Frustration

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by nirranj, Dec 27, 2015.

  1. nirranj

    nirranj Regular Member

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    Wrote out my frustration.

    When it comes to national defense, I see complete collapse in decision making. First it was sacrificing LCA Tejas and Arjun MBTs for importing foreign equipment ( note rafales and T90).

    Now even with imports there is cluelessness. The air force wants 126 rafales. The govt first said it will only allow 18 to be imported in fly away condition and the rest will have to be assembled in India. New govt came. Air force said its squadrons are depleting of fighter assets and pleaded for rafales asap. PM announces India will buy 36 rafales through a govt to govt contract. It's one year since and no news on what's going on.

    The ever dragging negotiations on the FGFA program is also another matter of concern. With the air force having more than half of its fighter fleet obsolete and nearing end of their lifespans, the 108 or 144 numbers of fifth gen fighter this project promises should have been an welcome news. But it seems that the air force is not ready for some reason and a deal is not going to be signed in foreseeable future.

    Now a good news came out stating that India will buy five S400 air defense systems from Russia and a official announcement will be made during PMs summit with Putin. But nothing was said in this regard. The S400 systems would have helped relieve some fighters to offensive role. As for the matter these are few of the most advanced and potent air defense systems in the world now. China recently signed a deal to buy 6 such systems to safeguard its assets against any potential aerial threats in Eastern theater.

    Now that we have decommissioned INS Godavari, we are currently left with 14 frigates. Also with the slow pace of progress in the scorpenes project, our submarine force stands at 14 boats. There are two projects that are yet to start. The project 17A for 7 frigates and project 75I for 6 submarines. The project 17A is expected to start in 2017 and the first ship is expected to be commissioned in 2023. With two more frigates scheduled to be decommissioned in near future, the navy which aspires to be a blue water navy should do with 12 frigates until the first project 17A ship is commissioned. This means limited number of carrier battle group escorts when the new aircraft carrier is commissioned in 2020. Only thing to smile is the frigates that will be in service by 2020 are all built after 2000.

    With the submarines. By the time the project 75I keel is laid, our force will be outmatched against even Pakistan. Not to mention about the small number of MRH and ASW helicopters that the navy operates.

    There are even many things that are not going good for the armed forces. The plan to equip soldiers with modern protective gears still has not materialized even after 8 years since it was announced. Our soldiers are forced to fight with limited defensive armour in face of increasing sophistication of the enemies offensive capabilities.

    Well there is an immense hope vested on this govt. Hope they deliver.

    I'm frustrated.
     
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  3. Sakal Gharelu Ustad

    Sakal Gharelu Ustad Detests Jholawalas Moderator

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    Are you not following the new geo-political developments! We are going to have peace on the western front and these shiny toys will be of no use!!

    :daru:

    @VIP @Screambowl
     
  4. nirranj

    nirranj Regular Member

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    I have a list of back stabbings from our western front after each time we have tried to embrace with open arms!!! So its better at least to wear a knife proof jacket that specially protects out backs from stabbings :yawn:
     
  5. Scarface

    Scarface Regular Member

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    This is more worrying than frustrating to be honest.

    I know this isn't a popular opinion over here but make in India can take a step back for immediate security, We can develop our indigenous capabilities when we are safe,so I don't particularly mind the T-90 / Arjun swap.

    Neither do I mind importing fighters, the Rafale in specific is however very annoying. It's too damn expensive and it's inferior but the fanboys (not here,out on the opinionated hacks who write blogs about defense) really take the cake.

    I have always had mixed opinions on the FGFA,the Russians are reluctant to hand is the reins of the PaK FA and want us to buy tech and Prototypes without having tested it ourselves.It was very underfunded by the Russians and we didn't fund it because Russia wouldn't include us in the tests and it resulted in what I can best describe as a 4.75 Gen aircraft,without reliable engines to power it.It had great potential but you need money to develop a stealth fighter and Sukhoi wasn't given any.

    The Navy who seems to be improving the fastest is still the most worrying.Subs are what define Naval Warfare these days and not only are we short on supply of those ,the ones we have aren't top notch either.

    I really really hope the government does something to fix it.
     
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  6. nirranj

    nirranj Regular Member

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    I don't mind if they import or make in India. But the problem is with the decision making. Even more problem is with the apathy towards domestic RnD. For any weapon system engines are the basis. We lag behind in this by a light year. Yet there is no clear policy direction on what we should develop in India with most urgency. See we are not looking at something like "we will land a man on moon in a decade". But at least we should make a vision for the next decade, " we will develop powertrains for all our land mobile systems, engines for all our aircrafts and turbines for all our naval systems". But such type of clear indigenization goals are not there. Which in turn is frustrating.

    Note the following auto giants have their tech centers in India, Mercedes, Ford, GM, Suzuki, Renault, Nissan, Volvo, Hyundai... They develop powertrains for local needs. Yet the govt is not moving in this direction.
     
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  7. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle Perfaarmance Naarmal Senior Member

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    My frustration are those paki keyboard warriors on PDF who shamelessly keep claiming that history of India belongs to pakistan.
    :hair: Even now a days, they have started claiming that Aryabhatta and Bhaskara were their scientists and Ancient Akhand Bharat is actually pakistan.
    :doh::doh:
     
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  8. anoop_mig25

    anoop_mig25 Senior Member Senior Member

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    the problem is last 6-8 years of un-decideness has taken toll on inventtry with everthing pille-up now

    And most of western-russian companies knows this and they would sell their toys at highest rate

    @Sakal Gharelu Ustad and if things where so rosy on western front for pak army then would had attemped another kargil but still they have not do so implys its not easy for them
     
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  9. Sakal Gharelu Ustad

    Sakal Gharelu Ustad Detests Jholawalas Moderator

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    There is something called sarcasm dude!

    Sent from my MI 3W using Tapatalk
     
  10. Bornubus

    Bornubus Senior Member Senior Member

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    Only Israel emerged as the most reliable defence partner in the recent past, especially during and after kargil war.

    Unlike backstabber Russians, They are ready to share to share their advance military tech with India, Gave us their Green Pine from which BEL developed its own, Barak 8,sevral critical upgrades, SPIKE etc etc.

    Russians only fooled us with Monkey models with insignificant TOTs whilst successfully stalling indigenous Arjuns by fooling army officers in honey traps and Bribes.

    I think S 400 is also a Pipe dream like PAK FA and even it could've been inducted by 2020,we can jointly develop Barak ER with 150 KM range with full TOT.
     
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  11. I_PLAY_BAD

    I_PLAY_BAD Regular Member

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    Can't understand whether your statement is far-fetched or sarcastic.
     
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  12. spikey360

    spikey360 Crusader Senior Member

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    This is what happens when a government does not have a clear defence/offence doctrine and blindly follows whatever the procurement guys of the AF/Army are saying.
    This is like a rich father spoiling his children with whatever gifts they want, without giving a sliver of thought about the usefulness of the gifts.
    This visit Pakistan, is the last straw. One cannot boast of a strong Pakistan policy and then go and visit Namaz Sheriff in his farmhouse. Modi has shown himself him to be of same pedigree in policy-making as MMS. His unqualified love for this myuzzlim cunt-ry will cost us dear.
     
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  13. nirranj

    nirranj Regular Member

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    We all thought that The Russian navy was hamstrung with the project 11356 - Admiral Grigorovich class frigates when Ukraine stopped supply of Propulsion systems to Russia. But they have come up with a plan B so quick.

    They are planning for 18 new missile corvettes under a new project 22800, that will complement the Buyan-M class corvettes. These new ships that are expected to weigh around 1000 tonnes are expected to replace the much heavier Grigorovich class ships (Note the lead ship of Grigorovich class has just entered Sea trials) which are yet to enter service. They have financial constraints due to low oil price. But they will be able to export the Grigorovich class frigates and use the money to fund these new ships.

    They have sacrificed range and endurance. But they will have thrice the number of ships and thrice the number of anti ship/land attack cruise missiles. Grigorovich carries 8 kalibr missiles. The Buyan-M class carries 8 Kalibr missiles.

    They saw that the Buyan-M class ships are potent enough with the Kalibr missile systems and have moved ahead with a plan B to construct similar type of vessels. Each new vessel with 8 kalibr missiles are more than enough for national defense. I hope they can make some dedicated air defense missile boats based on Buyan-M or the new 22800 class with S400 systems. This will completely redefine the littoral combat ships.

    This is what lagging with us. We don't have a plan B. Mostly our plan A seems to be like life support. If Rafale is not materializing, we should have by now bought something else.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2015

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