Former general says China won't be afraid to use force & solve Taiwan

tarunraju

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Re: Former general says China won't be afraid to use force & solve Tai

Taiwan is an unsolvable, just like the Korean war, and Kashmir. The military stalemate is too perfect to break by either side. The only way PRC can dream of reintegrating Taiwan is if there's a massive public movement in Taiwan, which is in favor of reunification. Reintegration by force is not going to work. Taiwan's "fall" will obliterate US influence in the region, because US-allies do really form a "string," and their shipping lanes are instruments of their national security (conversely, America's Asian Pivot). America will risk going to war with China over Taiwan, otherwise it will wither away from Asia.
 
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Redhawk

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Re: Former general says China won't be afraid to use force & solve Tai

Taiwan is an unsolvable, just like the Korean war, and Kashmir. The military stalemate is too perfect to break by either side. The only way PRC can dream of reintegrating Taiwan is if there's a massive public movement in Taiwan, which is in favor of reunification. Reintegration by force is not going to work. Taiwan's "fall" will obliterate US influence in the region, because US-allies do really form a "string," and their shipping lanes are instruments of their national security (conversely, America's Asian Pivot). America will risk going to war with China over Taiwan, otherwise it will wither away from Asia.
Taiwan is not and never has been a province of the People's Republic of China. Therefore it is incorrect to address the demanded unification of Taiwan with the PRC as "reunification" as Taiwan had never previously been a unified part of the PRC. In sum, therefore, what the Chinese Communist Party demands should properly be termed the unification of Taiwan with the PRC, not the reunification of Taiwan with the PRC. This is not just playing with semantics, there is a significant difference.
 
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CCP

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Re: Former general says China won't be afraid to use force & solve Tai

Taiwan is not and never has been a province of the People's Republic of China. Therefore it is incorrect to address the demanded unification of Taiwan with the PRC as "reunification" as Taiwan had never previously been a unified part of the PRC. In sum, therefore, what the Chinese Communist Party demands should properly be termed the unification of Taiwan with the PRC, not the reunification of Taiwan with the PRC. This is not just playing with semantics, there is a significant difference.

Well, there is nothing belongs to Republic of India before 1947.
 
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t_co

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Re: Former general says China won't be afraid to use force & solve Tai

Taiwan is not and never has been a province of the People's Republic of China.
Wrong. UN General Assembly Resolution 2758 recognizes the PRC as the successor state to the ROC, and, in 2007, the UN reaffirmed that Resolution 2758 means Taiwan is a part of the PRC.

To quote the UN: Rejecting the application on Tuesday, the UN cited its adherence to the One China policy agreed under the 1971 resolution, which acknowledges Taiwan is a part of China.

Therefore it is incorrect to address the demanded unification of Taiwan with the PRC as "reunification" as Taiwan had never previously been a unified part of the PRC. In sum, therefore, what the Chinese Communist Party demands should properly be termed the unification of Taiwan with the PRC, not the reunification of Taiwan with the PRC. This is not just playing with semantics, there is a significant difference.
It is reunification, as the ROC is the successor state to the Qing Dynasty, which held Taiwan; the ROC itself held Taiwan; and now the PRC holds legitimate sovereignty over Taiwan.
 

t_co

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Re: Former general says China won't be afraid to use force & solve Tai

Taiwan is an unsolvable, just like the Korean war, and Kashmir. The military stalemate is too perfect to break by either side. The only way PRC can dream of reintegrating Taiwan is if there's a massive public movement in Taiwan, which is in favor of reunification. Reintegration by force is not going to work. Taiwan's "fall" will obliterate US influence in the region, because US-allies do really form a "string," and their shipping lanes are instruments of their national security (conversely, America's Asian Pivot). America will risk going to war with China over Taiwan, otherwise it will wither away from Asia.
What you write is true in terms of the impact on the US Pivot to Asia, but much less true in how it won't work. China holds an overwhelming force advantage over Taiwan, and one that by 2025 would resemble the force advantage the US holds over Cuba.
 

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Re: Former general says China won't be afraid to use force & solve Tai

Wrong. UN General Assembly Resolution 2758 recognizes the PRC as the successor state to the ROC, and, in 2007, the UN reaffirmed that Resolution 2758 means Taiwan is a part of the PRC.

To quote the UN: Rejecting the application on Tuesday, the UN cited its adherence to the One China policy agreed under the 1971 resolution, which acknowledges Taiwan is a part of China.
Only under a UN resolution that


It is reunification, as the ROC is the successor state to the Qing Dynasty, which held Taiwan; the ROC itself held Taiwan; and now the PRC holds legitimate sovereignty over Taiwan.
So? Declarations of the PRC as the successor state to the ROC and as Taiwan as an integral part of the territory of the PRC under UN Resolutions are not legally binding under international law and need not be recognised by sovereign states. The PRC has never de facto or de jure ruled Taiwan nor has Taiwan ever been incorporated into the territory of the PRC. So no, it is not reunification but unification. And all the UN Resolutions in the world declaring Taiwan to be a part of the territory of the PRC cannot change that.

Quite possibly when the PRC invades Taiwan the UN will attempt to move a Resolution or Resolutions condemning the PRC for its aggression and declaring that the PRC's armed forces should cease offensive operations forthwith and withdraw. And doubtless, too, the PRC will veto such a Resolution or Resolutions. If by some strange chance such a Resolution or Resolutions are carried, doubtless the PRC will ignore such a Resolution or Resolutions, possibly stating that UN Resolutions are without legal force or effect. And such a statement would be right.

Wiki sums it up: Most experts consider most General Assembly resolutions to be non-binding. Articles 10 and 14 of the UN Charter refer to General Assembly as "recommendations"; the recommendatory nature of General Assembly resolutions has repeatedly been stressed by the International Court of Justice.
 
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Mad Indian

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Re: Former general says China won't be afraid to use force & solve Tai

Well, there is nothing belongs to Republic of India before 1947.
Nothing belonged to Commie China before 1949 either
 

tarunraju

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Re: Former general says China won't be afraid to use force & solve Tai

Taiwan is not and never has been a province of the People's Republic of China. Therefore it is incorrect to address the demanded unification of Taiwan with the PRC as "reunification" as Taiwan had never previously been a unified part of the PRC. In sum, therefore, what the Chinese Communist Party demands should properly be termed the unification of Taiwan with the PRC, not the reunification of Taiwan with the PRC. This is not just playing with semantics, there is a significant difference.
Hong Kong was never part of PRC prior to its reunification, and the UK never signed the HK treaty with PRC. And yet it returned to "China." You're mixing up "country" and "state." Taiwan may never have been part of the People's Republic of China, but it was part of China. The country was one, even if the state changed. It's just as true as Pakistan and Bangladesh being once parts of India (the country), although they were never part of the Republic of India (the state).

To preempt your "India was British Empire / a colony / nada nada" argument, as of 1946, if you had to write letters to your friends in Karachi or Dacca, your "To" address would end with "India." Today, if I'm writing to someone in Chongqing, the "To" address is more likely to end with with simply "China," than "People's Republic of China."
 
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Ray

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Re: Former general says China won't be afraid to use force & solve Tai

Hong Kong was amalgamated into China during the Qin dynasty and was consolidated under Nanyue.

The Convention of Chuenpee in 1841 drafted the cessation of Hong Kong to Great Britain to end the Opium War. However, it remained in draft form since it was not ratified.

The Treaty of Nanking was signed with the Qing Dynasty in Aug 1842 at the end of the Opium War ceding Hong Kong Island to the British Queen "in perpetuity.

In 1860, the colony was extended with the Kowloon peninsula and in 1898, the Second Convention of Peking further expanded the colony with the 99-year lease of the New Territories.

Hong Kong Island, thus, was in perpetuity i.e. till the end of time.

New Territories was leased for 99 years.
 

Redhawk

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Re: Former general says China won't be afraid to use force & solve Tai

Hong Kong was never part of PRC prior to its reunification, and the UK never signed the HK treaty with PRC. And yet it returned to "China." You're mixing up "country" and "state." Taiwan may never have been part of the People's Republic of China, but it was part of China. The country was one, even if the state changed. It's just as true as Pakistan and Bangladesh being once parts of India (the country), although they were never part of the Republic of India (the state).

To preempt your "India was British Empire / a colony / nada nada" argument, as of 1946, if you had to write letters to your friends in Karachi or Dacca, your "To" address would end with "India." Today, if I'm writing to someone in Chongqing, the "To" address is more likely to end with with simply "China," than "People's Republic of China."
I know what you mean: since Taiwan had been intermittently part of feudal or imperial China then we can speak of the reunification of China and Taiwan. But I would still contend that unification rather reunification is the more correct or accurate term as the situation has stood since 1949. Taiwan is not and never has been part of the PRC, which I stress, and is an entirely separate jurisdiction, and in fact had been separated from China in 1895 when it was ceded to Japan. Therefore there can be no reunification of the PRC with Taiwan as the PRC did not exist at the time of its separation from China in 1895. When Japan surrendered in Aug. 1945, Taiwan was still a part of the Japanese Empire and in Oct. 1945 it was retroceded to the Republic of China, some 4 years before the establishment of the PRC. The UN Resolutions of 1971 may declare the PRC the successor state to the Republic of China, and so Taiwan as a remnant of the ROC is considered a part of the territory of the PRC, and many countries may recognise this. But there is in fact no basis in international law for this assertion and it need not be recognised by sovereign states. Just because the UN says so does not make it so.
 
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Ray

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Re: Former general says China won't be afraid to use force & solve Tai

The True History of Taiwan

By Dr. Sim Kiantek
July 18, 2000
台灣國


What China Said in Its White Paper 1993

Taiwan was known as Yizhou (barbarian's island) or Liuqiu (Okinawa) in antiquities. Many historical records and annals documented the development of Taiwan by the Chinese people in earlier periods. References to this effect were to be found in ancient Chinese book written more than 1,700 years ago and several others written in later times. Since early seventeenth century the Chinese people began to step up the development of Taiwan. The numbers topped one hundred thousand at the end of the century. By 1893 their population exceeded 2.54 million. That was a 25-fold increase in 200 years.

They brought in a more advanced mode of production and settled the whole length and breadth of Taiwan. Thanks to the determined efforts and hard toil of the pioneers, the development of the island as a whole greatly accelerated. This was the historical fact of how Taiwan, like other parts of China, came to be opened up and settled by the Chinese people of various nationalities. >From the very beginning the Taiwan society derived from the source of Chinese cultural tradition. This basic fact had not changed even during the half century of Japanese occupation. The history of Taiwan's development is imbued with the blood, sweat, and ingenuity of the Chinese people.

What Is The Truth

1. Taiwanese are of Taiwan origin, not Chinese.
More than 10,000 years ago, the ancestors of modern Taiwanese were found in Taiwan which at that time was all mountain, so the Taiwanese ancestors are called mountain people. In the glacial epoch, some of the ancestors were driven south by the cold weather via seabed (it was dry at that time) to the Philippines, Malaysia and Indonesia.

About 7,000~8,000 years ago, the weather was warm again, the sea was full of water, with ocean currents flowing from South-East Asia to Japan via Taiwan. Some of the ancestors were drifted back to Taiwan, their homeland. Of course, many of them might carry the blood from South-East Asia due to hybrid. These ancestors were called Plain People because the majority of them lived in the plain areas after arriving in Taiwan.

In 1624, the Dutch invaded Taiwan, according to Dutch records, there were about 100,000 Taiwanese surrendered. In 1661, Koxinga took place of the Dutch, about 130,000~200,000 Taiwanese surrendered. Among them, there were 12,727 household units, about 40,000~60,000 Taiwanese were forced to be converted into the Han (the Chinese). These aboriginal were the first ones who were forced to give up their Taiwanese nationalities. In 1683, Ching, the Manchus, replaced Koxinga. In 1730, a report made by a general of Ching that surrendered Taiwanese were at least 600,000.

In 1756, the annual report came out with 660,147 men and women surrendered, they were aboriginal. In 1782 the population that surrendered was up to 912,900 and then 2.54 million in 1893. This 2.54 million was mentioned in the 1993 Chinese White Paper which treated them as Chinese. This was totally wrong, they were of Taiwanese origin. They grew as time went by. Their population was 6 million in 1943, and 21.5 million in 2000, among them, some are the offspring of Dutch or Chinese hybrid.

The pure Chinese came in 1949~1954 period, when Chiang Kai-shek fled to Taiwan with 0.94 million Chinese refugees, among them, only 0.21 million were female. Therefore, even if all female Chinese refugees married with male refugees, they could only create 0.42 million pure Chinese couples producing pure Chinese offspring, the rest 0.52 million had to look for Taiwanese to marry, thus Taiwanese blood occupied more than half the so-called Chinese. The population of Taiwan in 2000 is about 23 million, the pure Chinese are not more than 5%, about 95% of Taiwan's population today carries aboriginal blood. Some have 100% aboriginal blood, some have 10%, mostly have more than 50%.

2. The land of Taiwan was developed by Taiwanese not by Chinese.According to Ching regulation, Chinese were not allowed to come to Taiwan freely. When they came to Taiwan, they were not permitted to trespass the reserved areas, because, Ching reserved almost all of Taiwan for the aboriginal. According to the government statistics, the total free area was only 71,150 hectares, which was less than 2 % of the area of Taiwan.

Further, the Chinese were not able to resist the diseases in Taiwan, 9 out of 10 died, according to government records. Under such condition, Chinese dared not stay in the rural area. If they did not stay in the country side, who would cultivate the land? Only Taiwanese!

3. What were the Chinese in Taiwan during the Ching Era?
The majority Chinese in Taiwan were rascals, being single through out their lives, according to the government files. Most of them hide themselves in the urban area, lived on committing crimes. When they passed away, nobody dared to bury them.

The Chinese who came to Taiwan to "cultivate" actually were to deprive not to cultivate. They got the pieces of land by application. Through personal relations with the government officials or by bribe, they got the permit to cultivate the land in the appointed areas, usually hundreds or thousands hectares, a hectare is about 2.4 acres. It took at least 5 man/year to clear a hectare, and took one man to do the farming year around. If the Chinese got a thousand-hectare permit, they had to invite at least 1,000 tenants to rent, cultivate and do the farming. The profit for these Chinese guys after paying taxes was US$300~400 per hectare per year. As said before, the Chinese were not disease resisting, so most of the tenants were Taiwanese. Therefore, the true picture was, Taiwanese cultivated and Chinese got the profit which could be amounted to US$300,000~400,000 per year per person if the Chinese got the thousand-hectare permit.

4. The reason why Taiwanese are documented as Chinese.
Since 1624, Taiwan has being ruled by foreign regimes, such as, the Dutch, Koxinga, Ching, Japan, the Republic of China. All of the regimes were trying to convert Taiwanese into their nationals. Ching was successful, so the influence passed down to this day. When Ching occupied Taiwan in 1683, it adopted a policy called "To Convert The Wild Barbarians into The Civilized Barbarians" and then "To Convert The Civilized Barbarians into The Han (the Chinese)." The contents of the policy included discriminative practices such as higher taxes, longer free community services, unfair judicial judgements, for those resisting the conversion. No Taiwanese could live without being converted into Chinese. In 1683, the Ching still documented most Taiwanese as Wild Barbarians; in 1756, the status of the Taiwanese was changed to Civilized Barbarians; in 1777, all became Chinese. These historical records also evidenced the process of the compulsory conversion of Taiwanese into Chinese.

Since 1777, Taiwanese were documented as Chinese throughout the period of the Ching occupation. In 1895 when Japanese came, they tried to convert Taiwanese into Japanese but failed. In 1945, the Republic of China took advantage of the achievements of Ching policy, documented Taiwanese as Chinese with no resist. So even today, the poor Taiwanese would rather call themselves Chinese instead of aboriginal, since the term "aboriginal" implies wild or civilized barbarians.

The True History of Taiwan
 

tarunraju

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Re: Former general says China won't be afraid to use force & solve Tai

I know what you mean: since Taiwan had been intermittently part of feudal or imperial China then we can speak of the reunification of China and Taiwan. But I would still contend that unification rather reunification is the more correct or accurate term as the situation has stood since 1949.
That's still splitting hair because during the civil war, Taiwan was part of China.

Taiwan is not and never has been part of the PRC, which I stress, and is an entirely separate jurisdiction, so there can be no reunification of the PRC with Taiwan as the PRC did not exist at the time of its separation from China in 1895 when it was ceded to Japan.
Neither was Hong Kong. Yet it _reunified_ with PRC (the state) and China (the country).

When Japan surrendered in Aug. 1945, Taiwan was still a part of the Japanese Empire and in Oct. 1945 it was retroceded to the Republic of China, some 4 years before the establishment of the PRC.
Doesn't count. Taiwan was not "a part of" Imperial Japan, but a colony; just as India was not "a part of" the UK, but its colony. The basis for Taiwan getting ceded to China in 1945 was Taiwan being part of China.

The UN Resolutions of 1971 may make the PRC the successor state to the Republic of China, and so Taiwan as a remnant of the ROC is considered a part of the territory of the PRC, and many countries may recognise this. But there is in fact no basis in international law for this assertion. Just because the UN says so does not make it so.
Once again, you're mixing up "country" and "state."

Again, don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating reunification one way or the other. I'm just saying that you cannot change history. Taiwan was China. Taiwan considers itself "China" even today.
 
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Redhawk

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Re: Former general says China won't be afraid to use force & solve Tai

The KMT might still formally call Taiwan the Republic of China, but the majority of the Taiwanese themselves do not. As far as they are concerned, they are not Chinese citizens or nationals, they are Taiwanese.
 
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Redhawk

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Re: Former general says China won't be afraid to use force & solve Tai

That's still splitting hair because during the civil war, Taiwan was part of China.



Neither was Hong Kong. Yet it _reunified_ with PRC (the state) and China (the country).



Doesn't count. Taiwan was not "a part of" Imperial Japan, but a colony; just as India was not "a part of" the UK, but its colony. The basis for Taiwan getting ceded to China in 1945 was Taiwan being part of China.



Once again, you're mixing up "country" and "state."

Again, don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating reunification one way or the other. I'm just saying that you cannot change history. Taiwan was China. Taiwan considers itself "China" even today.
No, it is not splitting hairs, it is quite a valid distinction to be made. Taiwan was a part of the ROC during the civil war, not the PRC. HK is not Taiwan, though there are obvious parallels. And I am not confusing the country with the state. I am speaking in terms of two contending states. There is no legal compulsion under international law to recognise the PRC as the successor state to the ROC. There is no legal compulsion under international law to recognise Taiwan as a part of the territory of the PRC. Full stop. If a country wants to formally recognise the ROC on Taiwan, it is at perfectly liberty to do so.
 
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s002wjh

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Re: Former general says China won't be afraid to use force & solve Tai

The KMT might still formally call Taiwan the Republic of China, but the majority of the Taiwanese themselves do not. As far as they are concerned, they are not Chinese citizens or nationals, they are Taiwanese.
true most taiwanese dont want to be part of PRC right now. but remember in US civil war, the south dont want to be part of North either, yet the north force south to surrender. PRC and ROC are still in the state of Civil war, cease fire or peace treaty WAS never signed. This is just like US civil war, if Taiwan wasn't an island, PRC already has it by now. the only reason PRC didn't got taiwan because in 49 china dont have a navy.
 

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Re: Former general says China won't be afraid to use force & solve Tai

true most taiwanese dont want to be part of PRC right now. but remember in US civil war, the south dont want to be part of North either, yet the north force south to surrender. PRC and ROC are still in the state of Civil war, cease fire or peace treaty WAS never signed. This is just like US civil war, if Taiwan wasn't an island, PRC already has it by now. the only reason PRC didn't got taiwan because in 49 china dont have a navy.
It is true that a technical state of war still exists between the CCP and the KMT. I don't deny that. Taking Taiwan by armed force is the only way you are going to unify Taiwan with the PRC. So the world can look forward to the PRC's armed aggression and military offensive against Taiwan and the invasion of the island. If the PRC is so strong, what is it waiting for? Go in there and take it. Stop blathering about it.
 
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Ray

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Re: Former general says China won't be afraid to use force & solve Tai

Taking a country by a war i.e. Communist China capturing Taiwan would justify Russia retaking all the countries that became independent and are successor States of the USSR, , more so East Ukraine since that has a majority Russian speaking population.
 

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Re: Former general says China won't be afraid to use force & solve Tai

Taking a country by a war i.e. Communist China capturing Taiwan would justify Russia retaking all the countries that became independent and are successor States of the USSR, , more so East Ukraine since that has a majority Russian speaking population.
That's exactly what Putin wants to do: restore "the evil empire" of the Czars and the Soviet Union.
 

s002wjh

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Re: Former general says China won't be afraid to use force & solve Tai

It is true that a technical state of war still exists between the CCP and the KMT. I don't deny that. Taking Taiwan by armed force is the only way you are going to unify Taiwan with the PRC. So the world can look forward to the PRC's armed aggression and military offensive against Taiwan and the invasion of the island. If the PRC is so strong, what is it waiting for? Go in there and take it. Stop blathering about it.
PRC is not gonna use force unless taiwan announce independence. its gonna play smart by getting taiwan economy rely on china, furthermore if it invade taiwan, there will consequence due to sanction from other country, and forcibly occupy taiwan wont work too well. also the current relationship between taiwan and china is the warmest for a long time, there are estimate millions mainland tourist in taiwan every year, and china is the biggest trader for taiwan. these things will eventually lead taiwan depend on china, basically taiwan become a puppet state of china if this continue.

everyone talk about china military etc etc, true their strength is raising rapidly but its their softpower they are using to accomplish their goal, at least right now.
 

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Re: Former general says China won't be afraid to use force & solve Tai

That's exactly what Putin wants to do: restore "the evil empire" of the Czars and the Soviet Union.
i disagree, if Ukrine was friendly to russia, then i dont see this Ukrine issue happen right now. but because Ukrine want to Join Nato, thats something russia wont allow. Russia will not allow nato force sitting right at their doorstep, and control the best strategic warm water port at Crimea in black sea. If russia allow it then its like Mexico join Warsaw in the cold war, and we dont even allow USSR station missile in cuban, let along an ally of USSR in our backyard. Its about strategic balance in east europe between Nato vs russia. We call them wrong/evil, because we consider them as potential enemy, in russia they consider us the same way. frankly i dont want push russia over the edge, thats how war started. If the situation were reversed, we will likely do the same.
the ukrine issue push russia closer to china more than before, both seen US as potential enemy
 
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