Finmeccanica Ban May Prove Costly For India: UK Minister

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by WolfPack86, May 31, 2016.

  1. WolfPack86

    WolfPack86 Senior Member Senior Member

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    [​IMG]
    The Eurofighter Typhoon is a twin-engine, canard-delta wing, multirole fighter manufactured by a consortium of three companies, Alenia Aermacchi, Airbus Group and BAE Systems. Alenia Aermacchi is a subsidiary of Leonardo-Finmeccanica’s Aircraft and Aerostructures Divisions
    There are companies within Finmeccanica group that make extremely good aircraft, says U.K.
    India’s decision to ban Italian defence conglomerate Finmeccanica and its subsidiaries from bidding for defence contracts drew a strong response from the United Kingdom on Monday, with its key interlocutor hinting at the Indian military losing out on some cutting-edge military hardware.
    U.K. Minister Hugo Swire speaks to The Hindu in New Delhi on Monday
    “There are some companies within the Finmeccanica group that make extremely good aircraft, which I know have been of past interest to the Indian Air Force. What happens in terms of India’s procurement is up to India. But we obviously believe that the United Kingdom makes some products that may be of interest to India,” Hugo Swire, Minister of State in Charge of Foreign and Commonwealth Office, told The Hindu in an exclusive interview. He did not go into the details of the ban the Ministry of Defence is considering against the Finmeccanica as the case involves policy decisions of the government. The ban is likely to affect all its subsidiary companies as well.

    Sri Lanka & Human Rights

    Mr. Swire discussed the issue of U.K. citizens in Tamil Nadu jails as well as the immediate issue of human rights in Sri Lanka during discussions that lasted over an hour with Minister of State for External Affairs Gen. V.K. Singh. “I will travel to Chennai tomorrow [on Tuesday] and will meet the Chief Minister,” he said referring to the issue of ex-soldiers from the U.K. who are in a prison in Tamil Nadu.
    Supporting the international approach to the human rights situation in Sri Lanka, Mr. Swire said President Maithripala Sirisena and Prime Minister Ranil Wickremesinghe were yet to fulfil the commitments they made to the international community.
    Mr. Swire said the political deadlock in Nepal was of significance to the U.K. “We are a huge donor of aid to Nepal and have a very strong link through the Gurkhas who serve in the British Army. So we want the government of Nepal to be a comprehensive government which takes into account different parts of Nepal and brings stability to the country so that they can bring economic stability,” Mr. Swire said.
    Highlighting security and regional cooperation in South Asia, Mr. Swire said the rise of terrorism in Bangladesh was of concern to the U.K.
    “We spend a lot of money in Bangladesh and we can work together to contain the threats, but obviously we have some problems in Bangladesh.”
    Mr. Swire said the U.K. was interested in ensuring that the ruling of the UNCLOS should be adhered to regarding the South China Sea. “Rules-based international system is an incredibly important thing, not least for the South China Sea where a huge percentage of global shipping passes through at any given time,” he said.
    http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/05/finmeccanica-ban-may-prove-costly-for.html
     
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  3. WolfPack86

    WolfPack86 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Finmeccanica row: ‘Ban may prove costly for India’
    There are companies within Finmeccanica group that make extremely good aircraft, says U.K.

    India’s decision to ban Italian defence conglomerate Finmeccanica and its subsidiaries from bidding for defence contracts drew a strong response from the United Kingdom on Monday, with its key interlocutor hinting at the Indian military losing out on some cutting-edge military hardware.

    “There are some companies within the Finmeccanica group that make extremely good aircraft, which I know have been of past interest to the Indian Air Force. What happens in terms of India’s procurement is up to India. But we obviously believe that the United Kingdom makes some products that may be of interest to India,” Hugo Swire, Minister of State in Charge of Foreign and Commonwealth Office, told The Hindu in an exclusive interview. He did not go into the details of the ban the Ministry of Defence is considering against the Finmeccanica as the case involves policy decisions of the government. The ban is likely to affect all its subsidiary companies as well.
    http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/finmeccanica-ban-may-prove-costly-for-india/article8668819.ece
     
  4. Neelkanth

    Neelkanth Regular Member

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    So A lot of Sub Systems aboard our Ships, some Rafale Components, and Some tech on board our ships will not have defensive capabilities other than CWIS. Good Going MOD instead of seeking penalties, and punishing the guilty. Punish the Company. Bravo.
    .
    So if they find the Tetley is bribing their officials to but their awful tea, Ban the Entire Tata Group, Hows that ?
     
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  5. WolfPack86

    WolfPack86 Senior Member Senior Member

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    [​IMG]
    The Eurofighter Typhoon is a twin-engine, canard-delta wing, multirole fighter manufactured by a consortium of three companies, Alenia Aermacchi, Airbus Group and BAE Systems. Alenia Aermacchi is a subsidiary of Leonardo-Finmeccanica’s Aircraft and Aerostructures Divisions.

    If Eurofighter Typhoon is manufactured by Alenia Aermacchi then Eurofighter Typhoon do not chance in make in india fighter aircraft since it is banned by Government only option left is F-18 Advance Super Hornet.
     
  6. prateikf

    prateikf Regular Member

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    We have shot ourselves in the foot once again by banning the Italian defence major. The ban will be counterproductive and harm our armed forces just as the ban on bofors, denel and HDW sent our defence capabilities back by decades. If a Tata group company for eg: Taj hotels commits a mistake will we ban the entire Tata group. Besides the Indian investigators have not been able to find out who received the money and have not punished a single person but have instead banned an entire defence conglomerate. This will lead to huge time and cost overruns for our existing defence products. Very bad decision by Parrikar led MOD. Reminiscent of the dark days under Antony.
     
  7. sob

    sob Moderator Moderator

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    this is an attempt to black mail the Indian Government.

    If they want business with India then they should mend their ways and adopt to the new system.

    Please note that ban is restricted to purchase of new systems. It does not cover purchase of spares and any other upgradation work.
     
  8. sob

    sob Moderator Moderator

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    @Neelkanth @prateikf the analogy of Tata Group companies does not hold good.

    The ban is for all the Group companies dealing in Defence. If there is some company not dealing in defence then there is no issue.
     
  9. Navnit Kundu

    Navnit Kundu Pika Hu Akbarrr!! Senior Member

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    The article's title and the content are contradictory. This is just yellow journalism. Nowhere did he say that "it will prove costly to India", on the contrary he said :

    “There are some companies within the Finmeccanica group that make extremely good aircraft, which I know have been of past interest to the Indian Air Force. What happens in terms of India’s procurement is up to India.”

    'The Hindu' is just up to its old trick of exaggerated atrocity literature. I'm beginning to think that if a random pedestrian bumps into a 'The Hindu' reporter on the streets, that reporter comes home and starts writing an article titled "How I was murdered twice today".

    These fifth-column brown coolies are doing the job of delivering the threat on behalf of their western masters so that if a controversy erupts, the diplomat can easily seek insulation from diplomatic criticism by claiming that he never said anything of that sort and it was the reporter who bears responsibility for irresponsible journalism, and even the journalist would stand up to take the blame. It is for this plausible deniability that these journalists are paid hefty sums.

    Obviously, neither The Hindu nor UK are our well wishers; We will do whatever is in our interest, we don't need advice from them on how our procurement should work. The UK minister should be made to answer some embarrassing questions about why UK soldiers are lodged in Indian jails for their involvement in the LTTE insurgency. That would happen only if the so called 'reputed journalist' from The Hindu had the guts to pursue some real journalism and ask real questions, instead of serving the purpose of a one way broadcast medium for whatever his white masters want to broadcast.

    @Neelkanth The Indian civilization does not sink on account of not buying shiny torpedo from Europe. Unfortunately, that is exactly the narrative that the paid media is trying to create. Consider the possibility that we might have achieved self reliance in torpedoes, and therefore we might not be in a hurry to announce our capabilities, so we keep the foreign weapons contracts hanging instead of revealing our indigenous capability. We did that with helicopters, and Tejas too. We made the west believe that we are going to place multi-billion dollar orders for helicopters and jets, but in the end we purchased Dhruvs, Rudras, LCH, Tejas and SU30MKI and left the west high and dry. The west was drooling in the hopes that India will scrap our entire indigenous aerospace industry to buy their overpriced crap. It's the same with these torpedoes.

    Besides, the UK keeps barking that India should be spending money to feed the poor people shitting in the streets of India instead of wasting it on space launches. Then why do they want to sell expensive weapons to India? are they not worried about all the poor, hungry people of India now?
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2016
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  10. Tactical Frog

    Tactical Frog Regular Member

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    That is crazyness .. what about the radars from Selex ?? Selex Sistemi belongs to Finmecanica. They were selected for INS Vikrant radar !
     
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  11. Navnit Kundu

    Navnit Kundu Pika Hu Akbarrr!! Senior Member

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    Feel free to point out what "this" means when you say "this is crazyness"? The article hardly mentions any details for you to get so worked up about. If you dig deeper and find out the details from the interview which the Indian Defense Minister gave clarifying about the ban, you won't have any doubts in the first place.

    The ongoing commitments remain, only new commitments will be affected. India has paid for certain systems, and the companies are obliged to provide what we have paid them for. The ban simply means that we wont be buying any new systems from their defense subsidiaries. The ban does not apply to their civilian subsidiaries.
     
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  12. Tactical Frog

    Tactical Frog Regular Member

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  13. prateikf

    prateikf Regular Member

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    What would be the effects of this ban on our defence preparedness? We were in the process of buying Radars, ottomerala 127mm guns, torpedoes, besides many other items. The ban would lead to few other choices, who would then quote very high prices for their products. Besides it would lead to death of Modi's Make in India campaign. Why would any foreign company invest in a place where deals are cancelled and find themselves blacklisted without any evidence.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2016
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  14. Navnit Kundu

    Navnit Kundu Pika Hu Akbarrr!! Senior Member

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    Let me first get one thing out of the way, since we belong to different nationalities our interest's don't necessarily coincide. That is the little nuance which you are missing. What worries you need not worry me and vice versa, so keep that worrying part to yourself. Since you are making arguments from the the seller's point of view, I am making arguments from the buyer's point of view, we are obviously not on the same page. The ban is clear : If India has paid money to any banned company, then the company is obliged to deliver that system; If a system was selected but no payment was made, then the deal is cancelled and the company is blacklisted for further participation in Indian competitions.

    So, for the Sistemi radar, if the payment was not made by India then the deal is obviously off. If India had paid for the radar then the company shall deliver the radar, and it will be their last delivery, after which the ban will come in total effect.
     
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  15. Neelkanth

    Neelkanth Regular Member

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    I guess penalizing the company for the acts of individuals is wrong. You can penalize them and in defense, the number of vendors is limited.

    The analogy was used not in a literal sense. Finmecca is not a corrupt organization or a Mafia, it has corrupt individuals who can be prosecuted and company penalized but to stop them from doing honest business from now on limits the Govt's Negotiation capacity as others foreign vendors might jack up prices for lesser number of competitors.

    Finamecca owns a number of Subsidiaries and sells a lot of diversified equipment. defense deals and other deals are exactly what they are called its a business deal. If there is evidence of wrong doing in deal, cancel the said deal but blacklisting an organization is not done. There are a number of people who earn an do a honest living working for the company, its like blacklisting an entire company as if it is a criminal Organization. which it is not.
     
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  16. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Finmeccanica has to go, It gained lot of power during former government reign, so does Russians ..
     
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  17. garg_bharat

    garg_bharat Senior Member Senior Member

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    People who are not decision makers simply do not realize the repercussions of getting into a messy contract. Even if the officer is totally honest, he can be trapped by these cunning foreigners and their accomplices right here in india.

    Nobody knows what else will blow up. There is zero confidence about certain entities.
     
  18. smestarz

    smestarz Senior Member Senior Member

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    Guess the orders will now go to American, Israeli, French or Russian companies.
    Biggest losers UK and Italy
     
  19. smestarz

    smestarz Senior Member Senior Member

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    There is already evidence of Finnmecanica and its executives as being involved in kickbacks at least in VVIP chopper scam, else why suddenly it was so important to rename the company?

    YES, it might set India back a bit, but also remember when last time India did pokhran testing and we were sanctioned, that is when India started much of its indigenous projects.

    Also, Finnmecanica was well aware of the repercussion of employing middlemen or paying kickbacks in Indian deals and yet when they did it, it means they knew there was a risk but the profits were tempting or at least they thought the profits were worth the risk. I think its a set back but there are many companies that can provide the systems that were lost due to this Sanction,

    One silver linking, we are now sure that IAF will not be buying Eurofighter Typhoon.

     
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  20. smestarz

    smestarz Senior Member Senior Member

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    What you say is true, that its individuals who are involved, but it is the individuals who make the company dont they? The performance of the individuals bring in profit or loss or delays.

    Further, look who was involved, It was the CEO and the top leadership who provide the vision and direction.which then reflects on profit or loss and that reflects on stock price, so, how come they are not involved?

    Let the individual companies just seperate themselves from Finnmecanica totally would they be strong for that?

    Just a vague example, if you are shot through the leg and though your other parts are fine, try running at full speed for say 30 minutes and see what happens.

    As I said if the top leadership was involved because they saw the profits were worth the risk and the risk was theirs, its not that they did not know of Indian laws before, we have black listed many companies in past also.

    So, then maybe one solution is that Finnmecanica then sells Selex to some other international company and then selex still manages to fulfill its business. Would they do that??


     
  21. smestarz

    smestarz Senior Member Senior Member

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    The tip has just surfaced there is a more bigger ice berg to come.
    .
     

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