argue the capability of such forces, but they will be newer.

India wants to project power in the Indian Ocean Region, that is all. We don't plan on invading South America anytime soon.
Neither does China, but to build such assets says the country wants to be a global power, ie that worthy of a seat on the UNSC.

India's defence spending, at 2.6% of GDP, is in line with the world's average. So far, we have won every war we fought against Pakistan, so I think our external threats are being handled quite well.
The threat of a conventional Pakistani attack is minimal, the real threat is the Dragon to the north which is taking territory every day while GoI does nothing. The policy towards China to this day has been an absolute failure.

The GoI never knows what they are doing, nor should anyone expect them to in the future. It will be the Indian people who will cause India's economy to rise, not the GoI.
GoI sets the environment and policy which guide that growth, the people have no control and the government apparently has very little.
 

sandeepdg

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Apparently you forgot what you said...

Apparently you don't with the US arming Pakistan and China spending 4X more than India. You don't have to match them dollar for dollar, but you need to spend at least as much as France on equipment. The forces are seriously outdated while China and Pakistan are moving forward with modernisation at a greater pace.

Are you really stupid enough to think you can defend against China and Pakistan with a budget less than France, a country that has no external threats and supported by an alliance with a $1.2 trillion budget? You want to build three aircraft carriers, SSNs, SSBNs yet don't plan on being a global power wannabe? Your defence spending is neither matching your external threats, nor is it matching your global aspirations which you do indeed have.

I didn't say it couldn't, I said the path to 8% growth is not clear. Inflation comes with the territory of high growth and GoI cannot stop it despite their claims as evidence over the last 2 years. Last year they said it was going down to 5% in the middle of 2010 and it spiked to 16%. They don't know what they are doing.
Pal, what I meant was that, what you spend in a year on defense, we can match that same amount in two defense deals, even if it is spread over 5 years or so, it is a big thing for us, given the fact that we are a developing nation, and are willing to make such big ticket purchases for safeguarding our nation.

You are dumb enough to not understand, that even with our $32 billion budget, we can fight either of these 2 countries as of now. In case of Pakistan, we can trample over it ! And even in case of China, we can hold them back, this is not 1962, and they know that we can kick them real hard, if they resort to misadventures ! What do you think, our armed forces are stupid ? That they don't factor in the daily changing scenario on both our borders ?
Please don't go what your media or ours tells you, there's a lot more that doesn't come out in public domain, and its good that way. By the way, we have a standing army of 1.1 million soldiers, who's gonna manage their upkeep expenses, if we go on a shopping spree to buy weapons ? They are the priority, and with each passing the defense budget will only keep increasing. And also, we have started building stuff on our own also, all the 3 IACs will be built in India for instance as well as the frigates and destroyers for the IN, which will save us billions of dollars again. And by the way, 3 ACs and 3-4 SSBNs doesn't make any country a global power ! This is the minimum requirement for us to protect us from the multiple threats in our neighborhood, try living in a hostile region like us to understand the need for big scale hardware acquisition by the armed forces ! You can only become a global power, when you have the capabilities to match that of the Americans, and to some extent that of Russians and the Chinese ! We will be nowhere near them even after we acquire whatever I stated above ! And please, we don't have any global aspirations !
 

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Neither does China, but to build such assets says the country wants to be a global power, ie that worthy of a seat on the UNSC.

The threat of a conventional Pakistani attack is minimal, the real threat is the Dragon to the north which is taking territory every day while GoI does nothing. The policy towards China to this day has been an absolute failure.
Which idiot told you that the Chinese are taking territory every day ? Are you insane or what ? What they have is what they acquired long back and also thanks to Pakistan, which gifted them some of the land they are holding in POK. Not even an inch of land in Arunachal and Sikkim has been taken over by them, both of which they claim to be theirs. I agree that the government was sleeping or did not have the guts to face them when all this happened, but the scenario is changing with each passing day. We are putting it to them in stern words, that please resolve the differences and don't resort to misadventures.

And about the UN seat, we will get it someday, whether you like it not, hopefully in the next decade or so, considering our might and the influence that we will wield, say in 2020 !
 

Armand2REP

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I am not here to get into a pissing match with you. Just saying, you don't have as much money to purchase things as you think. I get rather tired of nationalists saying how rich FinMin is when it is a penny pinching outfit that doesn't realise delay = increased longterm expenditure. Even military branch heads admit GoI doesn't spend enough for its threat level so unless you are calling Indian Generals liars, you have no basis for your position.
 

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