French demand Crown Jewels to compensate for 1499 murder of Edward Platagenet

Scalieback

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well im being friendly - and not offended but really you have kinda ( i did say kinda ) corrupted my request - which was to member Armand
Sorry, but it's in an open forum and my response was failry even handed.

unfortunately you have taken a simple request to someone else and turned it into a kinda warped misunderstanding

many of us indians want to know more about france - and it does not affect our already EXCELLENT relationship with the UK ( notwithstanding the return of stolen property - eg jewels , gold and silver )

my position is that regarding military strategy India is now both with the usa-nato group as with the russians- more or less - and the brits saved us from the ottomans and kept us in one piece - we are friends with all three - USA , russians and European Union - so i cant agree that "america and india " are your enemies
I never said that. I'm talking history ie that the French tried to stop our expansion in America, India and helped all of our enemies at one time or another including Scotland, America, Ireland etc. Regarding baubles, come and get them ;)

my request to Armand was a sincere desire to learn more about France , the french language, people , their likes dislikes - pity that ( especially after your inappropriate response ) you have little to contribute in that ?
I have a friend (Brit) who married a French girl and lives in France. I've visited the country on numerous occasions. I'm able to give views on the French, their language, their likes and dislikes etc. albeit it will only be in my limited experience.

Their military is still very impressive and now they are back in NATO we have exercised with them on numerous occasions. In general, pretty good troops imx with fairly decent kit. They are let down by their politicians in my view and are already talking about withdrawing early from Afghanistan.

Their language is the language of love n'est pas?

The people are in general very nice and friendly in my experience. They don't like to talk about the war and would have you believe there was more people in the French resistance than in the entire British and Commonwealth armies! Collaboration is a dirty word. Even now, people find old resistance/SOE stockplies of weapons.

The French are borderline communist in a lot of ways. The govt is famous for acting, waiting until the strikes happen and then pay out of money squirreled away. The police stand by a lot of the time and don't disrupt the strikes as they feel it is everyone's right to do so. Only in extremis are the riot police called (CRS).

Beautiful country, nearly twice as big as Britain. A much more relaxed way of life.

Socially, they spend hours on a meal and don't do the 'getting hammered' at the weekend that Brits do. Fairly decent night life in my experience.

The down sides are they have a reputation for being unwashed, the women do not shave, they refuse to admit to understanding and speaking english and they have a penchant for surrendering.

Overall, I like France, I like staying there and the majority of French people outside Paris are friendly and will try and help you with a limited knowledge of their language. 8/10
 

roma

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ir military is still very impressive and now they are back in NATO we have exercised with them on numerous occasions. In general, pretty good troops imx with fairly decent kit. They are let down by their politicians in my view and are already talking about withdrawing early from Afghanistan.
The people are in general very nice and friendly in my experience. They don't like to talk about the war and would have you believe there was more people in the French resistance than in the entire British and Commonwealth armies! Collaboration is a dirty word. Even now, people find old resistance/SOE stockplies of weapons.

The French are borderline communist in a lot of ways. The govt is famous for acting, waiting until the strikes happen and then pay out of money squirreled away. The police stand by a lot of the time and don't disrupt the strikes as they feel it is everyone's right to do so. Only in extremis are the riot police called (CRS).
Socially, they spend hours on a meal and don't do the 'getting hammered' at the weekend that Brits do. Fairly decent night life in my experience.
The down sides are they have a reputation for being unwashed, the women do not shave, they refuse to admit to understanding and speaking english and they have a penchant for surrender

afghanistan ? penchant for surrender ?? women unwashed ??
????? what is all that absolute ..... JUNK !!! ......

arrrmannd ....... wheeere arerre youuuuuu pliiieeeeeezzzz !
 

Scalieback

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afghanistan ?
4 French troops killed by bomber in Afghanistan - Middle East - Stripes
The new French president, Francois Hollande, told North Atlantic Treaty Organization allies last month at a summit in Chicago that France would end its combat role this year, two years ahead of schedule, rebuffing appeals to stay in the fight longer.
penchant for surrender ??
France Surrenders, 1940
Cheese-eating surrender monkeys - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

women unwashed ??
Let's talk dirty | Kansan.com
At first, the prostitution that sprang up in and around the public baths at the end of the Middle Ages was ignored. However, in 1538 bathhouses were prohibited in France as rumors grew that women could become pregnant and infected with sexually transmitted diseases by swimming in the water, Ashenburg says.
About 51 percent of French women and 55 percent of French men do not shower or bathe every day, Katherine Ashenburg says in her book, The Dirt on Clean. "The French seem to have a perverse national pride in their own unconcern about cleanliness," she writes. That's just not true, though, says Olivia Prouvost-Allen, Lilles, France, graduate student. Prouvost-Allen says people have a lot of misconceptions about French hygiene. She is often asked if she shaves and showers regularly, she says, and answer is yes. All her friends bathe every day, too. The only people in France who do not are the people in their 60s and 70s, who she says are still not used to the idea of having indoor plumbing and unlimited access to water.
????? what is all that absolute ..... JUNK !!! ......
Really? Read above :cool:

arrrmannd ....... wheeere arerre youuuuuu pliiieeeeeezzzz !
Living up to his stereotype and hiding? ;)
 

Armand2REP

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Rubbish. After the Romans conquered Gaul (which is where?) Julius went somewhere else and ran away. Only Claudius did it. Another sign of French early capitulation. A national trait it would seem
Didn't the Romans conquer England... thought so. another sign of English early capitulation. that is why your capital carries a Roman name. ;)

you mean the Norsemen (aka vikings) who conquered and occupied northern France.
You mean the Viking Rollo that was defeated by Charles III of France, forced to become a vassal of said king, converted to Christianity and changed his name to Count Robert? Some defeat there... :rolleyes:

Yep. And English contains how many French words?
10,000 IIRC

Westminster Abbey was already built when they crowned the barstweard William. It was the same religion.
Rollo was a pagan before he was baptised by the French. What does that have to do with the origination of the Normans? The Duke of Normandy was already French when he landed.

Nice source...

"What is this about? This wiki is a catalog of the tricks of the trade for writing fiction."

:rofl:

Let's see, not only had they been intermarrying with French for 7 generations. The Duke of Normandy also had half his army made of French outside of Normandy. So the army was ethnically and culturally French.

If you put that for every answer you would have saved yourself much embarrassment. ;)

They did. They also burnt their heroine
They burned a myth... too bad British troops couldn't leave their base to burn Al Queda herione in Afghanstan. Pretty embarrassing when US Marines have to do the job for you. :)

Even more rubbish. Once we had finally finished off the rebellious northern neighbours (and their French allies) in 1746, we could then venture forth
The Auld Alliance was too much for poor England. That ended in 1560. Can't wait for our Scottish brothers to join the league of free nations.

Come and get them :) or will you reach into your survival tin which contains only one item, a folded piece of white cloth :cool:
Give them to India and maybe they will let you sell them some fighters. Yeah, you lost that too. :cool:
 

Scalieback

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Didn't the Romans conquer England... thought so. another sign of English early capitulation. that is why your capital carries a Roman name. ;)
Not all of Britain actually and long after the French kowtowed

You mean the Viking Rollo that was defeated by Charles III of France, forced to become a vassal of said king, converted to Christianity and changed his name to Count Robert? Some defeat there... :rolleyes:
Still doesn't make the Normans french any more than it makes Alsace Lorraine German... In fact .....

10,000 IIRC
Really? Name me thirty or so? Nice to know you're english typing is better than your french history though

Rollo was a pagan before he was baptised by the French. What does that have to do with the origination of the Normans? The Duke of Normandy was already French when he landed.
He wasn't french. He was a Norman. How many times do you need telling? Surely if France had conquered England it would have been the french king crowned? Where did william die? Fighting who? William the Conqueror - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nice source...

"What is this about? This wiki is a catalog of the tricks of the trade for writing fiction."

:rofl:
Wiki ain't bad imo. When you have a better source backed up with facts, I'll read it. Until then i'll assume the usual french capitulation.

Let's see, not only had they been intermarrying with French for 7 generations. The Duke of Normandy also had half his army made of French outside of Normandy. So the army was ethnically and culturally French.
So why is the french contingent so small? Why did the Normans fight the french? If they were one nation ................ Read some Norman history:William the Conqueror - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you put that for every answer you would have saved yourself much embarrassment. ;)
Embarrassed? By a cheese eating surrender monkey? never!

They burned a myth... too bad British troops couldn't leave their base to burn Al Queda herione in Afghanstan. Pretty embarrassing when US Marines have to do the job for you. :)
We've seen the sources of french troops in Afghanistan. Carrying on the national trait ............

The Auld Alliance was too much for poor England. That ended in 1560.
That's why the french still supported them in 1746 and 1689 and 1776 etc etc Read some history!

Give them to India and maybe they will let you sell them some fighters. Yeah, you lost that too. :cool:
We did, usual french diplomatic posturing :) Go for it as at least the Indians may use them
 

Bhadra

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Not all of Britain actually and long after the French kowtowed



Still doesn't make the Normans french any more than it makes Alsace Lorraine German... In fact .....



Really? Name me thirty or so? Nice to know you're english typing is better than your french history though



He wasn't french. He was a Norman. How many times do you need telling? Surely if France had conquered England it would have been the french king crowned? Where did william die? Fighting who? William the Conqueror - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Wiki ain't bad imo. When you have a better source backed up with facts, I'll read it. Until then i'll assume the usual french capitulation.



So why is the french contingent so small? Why did the Normans fight the french? If they were one nation ................ Read some Norman history:William the Conqueror - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Embarrassed? By a cheese eating surrender monkey? never!



We've seen the sources of french troops in Afghanistan. Carrying on the national trait ............



That's why the french still supported them in 1746 and 1689 and 1776 etc etc Read some history!



We did, usual french diplomatic posturing :) Go for it as at least the Indians may use them


In your nut pick arguments you have committed some affront to India for nothing. Did that show your true colours !
 

Armand2REP

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Not all of Britain actually and long after the French kowtowed
Not all of France actually either and England was next on the chopping block after the Celts kowtowed easier than the Gauls. Pretty lame example there.

Still doesn't make the Normans french any more than it makes Alsace Lorraine German... In fact .....
Little Alsace were Germans and big Lorraine always was French and still are to this day, just like Normans are still French.

Really? Name me thirty or so? Nice to know you're english typing is better than your french history though
French Words and Expressions in English

10,000 French words adopted after the conquest... 7,500 still in use today.

How French Has Influenced English

The coat of arms of the United Kingdom reads 'Dieu et mon Droit"

He wasn't french. He was a Norman. How many times do you need telling? Surely if France had conquered England it would have been the french king crowned? Where did william die? Fighting who?
He wasn't French huh? He spoke French, had a French name, was baptised under a French priest, was a French noble and married the granddaughter of a French King. He was buried in France where he died trying to defeat the county of Vexin, ruled by Raoul de Gouy who was not under the control of the French King Phillip I. It wasn't for another 120 years that Angevins and France would go to heads.

Wiki ain't bad imo. When you have a better source backed up with facts, I'll read it. Until then i'll assume the usual french capitulation.
The source you cited was not wikipedia but tvtropes... a fake wiki. :rolleyes:

Home Page - Television Tropes & Idioms

So why is the french contingent so small? Why did the Normans fight the french? If they were one nation ]
Let's see, his army included large numbers of mercenaries from Maine, Brittany and Northeastern France... wouldn't those be French? :rolleyes:

The Normans didn't fight the French once Rolo became French. Obviously they were not before hand.

Embarrassed? By a cheese eating surrender monkey? never!
Who is a cheese eating surrender monkey? You? That is a phrase used by Yanky trailer trash.

We've seen the sources of french troops in Afghanistan. Carrying on the national trait ........
The Dutch left last year, does that make them hagelslag eating surrender monkeys? You leave soon, will that make you fish and chip eating surrender monkeys? Wikileaks revealed well that British troops were not getting the job done in Helmand. If you hide in the base how can you secure the area? French areas are well under control and didn't have to be embarrassed being replaced by US Marines.

WikiLeaks: UK Military 'Not Up To The Task'

That's why the french still supported them in 1746 and 1689 and 1776 etc etc Read some history!
Guy, the Treaty of Union was passed in 1707 creating the UK. Read some history.

We did, usual french diplomatic posturing :) Go for it as at least the Indians may use them
At least? Not like the Eurofighter has fired 1/10th the shots of Rafale in combat. That is why you lost. :)
 

Scalieback

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Not all of France actually either and England was next on the chopping block after the Celts kowtowed easier than the Gauls. Pretty lame example there.
Not all of France? Really? Name one part of modern France that was not under Roman occupation?

They didn't kowtow as easily as the Gauls either. A certain maiden taught them a lesson or two and that's why London is the capital.

As for lame examples, I think you beat me on that :)

Little Alsace were Germans and big Lorraine always was French and still are to this day, just like Normans are still French.
As the Normans weren't French you've lost that argument already. A-L have changed hands more times than a Italians change sides.

French Words and Expressions in English

10,000 French words adopted after the conquest... 7,500 still in use today.

How French Has Influenced English

The coat of arms of the United Kingdom reads 'Dieu et mon Droit"
It does, god on my right

Seems the French are scared of the anglification of their language: France protects itself from the dreaded English language by banning 'fast-food' and 'podcasting' | Mail Online

Now if it was already french that we spoke ...............

Get with the times and give up that outdated underused southern european mish mash and use the queens english (like you do on here)

He wasn't French huh? He spoke French, had a French name, was baptised under a French priest, was a French noble and married the granddaughter of a French King. He was buried in France where he died trying to defeat the county of Vexin, ruled by Raoul de Gouy who was not under the control of the French King Phillip I. It wasn't for another 120 years that Angevins and France would go to heads.
Nope, he was a Norman. How many times do you need telling. he fought the french, he died fighting the french. If he was french and a vassal, why wasn't the king of france made King of England? Because..... now wait for it.... he wasn't French!

The source you cited was not wikipedia but tvtropes... a fake wiki. :rolleyes:

Home Page - Television Tropes & Idioms
i forget what we were discussing there, but there you go. I'm trying to keep up with at least three threads .....

Let's see, his army included large numbers of mercenaries from Maine, Brittany and Northeastern France... wouldn't those be French? :rolleyes:
If his Army was french, why wasn't it the french army? Why did they have a seperate contingent? Because..... now wait for it.... he wasn't French and neither was his army! You really are clutching at straws here. But do carry on.

The Normans didn't fight the French once Rolo became French. Obviously they were not before hand.
In one breath you try to say mercanaries from different areas of france now make up a french army, but in the next you say William never fought the french. Which is it? After all, you should be able to say one or t'other

Who is a cheese eating surrender monkey? You? That is a phrase used by Yanky trailer trash.
If you're french, that's what you are. Whoever made it up, it's very apt :cool:

The Dutch left last year, does that make them hagelslag eating surrender monkeys?
No, only the french are cheese eating surrender monkeys. They would be clog wearing surrender monkeys.

You leave soon, will that make you fish and chip eating surrender monkeys?
Nope, we leave at the agreed timescale, not run away like the french

Wikileaks revealed well that British troops were not getting the job done in Helmand. If you hide in the base how can you secure the area? French areas are well under control and didn't have to be embarrassed being replaced by US Marines.
That quote was from the US Marines. Thankfully British security is a tad better and what we think of our erstwhile cousins and their involvement doesn't get to be public knowledge. Frankly I'm grateful for the Americans. Saved my bacon out there.

as for assange, i sincerely hope he's strung up. Self aggrandising muppet!

Guy, the Treaty of Union was passed in 1707 creating the UK. Read some history.
I thought I was talking about England and it still didn't stop rebellious Scots, rebellious Irish and rebellious Americans getting succour from the French. i know my history, now get back to reading yours or does Vichy still have a funny taste?

At least? Not like the Eurofighter has fired 1/10th the shots of Rafale in combat. That is why you lost. :)
I thought it was to do with cost and maintenance? Still, if the Indians would rather buy French than British/Italian/German, crack on.

I don't think Typhoon fired any cannons in Libya? Did Rafale?
 
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Ray

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The Myth of Henry V
By Felipe Fernandez-Armesto

Appearance and reality

Henry V, in English myth, is the ideal Englishman: plucky and persevering, austere and audacious, cool-headed, stiff-lipped and effortlessly superior: 'simply the greatest man,' as my generation of undergraduates learned, 'ever to rule England'. Elizabethan dramatists boosted the image. With a bit of help from deluded historians and mythopoeic film-makers, Shakespeare turned Henry into a box-office hero and a romantic lead. The myth became more important than the man - just as well, for those who like their past to be comforting or inspiring. The reality, stripped out of the myth, is vicious and dispiriting.

Entombed in Westminster Abbey, Henry presents himself as he wanted us to remember him: a pious king, almost a saintly one, buried above Edward the Confessor, in a unique space, exclusively dedicated to the cult of the king's soul. A true king, crowned by God. A warrior-king, helmed and mounted. A chivalrous king, riding into history in hallowed company. Swan-badges allude, by a Latin pun, - signo, 'by a sign' echoes cygno, 'by a swan' - to a vision of the cross: 'by this sign, conquer!' Yet Henry's kingship was tainted. His usurping dynasty had no right to the crown. His victories were triumphs of hype, stained by the blood of war-crimes. His piety was remarkable, especially in zeal for burning heretics, but a saint he ain't.


After Henry's death, English propaganda constructed an even more elaborate legend: of his self-transformation, after a reckless youth, into a model of responsibility. For the conversion of royal sinner into royal saint - the tale of how 'Madcap Prince Hal' became 'Harry the Great' - there is no scrap of contemporary evidence. Yet the English love it as an antidote to the despair their royal heirs generally provoke. For it's a tough job, being Prince of Wales, with no role, except to wait. Princes try to find ways of keeping busy - as soldiers or statesmen, playboys or politicians, grumblers or gardeners, leaders or liabilities - but generational conflicts, PR blunders and intolerable frustrations always seem to get in their way. It's a comfort to be able to turn to Henry V as an example of how the tearaway can turn regal, the rebel can become reliable. Whenever Farmer George's Black Sheep went astray, when Victoria's heir flirted with actresses or George V's with fascists, when Prince Charles got spattered with scandal or derision, the English could think reassuringly of Henry V. The ugly prince, kissed by history, becomes a beautiful legend.

Henry's spell of alleged laddishness was a short episode when he was a de-mobbed soldier, twenty years old, with wild oats to sow. Supposedly, he spent time and money in taverns and brothels, in drunken brawls and sordid liaisons, with unsuitable playmates. 'He exercised meanly,' said a late but influential chronicle, ' the feats of Venus and Mars and other pastimes of youth.' The stories are plausible but untrue - part of an imaginative reconstruction of Henry's life which his brother later paid a hack to write up. The models are saintly conversion-narratives: St Augustine's, from an unchaste life, or St Paul's, from wickedness to apostleship, or St Thomas Becket's, from a wastrel 'suddenly changed into a new man'. Adolescent excess was an excusable background against which a born-again do-gooder could shine more effulgently with - in the words Shakespeare put into Hal's mouth - a 'reformation glittering o'er my fault'.

Quest for security

From a propaganda viewpoint, it was an important falsehood. When the legend took shape, England was locked in war against France, where kings supposedly worked miracles and bore the blood of saints. England needed comparable evidence of divine approval. Even in his lifetime Henry sometimes behaved as if bidding for sanctity. He vowed chastity, pledged thriftiness, affected the appearance of a priest: French ambassadors said he looked like one. He had his hair cut like a priest's as a sign of revulsion from worldliness. He used sacred oil from France at his royal anointing. He spent hours in prayer and confession. He even adopted, in art and pageant, the role of St George. The idea of presenting him as the product of a sudden royal conversion-experience arose, I suspect, from the liturgy of the day of his coronation: Passion Sunday, when Christ entered Jerusalem in kinglike triumph and the Church prayed for rescue, in preparation for Holy Week, from the depths of sin. 'From the depths have I cried to thee! Create, O Lord, a new heart within me!'

Equally legendary is the story of Henry's reconciliation with his father, which the propagandists crafted to resemble the edifying biblical tale of the Prodigal Son. Henry is supposed to have abased himself before his father in a cloak full of needles to signify thrifty intentions and to have earned, in return, a touching benediction. The real scene was much less edifying. Henry's quarrel with his father was not about the alleged youthful peccadilloes on which the propaganda concentrated, but about the usual political agenda: money and power. At a deeper level, Henry had every reason to hate his father, who had neglected him in childhood and slaughtered the father-substitutes to whom the child turned.


The immediate circumstances surrounding the old king's deathbed were too urgent for sentiment. Factions were manoeuvring for power like buzzards around bones. As the king's health crumbled, Henry and his friends were out of office and excluded from patronage. This was a serious matter for the prince, who had an expensive household of toughs, lackeys, sycophants and freeloaders to keep up. He staged a coup, bursting into the king's presence with a dagger in his hand and an army at his back. What followed was not a reconciliation, but a negotiation. The king got peace. Henry got power.

The myth of Henry V

According to the next instalment of the legend, he used that power - especially after his own accession in March, 1413 - to repudiate unsuitable old friends. The propaganda-writers made this out to be virtuous: evidence of the depth of the new king's conversion and of the mettle of his incorruptibility. Such is the tenor of Shakespeare's account of the disgrace of 'plump Jack' Falstaff, the abettor of Henry's boyhood pranks; the same spirit pervades Shakespeare's depiction of the execution - severe but just - of Henry's old carousing companion, Bardolph. Really, faithlessness to old friends was part of the normal pattern of Henry's behaviour. He had turned on his beloved advisers and comrades-in-arms, Harry and Thomas Percy, at the battle of Shrewsbury in 1403. Later, he would disavow his old tutor and longtime ally, Henry Beaufort, in a dispute with the pope over papal authority in England.

The most notorious case was that of Sir John Oldcastle, a battlefield friend, whom Henry burned to death for heresy at the start of his reign: the politically subversive heresy of the Lollards, whose dangerous doctrine of 'dominion by grace' implied that kings had to earn power by being good. Henry represented the sacrifice of a friend as noble and the case as a trial of his own faith - 'God scourged him,' his chaplain said, 'in Sir John Oldcastle'.


A further dimension of Henry's quest for security at home was war abroad - a way of exporting aristocratic violence. He had no right to the crown of France - after all, he had no right to that of England either - but it was an ineluctably traditional claim: a real king in England was obliged to pretend to the throne of France. According to the legend, the war displayed Henry's military genius. Really, it was a story of gambler's luck. At first, Henry probably envisaged no more than a chevauchée - a raid where the English would grab what they could. But a superior French army got stuck in the mud at Agincourt and Henry did what every gambler does with unexpected winnings: he increased his stake, bidding to rule France in reality. He also began, on the field of Agincourt, a career as a war criminal, massacring prisoners in defiance of the conventions. Even so, the French hated each other more than they hated him. So he was able to prolong victory in alliance with French factions and successfully demanded a promise of the reversion of the throne.

The policy was never likely to succeed: the war overstretched English resources and left the parts of France which Henry conquered prostrate with depredations and disease. But the last element of the legend fell into place. Henry married a French princess, Catherine of Valois. It was a marriage of convenience - part of the political deal: a typical royal marriage, in fact. Henry neglected his bride and, when he was dying, ignored her. The great love of her life was her bodyguard, whom she married after her husband's death. Yet Shakespeare's love-scenes have stamped English minds with effectively indelible romantic images. We should not repine. In history, myths are more powerful than facts. In the long run, they generate more effects. The course of history, if there is such a thing, depends less on what actually happens than on the falsehoods people believe.

BBC - History - British History in depth: The Myth of Henry V

*******************************

History is written by the victor and truth and reality gets blurred.

This is what it appears from this BBC presentation.
 

Scalieback

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*******************************

History is written by the victor and truth and reality gets blurred.

This is what it appears from this BBC presentation.
Yep, Shakespeare has a lot to answer for. Not least for boring me silly in my school years forsooth I bit my thumb etc!

What he did to good King Richard III is inexcusable. Hunchback my bottom (am I allowed to say @rse?)
 

Ray

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The reality why the English won at Agnicourt is not what is immortalised by the English.

Here is possibly the actual reason:


In pursuit of his claim to the French throne, Henry V of England and an army of about 11,000 men invaded Normandy in August 1415. They took Harfleur in September, but by then half their troops had been lost to disease and battle casualties. Henry decided to move back northeast to Calais, whence his diminished and exhausted forces could return to England.

However, large French forces under the constable Charles I d'Albret blocked his line of retreat to the north. The French outnumbered the English 5 to one. The date was October 25, 1415.The French force, which totaled 20,000 to 30,000 men, many of them mounted knights in heavy armor, caught the exhausted English army of less than 6,000 men at Agincourt. The battle resulted in an overwhelming defeat of the vastly superior French forces which lost 6,000 men while the English lost less than 450 men, a casualty ratio of 13 to one.

The question that bothered historians is not how the English won, but why and how the French lost the battle with fresh troops mounted on horses, consisting of gallant Knights heavily armed and armored, facing an exhausted English force of commoners on foot, lightly armed, and one-fifth their number – the protagonists meeting each other ont he territory of the French in a battlefield of French choosing. How could the French have lost?

The battlefield detectives of Discovery Channel debunked the superiority of the English long bow which they demonstrated to be incapable of penetrating the steel French armor at point-blank range.

Next they examined the ground when wet, as it was during the battle, and found that the mud was so thick, sticky and slippery that a man in armor who fell on it found it difficult to get up. The French fell on top of each other and were easily slaughtered by the English, who unencumbered, were wielding axes and swords.

But the deciding factor was the size and shape of the battlefield terrain. The French unwisely chose a battlefield that funneled into a narrow frontage of only about 1,000 yards of open ground between two wooded areas. In this cramped space, which made large-scale maneuvers almost impossible, the French virtually forfeited the advantage of their overwhelming numbers. The battlefield detectives demonstrated what happens to a thick crowd in a football stadium funneled into narrow entrances and exits; a few persons stumble and the entire crowd fall down like dominoes. That is what happened to the French in Agincourt.

At dawn on October 25, the two armies prepared for battle. Three French divisions, the first two dismounted, were drawn up one behind another. Henry arrayed his men in a dismounted line, the dismounted men-at-arms in three central blocks linked by projecting wedges of archers, and additional masses of archers formed forward wings at the left and right ends of the English line Henry's long-range archery provoked the French into an assault. Several small French cavalry charges broke upon a line of pointed stakes in front of the English archers. Then the main French assault, consisting of heavily armored, dismounted knights, advanced over the sodden ground. As more French knights entered the battle, they became so tightly bunched that some of them could barely raise their arms to strike a blow. At this decisive point, Henry ordered his lightly equipped and more mobile English archers to attack with swords and axes. The unencumbered English hacked down thousands upon thousands of the French, and thousands more were taken prisoner, many of whom were killed on Henry's orders, because his force is too small to handle large numbers of prisoners. The French nobles fully expected to be kept alive for ransom as the spoils of war, but English commoners were cut-throats who massacred them without mercy even when they offered to surrender. The English had been led brilliantly by Henry, but the incoherent tactics of the French contributed greatly to their defeat.

2. Debunking Historical Myths: The Battle of Agincourt for Economic Nationalism and Mendicant Foreign Policy
 
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Scalieback

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The reality why the English won at Agnicourt is not what is immortalised by the English.

Here is possibly the actual reason:


In pursuit of his claim to the French throne, Henry V of England and an army of about 11,000 men invaded Normandy in August 1415. They took Harfleur in September, but by then half their troops had been lost to disease and battle casualties. Henry decided to move back northeast to Calais, whence his diminished and exhausted forces could return to England.

However, large French forces under the constable Charles I d'Albret blocked his line of retreat to the north. The French outnumbered the English 5 to one. The date was October 25, 1415.The French force, which totaled 20,000 to 30,000 men, many of them mounted knights in heavy armor, caught the exhausted English army of less than 6,000 men at Agincourt. The battle resulted in an overwhelming defeat of the vastly superior French forces which lost 6,000 men while the English lost less than 450 men, a casualty ratio of 13 to one.

The question that bothered historians is not how the English won, but why and how the French lost the battle with fresh troops mounted on horses, consisting of gallant Knights heavily armed and armored, facing an exhausted English force of commoners on foot, lightly armed, and one-fifth their number – the protagonists meeting each other ont he territory of the French in a battlefield of French choosing. How could the French have lost?

The battlefield detectives of Discovery Channel debunked the superiority of the English long bow which they demonstrated to be incapable of penetrating the steel French armor at point-blank range.

Next they examined the ground when wet, as it was during the battle, and found that the mud was so thick, sticky and slippery that a man in armor who fell on it found it difficult to get up. The French fell on top of each other and were easily slaughtered by the English, who unencumbered, were wielding axes and swords.

But the deciding factor was the size and shape of the battlefield terrain. The French unwisely chose a battlefield that funneled into a narrow frontage of only about 1,000 yards of open ground between two wooded areas. In this cramped space, which made large-scale maneuvers almost impossible, the French virtually forfeited the advantage of their overwhelming numbers. The battlefield detectives demonstrated what happens to a thick crowd in a football stadium funneled into narrow entrances and exits; a few persons stumble and the entire crowd fall down like dominoes. That is what happened to the French in Agincourt.

At dawn on October 25, the two armies prepared for battle. Three French divisions, the first two dismounted, were drawn up one behind another. Henry arrayed his men in a dismounted line, the dismounted men-at-arms in three central blocks linked by projecting wedges of archers, and additional masses of archers formed forward wings at the left and right ends of the English line Henry's long-range archery provoked the French into an assault. Several small French cavalry charges broke upon a line of pointed stakes in front of the English archers. Then the main French assault, consisting of heavily armored, dismounted knights, advanced over the sodden ground. As more French knights entered the battle, they became so tightly bunched that some of them could barely raise their arms to strike a blow. At this decisive point, Henry ordered his lightly equipped and more mobile English archers to attack with swords and axes. The unencumbered English hacked down thousands upon thousands of the French, and thousands more were taken prisoner, many of whom were killed on Henry's orders, because his force is too small to handle large numbers of prisoners. The French nobles fully expected to be kept alive for ransom as the spoils of war, but English commoners were cut-throats who massacred them without mercy even when they offered to surrender. The English had been led brilliantly by Henry, but the incoherent tactics of the French contributed greatly to their defeat.

2. Debunking Historical Myths: The Battle of Agincourt for Economic Nationalism and Mendicant Foreign Policy
That longbow fallacy eh? The reason why we're still supposed to practice it two hours every day. The reaon why Crecy, Poitiers and Agincourt are celebrated. Useless? Nope. It may not have penetrated full blown, lord of the realm armour but that armour had vents and cracks. Not everyone had full blown Italian made armour either.

Yes, it was a sodden field and yes the French were badly positioned (French arrogance?) and yes they were penned in. And yes the English army was vastly outnumbered and won a resounding victory (again) thanks to British pluck, four feet of yew and good leadership.

Then again, we did lose the Hundred Years War :(
 
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Ray

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As I said earlier, history is written by the victor.

Fables and heroic are always that of the victor.

If Germany had won WW II, history may have been different. Who knows?

The Mao Mao of Kenya were horrid chaps. Did a lot of atrocities no doubt.

But then it is now, after 60 years that we learn that Kenyan were also victims of torture and ill treatment in detention camps of the 1950s. I believe their cases will be heard in London's high court.

And then I believe that the stories told by Gitu wa Kahengeri and Jane Muthoni Mara is to be aired on Channel 4, supported by a former colonial officer, John Nottingham.

So, nothing is black or white.
 

Scalieback

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As I said earlier, history is written by the victor.

Fables and heroic are always that of the victor.

If Germany had won WW II, history may have been different. Who knows?

The Mao Mao of Kenya were horrid chaps. Did a lot of atrocities no doubt.

But then it is now, after 60 years that we learn that Kenyan were also victims of torture and ill treatment in detention camps of the 1950s. I believe their cases will be heard in London's high court.

And then I believe that the stories told by Gitu wa Kahengeri and Jane Muthoni Mara is to be aired on Channel 4, supported by a former colonial officer, John Nottingham.

So, nothing is black or white.
As I've said before, Britain seems to apologise to everyone about everything but not to her own people. To those that slaved away down the mines, in the cotton mills, up the chimney's etc.

I think one of the most close run things was actually the decleration of Independence by the US. Only one vote in it. Now if America had stayed British .........
 

Ray

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There is nothing for any country to apologise actually for the history they have left behind.

What has happened, happened.

Nothing can change a word or wash it off.

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.
However, what my point was is that nothing is black or white.

It is painted rosily by the victor while it lasts.

It is only that there is irrefutable proof now that Kenya is independent that skeletons are falling out of the cupboard.

Till then it was lily white.

No offence meant.

Life is how things are presented.

The US and UK feel that they won WW II and the USSR was on the sidelines, but the Russians feel that they delivered the world from the Nazi scourge.

Perceptions and acceptability of the projections.

Life still carries on!
 

Scalieback

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It is only that there is irrefutable proof now that Kenya is independent that skeletons are falling out of the cupboard.

Till then it was lily white.
They've been independent for generations. It's just that we seem to be in an apology runaround. How about the Mau Mau apologising to white farmers?

The US and UK feel that they won WW II and the USSR was on the sidelines, but the Russians feel that they delivered the world from the Nazi scourge.

Perceptions and acceptability of the projections.

Life still carries on!
Most of us realise that without the Russians, a good 60% more of their army would have fought us. A lot of us also realise that even without Brit and particularly US help the Russians may have made it on their own and would they have stopped in Germany or the channel?

How about if the Japs had gone west instead of east? No US war, no Siberian Divisions for the relief of Moscow etc.
 

Ray

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They've been independent for generations. It's just that we seem to be in an apology runaround. How about the Mau Mau apologising to white farmers?
Shouldn't they?



Most of us realise that without the Russians, a good 60% more of their army would have fought us. A lot of us also realise that even without Brit and particularly US help the Russians may have made it on their own and would they have stopped in Germany or the channel?
That realisation is of late.

Notice the condescension of the British regarding the Soviet chaps.

The evidence of how poorly the Red Army fought in 1941 confirmed these expectations. More than five million Soviet soldiers were captured or killed in six months; they fought with astonishing bravery, but at every level of combat were out-classed by troops that were better armed, better trained and better led.

This situation seemed beyond remedy. Yet within a year Soviet factories were out-producing their richly-endowed German counterparts - the Red Army had embarked on a thorough transformation of the technical and organisational base of Soviet forces, and a stiffening of morale, from Stalin downwards, produced the first serious reverse for the German armed forces when Operation Uranus in November 1942 led to the encirclement of Stalingrad and the loss of the German Sixth Army.
As if the Russians were chumps who made good!

The British too faced great reverses - Dunkirk and Burma. But then it was projected as event where great stoic and determination was shown! But of course, the Russia are not allowed that leeway.

would this not also apply to the British if one were commenting on Dunkirk and Burma

but at every level of combat were out-classed by troops that were better armed, better trained and better led.
But then I am no fan of Russia and so I will go by what the British history states.

How about if the Japs had gone west instead of east? No US war, no Siberian Divisions for the relief of Moscow etc.
Maybe!

But again, some books suggests that the US was only requiring a spark to come and help UK and Pearl Harbour provided it.

But then again, who is one to believe or disbelieve?
 

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