Further Upgraded Indian T-72

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by Shaitan, Mar 9, 2017.

  1. F-14B

    F-14B #iamPUROHIT Senior Member

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    @Kunal Biswas sir please pardon me if this question is stupid
    but cant the Guns on the T-72 CIA be replaced with the Gun on the Arjun Mk I and II ???
     
  2. Vorschlaghammer

    Vorschlaghammer Regular Member

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    Arjun's gun is rifled. That limits chamber pressure and increases bore erosion, but it's overall seen as accurate since spin stabilization is more consistent than aerodynamic stabilization against finned projectiles, although HEAT and FSAPDS ammo need slipping band cause they perform badly when spun. Smoothbore guns can handle more chamber pressure since the friction is minimized. Ammo choice too is more since almost all nation's use smoothbore guns.

    Honestly speaking, the merits and demerits of rifled vs smoothbore tank guns can be discussed ad nauseum with lots of case studies and simulations. The British will brag about the accuracy of their L30, Germans will brag about their Rheinmetall L55 muzzle velocity, but the biggest practical factor is ammo availability. Unless you have a very developed military industrial capability, with sustained large order book for special tank gun ammo, it's not viable to have your own unique gun. Even the UK's Challenger fleet future is uncertain when the Charm 3 L27 ammo shelf life expires, cause there are very few suppliers.

    And that's just the barrel, it doesn't even consider the fact that ARDE 120mm gun has a much larger manual loading breech, where T72's 2A42 is 2 part ammo carousel type autoloader compatible. So you need a new turret too for one-piece ammo storage and manual loader, which means it's now becoming Tank Ex, which is a dead end cause Russian OEM has objection to that extensive modification.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  3. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    This can be done, but i doubt the Russian will allow such modifications ..

    The auto-loader has to be modified to accept single piece ammunition, Such an auto-loader based on current design can be made via DRDO but this is a theory at best ..

    =======

    Present autoloader system ..

    [​IMG]

     
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  4. bengalraider

    bengalraider DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    The adgpi T-90S already has a 1000Bhp engine, the upgrade plan for them envisages a 1500Bhp one!
     
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  5. aditya10r

    aditya10r Mera Bharat mahan Senior Member

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    With what engine?????
    Bharat power pack or some other foreign engine????

    _________________________________________

    And isn't a 1500hp engine an overkill for a 48t tank,I believe 1200hp engine do the job.

    PS:link to your blog plox.
     
  6. Vinod DX9

    Vinod DX9 Regular Member

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    When we can have 1500 hp the why waste time for a separate 1200 hp?
    Besides we need to kake sure T-72CIAs can be utilized in situations where adequate oxygen is absent
     
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  7. Vorschlaghammer

    Vorschlaghammer Regular Member

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    Call me crazy, but I believe our T72s are very good candidates for making drone tanks. The biggest mechanical task of reloading is already taken care of, sights can be easily replaced with cameras, drivers controls can be taken over by actuators.

    But first our Russland overlords need to approve of the modification and our Army brass need to be willing to do something radical, neither of which are very likely.
     
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  8. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Because, the existing engine has too many issues , One of the problem which came under limelight is posted above ..

    =================

    Their are no 1500hp engine operational in combat ready T-72 around the globe, Only India ( Bharat pack ) and Ukraine ( 6TD-3 ) working on 1400hp-1500hp engine for T-72/90 weight size class of tanks and its far away from perfection, If we see the timeline is around 10-15 years for a complete matured system that is meant for mass production ..

    The proven and tested T-72M1`s uprated engine is a gud mid term solution, Its cheap and can be fitted in Army workshops which overhaul T-72M1s ..

     
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  9. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Some interesting research papers and experiment done by Czech Republic R&D effort to increase T-72`s accuracy with 2A46 gun, By modifying turret mechanism ..

    This may not be related to India but Indian R&D can implement same techniques to improve T-72m1`s horrible accuracy, Further it would be great if the gun can be demounted without unlocking the entire turret ..

    ========
    ========

    We already have a thread on it : http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/indian-ugcv-ugv.32338/page-2

     
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  10. tharun

    tharun Patriot Senior Member

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    Problem is single piece ammunition is longer and varies in diameter too.
    Another question is there enough space inside the tank for modification?
    If our guys can do it we can two rows of ammunition in it.
     
  11. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Korzina autoloader which is installed on T-80 and T-64 tanks holds horizontal space, because the ring of ammunition is installed within the diameter of the turret ring, it holds a remarkable 28 rounds of ammo, more than the 22 rounds carried on the T-72, The average loading speed of the "Korzina" autoloader is easily on par with human loaders, and even outpaces the AZ autoloader of the T-72.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    ====================

    This is ofcourse my idea, I think full sized single piece ammunition can be placed horizontal and the auto loader may load it in one go ..

     
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  12. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    [​IMG]

    I always wanted to post this photo, Its a real pain in the rear to remove and re-fitted a new gun on these tanks, It takes no less than 3-4 or even more hours in controlled environment to remove and install a new gun on a T-72M1, The auto-loader has to be disengaged and turret has to be opened so that the gun can be slipped out from rear of the turret, Imagine a damaged gun has to be taken out in combat environment, Those people who does this job have a hard time to deal with it, This sort of issues are mostly ignored as its not about fancy imports or attention, Arjun series on the other hand do not suffer same issues due to requirements prepared by Army men who have first hand experience with T-72M1 maintenance nightmares ..

    [​IMG]

    Such innovations are essential and will ease maintenance of the vehicle in combat environment, dare say in peace time also, It does not require any import just some required attention to the details and Army should prepare a requirement in this direction ..
     
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  13. tharun

    tharun Patriot Senior Member

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    Why can't a single piece ammunition like 120mm rather than two pieces?
     
  14. Screambowl

    Screambowl Senior Member Senior Member

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    to avoid accidents and also to manipulate range

    more over a single 120mm would need more space than two pieces due to it's dimension and orientation while storing
    ........................................................................
     
  15. Vorschlaghammer

    Vorschlaghammer Regular Member

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    T64, T72, and T80 autoloaders are all placed in the turret basket, which has a limited diameter and circular, so they pretty much had to design cylindrical autoloaders with breaking the rounds in 2 pieces to fit them in. This practically prevents the length of the ammo you can use. Our T72s can't use longer Svinets FSAPDS ammo cause of the autoloader. On the other hand, Korean K2, and French Leclerc autoloaders are turret bustle mounted, so they can use one-piece ammo.
     
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  16. Kay

    Kay Regular Member

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    Russians solved the problem in Armata by placing ammo vertically in concentric cirles in the middle of the hull.
     
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  17. Vorschlaghammer

    Vorschlaghammer Regular Member

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    Armata autoloader is pretty much what happens when a turret basket type autoloader isn't limited by certain constraints like leaving room for the crew on top. In theory, the turret basket is indeed the most central and lowest point of the tank, so it should be hardest to reach by a penetrating hit. There are some arguments on internet forums that the typical jack-in-the-box effect when destroyed T72 turrets go flying is caused by having extra stowed rounds in the turret, outside of the autoloader. Nonetheless, if Armata side plates do get penetrated upto the autoloader, it's turret too will surely go flying, but all the crew members will survive inside the armored capsule, and in theory can drive the hull back.

    There are no perfect designs, just attempts to best balance protection, firepower, and mobility. And each nation's AFV designs will inevitable get influenced by a variety of factors like the established armored doctrine, politics, economy, and lots more. So there's really no point in doing hair-splitting analysis of merits and demerits of some minute design detail. War is chaos, and typically the side which best manages the chaos wins.
     
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  18. aditya10r

    aditya10r Mera Bharat mahan Senior Member

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    @Kunal Biswas
    Sir how many tank regiments are there in army????
    And is there any plan to increase the number of tank regiments.

    I had this question because we have to maintain numerical and technological superiority over Pakistan and have to deter china at the same time.
     
  19. Vinod DX9

    Vinod DX9 Regular Member

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    There are 63 Armoured Regiments in India.
    In near future there will be
    27 Reg of T-90 Bhisma (including S, Indian made T-90 and really if we have M)
    24 Reg of T-72 Ajeya Combat Improved
    7 Reg of T-90 MS (some says it is Bhisma II)
    2 Reg of Arjun Mk 1 (unlikely more will come)
    4 Reg of Arjun Mk 2 (ordered, possibly more to come)

    So, at least 64 Regiments we will get
    @Kunal sir can tell more precisely
     
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  20. aditya10r

    aditya10r Mera Bharat mahan Senior Member

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    So if everything falls in place then army could be operating 80 armoured regiments in next 15 years given we have to retire older t-72's.

    My main headache is that last year army had deployed 100 t-72's in Ladakh,then why does army require light tanks when current inventory fulfills the role????
     

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